1. #9121
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The thing that you quoted that you called a straw man wasn’t something I attributed to anyone else.

    That makes your straw man accusation…..a strawman.
    You don't have to attribute something you made up to someone in particular in order for it to be a strawman. You claiming the extreme position that "people" were "super excited about this nothing majority" when it's patently untrue is already the strawman.

    If you're referring to the second instance, then you're either mistakenly or deliberately forgetting the part you wrote leading up to Edge's quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The repubs screwing with voter rights so they can increase their odds of winning future elections is proof that having a thin majority in the Senate even though cannot pass voter protections is awesome?
    Second strawman. Nobody said that nor suggested anything similar.

    You continue to forward the notion that people on these forums are enthusiastically happy about the slim Democrat majority in the Senate despite big legislation like HR1 being stalled due to Manchin and that's ridiculous. Nobody's happy about it (well, apart from the resident Trumpers who get themselves banned regularly when they can't help themselves any longer). The most people have said is that, if we can't get the big things through, then at least we can get some small-ticket items passed--and keep the GOP from passing further federal legislation that harms the nation or, as has been the case for the past several years, completely stonewalling anything the Democrats want brought to the floor. That's not nothing.

    None of us are saying things are great, and we're all aware that what the GOP are doing in certain states is awful (and probably something that's going to continue to draw lawsuits and an eventual SCOTUS ruling), but some of us are trying to salvage the small positives. The alternative is...what? Just ranting about how things aren't fair or things would have been different "if"? I asked before but you didn't reply: What do you propose should be done given that there's no real way of getting around Manchin? Threatening to primary him would backfire given that he's likely the only (D) you'll see elected Senator from West Virginia precisely because he's almost too conservative to call himself a Democrat. There aren't any GOP Senators who are likely to vote along with the Dems on these issues (though I'm sure Collins will remain very concerned). What, besides focusing on the 2022 Senate/House races the Dems have a better than average chance of flipping, should the Dems be doing right now that they aren't?

  2. #9122
    Stood in the Fire tehdang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Oh fucking stop it.

    I am talking about right now. The republicans are assaulting voting rights across the country. That is a direct and literal attack on the democratic foundation of this country.

    I’m not falling your both sides bullshit, and neither is anyone else.
    Both sides bullshit is identical to declaring your well-intentioned fixes of the totally corrupt system has no chance to end like everybody else that had the same diagnosis and used it to justify their radical cure.

    I am talking about right now.
    Which is why I said you're ignoring history (people who talk only of right now tend to do this) and ignoring the future (people who talk of only right now and problems right now tend to ignore the future).

    So stop repeating every revolutionary's tired tripe like you're not the eleven billionth person to reject conventional means with the same exact "corrupt system" "my enemies must be stopped because it'll be too late if we do it the right way"
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  3. #9123
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    You don't have to attribute something you made up to someone in particular in order for it to be a strawman. You claiming the extreme position that "people" were "super excited about this nothing majority" when it's patently untrue is already the strawman.

    If you're referring to the second instance, then you're either mistakenly or deliberately forgetting the part you wrote leading up to Edge's quote:



    Second strawman. Nobody said that nor suggested anything similar.

    You continue to forward the notion that people on these forums are enthusiastically happy about the slim Democrat majority in the Senate despite big legislation like HR1 being stalled due to Manchin and that's ridiculous. Nobody's happy about it (well, apart from the resident Trumpers who get themselves banned regularly when they can't help themselves any longer). The most people have said is that, if we can't get the big things through, then at least we can get some small-ticket items passed--and keep the GOP from passing further federal legislation that harms the nation or, as has been the case for the past several years, completely stonewalling anything the Democrats want brought to the floor. That's not nothing.

    None of us are saying things are great, and we're all aware that what the GOP are doing in certain states is awful (and probably something that's going to continue to draw lawsuits and an eventual SCOTUS ruling), but some of us are trying to salvage the small positives. The alternative is...what? Just ranting about how things aren't fair or things would have been different "if"? I asked before but you didn't reply: What do you propose should be done given that there's no real way of getting around Manchin? Threatening to primary him would backfire given that he's likely the only (D) you'll see elected Senator from West Virginia precisely because he's almost too conservative to call himself a Democrat. There aren't any GOP Senators who are likely to vote along with the Dems on these issues (though I'm sure Collins will remain very concerned). What, besides focusing on the 2022 Senate/House races the Dems have a better than average chance of flipping, should the Dems be doing right now that they aren't?
    It’s not patently untrue. People have been super excited about the nothing majority. So fucking excited in fact, that you guys have been arguing with me for fucking days, because I wasn’t excited enough about it.

