1. #9121
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Yet the fact remains many socialist policies ARE SUPPORTED by the right but not the people they elect. Don’t you already see this with manchin?
    The right wing hate "elites". Not as much as they hate black people, hispanics, women, jews, muslims and LGBQT but they still hate "elites". Almost everyone hates their boss (who is "elite") but its never has more depth than that. More importantly they're more than willing to endure discomfort if it means the people they hate have it worse. The people they elect reflect that. If they genuinely cared they would've voted for those socialist policies. Would you prefer it if America elected a bunch of politicians who claimed they were for left wing economic policies but were racist as fuck?

  2. #9122
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The right wing hate "elites". Not as much as they hate black people, hispanics, women, jews, muslims and LGBQT but they still hate "elites". Almost everyone hates their boss (who is "elite") but its never has more depth than that. More importantly they're more than willing to endure discomfort if it means the people they hate have it worse. The people they elect reflect that. If they genuinely cared they would've voted for those socialist policies. Would you prefer it if America elected a bunch of politicians who claimed they were for left wing economic policies but were racist as fuck?
    Frankly, this is just not accurate.

    The right wing love elites. They love particular elites. They love rich businessmen, in particular, as long as those businessmen are exploitative and abusive, and ideally gasbags to boot. That's why Trump garnered so much support. Why they love oil barons and mine owners. And so on.

    What they dislike are educated people. So, generally, academic "elites", because shitting on the sociology professor who makes $100k/year makes them feel strong, even as they're lubing up in support for the oil magnate worth hundreds of millions. They don't establish "elite" based on class, but education.

    The only time they hate on the wealthy is if those wealthy dare to be progressive, and then they see that as not just an enemy, but a betrayer. That's why there's so much venom for "Hollywood elites"; the right wing thinks they should be on their side, but they aren't, and that makes the right wing furious.

  3. #9123
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Yet the fact remains many socialist policies ARE SUPPORTED by the right but not the people they elect. Don’t you already see this with manchin?
    And voters in Florida supported a minimum wage increase but in the same election went for Trump because they had been sufficiently lied to that Biden was a secret socialist puppet of AOC and Bernie.

    Voters don’t always vote for their best interests. Especially in conservative areas and especially when it comes to representatives.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #9124
    Immortal Milchshake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    And voters in Florida supported a minimum wage increase but in the same election went for Trump because they had been sufficiently lied to that Biden was a secret socialist puppet of AOC and Bernie.

    Voters don’t always vote for their best interests. Especially in conservative areas and especially when it comes to representatives.
    It's like the the past 12+ years of elections (not polls) have affirmed the supremacy of Identity Politics among the US electorate.

    It's a huge part of poking fun at Cosplay Socialists. Coming from the Skeptic/Hipster communities. They think they're above IdPol(their word). Sorry sweaties, but your in deep like the rest of us.

    Yelling the "Dems have BETRayed uS!" every other week:
    • Is more an identity, not a policy.
    • Is basically the Fox News byline for the past 20 years, enjoy the company sweaties.
    • Is basically a form of soft voter suppression. A variation of Dinesh D'Sousa's "Dems are the Real Racists" schtick. Like Dinesh, podcasters have learned this earns a steady six-figure income.
    • Tune into tomorrow's podcast. Where we feed your anxiety .. with more anxiety.

  5. #9125
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Frankly, this is just not accurate.

    The right wing love elites. They love particular elites. They love rich businessmen, in particular, as long as those businessmen are exploitative and abusive, and ideally gasbags to boot. That's why Trump garnered so much support. Why they love oil barons and mine owners. And so on.
    No. They hate the elites. Despise them in fact. Which is why every GOP politician tries to paint themselves as a man of the people. There are some they hate more than others (ex Hollywood) but your average GOP voter hates the rich and corporations. They're willing to ignore that for a self-made man (not woman) but that's about it.

  6. #9126
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Where the fuck are you guys getting this from?

    He is literally the most contrarian senator in the entire senate that votes against his party the most he isn't a fucking Romeny... HE'S WORSE since he sides with Republicans NEARLY SIX TIMES MORE than Romney does with Democrats.

    And McCain? He voted counter to republicans less than Romney...
    Key points: The average GOP voted against their party at less than half the rate of the avg (D) in the 116th congress (and Rand Paul is the driving factor for it even being this high... he'd vote against saving his own child if they only way to save his kid was for the gov't to do it). You'd expect most of the GOP to be in the 3rd or 4th quartile in that congress. Indeed, only two democrats were lower than him. For the 117th congress romney is 4th of all senators in voting against his party. He's got a short history of votes and I'd contend that it's not the number of votes these people are talking about, but the type of votes.

    The connection these people are making, is that these senators aren't afraid to oppose their parties on big issues, while still giving them control of the chamber. You can ignore a lot of the votes that go against the party when they're on small issues: just look at cruz/rand/collins, especially when you know the motion will pass with bipartisan support (for real though, I'd guess 90% of Rand's votes against his party are just against any appropriations/budget bill whatsoever) . They all march in lock step on the big issues: confirming judges, impeachment, ACA.

    I really don't get the tar and feathering of manchin. The only reason he has a continued chance of getting re-elected is because he takes the political stands he does. WV won't elect a progressive democrat or even anything close to it. He's representing his constituents, while giving (D) control of the senate, and people are shitting on him for it. The only options for a senator from WV are a run-of-the-mill GOP senator with no senate control (I say run of the mill, but the other senator from WV voted against the GOP only 1.5% of the time, 6th least in the 116th), and a (D) like manchin with senate control. Maybe save the bile, vitriol, and effort on something that will actually advance your goals. Like getting more seats elsewhere in states with demographics that are actually changing, because nothing better is coming out of the back woods over in hill country. Those are your options you're likely to see from WV, a person who votes with the GOP 98.5% of the time, or someone who votes with the GOP 25.6% of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  7. #9127
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Blah blah blah both sides bullshit.

    One side is assaulting voting rights. One.
    Ignorance of history is not a defense. You're walking the well traveled road of accusing the system