    Also, one more fucking time, you Bengaul, quoted a portion of my post to call that portion a straw man, and it wasn’t. Since you’ve been trying to pretend you didn’t make the specific fuck up, but you did. Admit it and move on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Ignorance of history is not a defense. You're walking the well traveled road of accusing the system of being corrupt and that justifying extraordinary actions.


    It's them that are breaking the rules, I want to restore them. Small actions won't work.


    Restate, they did this first, which justifies my actions to correct


    The system is already corrupt, so no care needs to be taken to preserve anything in it.


    You're really blind to breaking norms in order to fix them, moaning how they broke them first. Your policy of ignoring history and ignoring the future for momentary relief is a perfect scheme to correct nothing and make it all worse.
    1. I’m not ignoring nor am I ignorant of history. Historically, assaulting voting rights leads to facism.

    2. You are hung up on who did what first. You are doing that because you know your side is the side being evil right now and instead of having the intestinal fortitude to change sides, your trying baffle with bullshit.

    The only side that is trying to keep people from voting in democratic elections is the right. Until that is solved I don’t need you trying make yourself feel better about your shitty ideological choices.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #9124
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It’s not patently untrue. People have been super excited about the nothing majority. So fucking excited in fact, that you guys have been arguing with me for fucking days, because I wasn’t excited enough about it.

    Also, one more fucking time, you Bengaul, quoted a portion of my post to call that portion a straw man, and it wasn’t. Since you’ve been trying to pretend you didn’t make the specific fuck up, but you did. Admit it and move on.
    Wrong again on all counts (including the spelling of my handle--I mean, c'mon man, it's right there) as I pointed out in my previous post, but thanks for once again ignoring the question and proving you both 1) don't know what you're talking about and 2) aren't interested in discussing actual solutions anyway. Toodles, chuckles.

  5. #9125
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Wrong again on all counts (including the spelling of my handle--I mean, c'mon man, it's right there) as I pointed out in my previous post, but thanks for once again ignoring the question and proving you both 1) don't know what you're talking about and 2) aren't interested in discussing actual solutions anyway. Toodles, chuckles.
    Pathetic. Now you’re crying about me misspelling your screen name.

    I don’t have an answer but I also didn’t try propose one. All I said was that this majority is essentially meaningless and then you and a few others couldn’t handle that. So either you’re super fucking happy about the toothless majority or you decided bust my chops because you’re bored or an asshole or something.

    I’m not wrong about that, or about you not understanding what a strawman is.

    I did misspell your scree name so you can have that one.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2021-06-15 at 07:28 PM.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  6. #9126
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    All I said was that this majority is essentially meaningless and then you and a few others couldn’t handle that. So either you’re super fucking happy about the toothless majority or you decided bust my chops because you’re bored or an asshole or something.
    None of that is true. So, you're making up a statement to argue against. Therefore: Strawman.

    I was also joking about the handle, but I guess I shouldn't have assumed that was painfully obvious in this case.

  7. #9127
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    None of that is true. So, you're making up a statement to argue against. Therefore: Strawman.
    Quit lying. That is precisely why this argument fucking happened.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  8. #9128
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Quit lying. That is precisely why this argument fucking happened.
    What argument? You stated that people here were over the moon about the slim majority and that was obviously false given that practically everyone in here has been pretty much in "make the most of a bad situation" mode. You claimed that since people were over the moon then obviously it was okay that the GOP were screwing voting rights the nation over. That's a strawman. So then on top of the strawman you spent a great deal of time and effort complaining about...how everyone's not complaining about things as much as you? And you don't have any better ideas for how to go forward? There's no argument.

    But in the interest of not derailing the thread further and wasting my time (and for others who are having to scroll through this drek) I'll just shrug my shoulders, assume you had a bad day and are just lashing out at everything irrationally and end my part of the back and forth here.

  9. #9129
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    What argument? You stated that people here were over the moon about the slim majority and that was obviously false given that practically everyone in here has been pretty much in "make the most of a bad situation" mode. You claimed that since people were over the moon then obviously it was okay that the GOP were screwing voting rights the nation over. That's a strawman. So then on top of the strawman you spent a great deal of time and effort complaining about...how everyone's not complaining about things as much as you? And you don't have any better ideas for how to go forward? There's no argument.

    But in the interest of not derailing the thread further and wasting my time (and for others who are having to scroll through this drek) I'll just shrug my shoulders, assume you had a bad day and are just lashing out at everything irrationally and end my part of the back and forth here.
    Go back and read it. You jumped in on a part of it and then are telling that’s all that happened. That’s not my fault or my responsibility. Stop being a punk and liar and go back to the beginning.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #9130
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    your average GOP voter hates the rich and corporations. They're willing to ignore that for a self-made man (not woman) but that's about it.
    I agree with the general idea you're going for, except this part.

    They're willing to ignore it for a Republican.

    Mitt Romney was rich. It was a campaign issue. Trump claimed to be rich. He was definitely not self-made, he just claimed he was. Pedophile Gaetz was caught trying to buy an escape boat.

    GOP voters like guns and hate abortions. They'll follow whoever promises to do the same, even if they stiff their employees and cheat on their wives with whores.

    I agree that a lot of GOP voters claim to hate elites. They are just willing to drop it in a heartbeat if the elite says "We need more God in schools"

  11. #9131
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I agree with the general idea you're going for, except this part.

    They're willing to ignore it for a Republican.

    Mitt Romney was rich. It was a campaign issue. Trump claimed to be rich. He was definitely not self-made, he just claimed he was. Pedophile Gaetz was caught trying to buy an escape boat.

    GOP voters like guns and hate abortions. They'll follow whoever promises to do the same, even if they stiff their employees and cheat on their wives with whores.

    I agree that a lot of GOP voters claim to hate elites. They are just willing to drop it in a heartbeat if the elite says "We need more God in schools"
    You’re not wrong but there’s an enthusiasm gap that can be noticeable. Trump branded himself a self made man. He’s a Man of the People. He made it through hard work. He works as hard as you do.

    Of course he’s a spoiled rich kid, a Hollywood pedophile, serial fraudster and never turned down a spoonful of Adderall.

    Compare him to Ted Cruz. Cruz at least worked for what he got and he managed to make an honest shot at the Presidency even though everyone hates him. Including his supporters. That’s the American Dream right there.

    Reagan and Bush2 also have the unearned Man of the People vibe.

    All Dems are by default the “Elite”. Only some GOP are the same.

  12. #9132
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Compare him to Ted Cruz.
    I see your point. It's just fun to point out how little that "I hate the elites" is worth when, say, closing polling places in African-American locations is at stake.

  13. #9133
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I see your point. It's just fun to point out how little that "I hate the elites" is worth when, say, closing polling places in African-American locations is at stake.
    Well it does mean that the GOP still was to straddle a line for their candidates. Some people are harder to sell than others. Roy Moore found that out the hard way.

  14. #9134
    The Biden/Harris administration doesn't need to be discussed anymore. Nothing is going to get done until they sort President Manchin and VP Sinema out. If anything, they're more damaging to the Democratic Party's agenda than Trump or FOX or the GOP Senate/House ever was. Because they're happily obstructing their own party. The 2022 mid terms are going to be hilarious. The Dems need to not only maintain the house and senate, but expand their majority in the latter to override Manchin and Sinema's chokehold on key policy. Short version is it doesn't look good.

  15. #9135
    Putin showed up for his meeting with Biden before Biden even left the hotel. Putin is pretty much never the first to arrive for these things. Trump, for instance, was made to wait like a good boy for over an hour when they met in Helsinki.

  16. #9136
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    The Biden/Harris administration doesn't need to be discussed anymore. Nothing is going to get done until they sort President Manchin and VP Sinema out. If anything, they're more damaging to the Democratic Party's agenda than Trump or FOX or the GOP Senate/House ever was. Because they're happily obstructing their own party. The 2022 mid terms are going to be hilarious. The Dems need to not only maintain the house and senate, but expand their majority in the latter to override Manchin and Sinema's chokehold on key policy. Short version is it doesn't look good.
    I just hope we can relpace Rubio next year. I know its wishful thinking since we replaced Nelson with a criminal like Scott.

  17. #9137
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Putin showed up for his meeting with Biden before Biden even left the hotel. Putin is pretty much never the first to arrive for these things
    This is true.

    I remember him being a late comer to the NATO summit held in 2008 in my country. Putin likes to be unpredictable and keep world leaders guessing, but crucially on the domestic front he really wants things to be predictable and stable.

    So who knows, himself showing up early and Biden arriving 15 minutes later might reflect what Putin really wants: A stable and predictable relationship between Russia and US, not some Cold War 2.0 or some naïve reset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    The Biden/Harris administration doesn't need to be discussed anymore. Nothing is going to get done until they sort President Manchin and VP Sinema out. If anything, they're more damaging to the Democratic Party's agenda than Trump or FOX or the GOP Senate/House ever was. Because they're happily obstructing their own party. The 2022 mid terms are going to be hilarious. The Dems need to not only maintain the house and senate, but expand their majority in the latter to override Manchin and Sinema's chokehold on key policy. Short version is it doesn't look good.
    People need to stop dreaming of this delusion that every US presidential election is going to some major transformative event, it never will be and especially not with a 4 seat majority for Pelosi in the House and a tied Senate.

    The best Biden could ever hope for is to get some of the things he wants through reconciliation and some of his budget desires. The same both Obama and Trump got.

    Anything else is just progressive delusions on the same level that hardcore rightwing delusions were under Trump. For what it is worth that stimulus package that he passed earlier this year is a fairly significant affair: The US will recover very well from the pandemic thanks to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryctos View Post
    I just hope we can relpace Rubio next year. I know its wishful thinking since we replaced Nelson with a criminal like Scott.
    Florida is a red state. In no small part because Dems have no clue how to run their local affairs there. Trump won it twice, Republicans control every statewide officer except AG commissioner. Time for people to accept that reality. The future for the Democratic party having a majority lies in places like Georgia, Arizona and North Carolina.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2021-06-16 at 01:21 PM.
    "Life is one long series of problems to solve. The more you solve, the better a man you become.... Tribulations spawn in life and over and over again we must stand our ground and face them."

  18. #9138
    Elemental Lord KuerbisgeschmackShake's Avatar
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    Confirmed 4 federal judges to lifetime appointments, passed a massive $250B science and technology R&D out of the Senate with bipartisan support, and just got unanimous consent to make Juneteenth a Federal Holiday.

  19. #9139
    its a sad state of affairs that the american rescue plan is popular, has caused an eonomic boom, has gotten ZERO republican votes. and yet republicans will win again claiming to be "populist" while also blocking infrastructure that 70% of people support. I understand low income people hate dems on like social issues but at some point shouldnt material policy matter?
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/blog/...d-wage-growth/
    "In April 2020, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that year-over-year growth in average hourly earnings skyrocketed to about 8 percent—the highest observed since the series began in 2006"
    dems need to be messaging , hey those higher wages your getting paid? thats us and republicans all are against it
    Last edited by arandomuser; 2021-06-16 at 03:08 PM.

  20. #9140
    Quote Originally Posted by arandomuser View Post
    its a sad state of affairs that the american rescue plan is popular, has caused an eonomic boom, has gotten ZERO republican votes. and yet republicans will win again claiming to be "populist" while also blocking infrastructure that 70% of people support. I understand low income people hate dems on like social issues but at some point shouldnt material policy matter?
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/blog/...d-wage-growth/
    "In April 2020, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that year-over-year growth in average hourly earnings skyrocketed to about 8 percent—the highest observed since the series began in 2006"
    dems need to be messaging , hey those higher wages your getting paid? thats us and republicans all are against it

    - - - Updated - - -



    that suprises me, i guess hawley didnt show up to block it?
    Idk if he was in attendance, but it passed via unanimous consent.

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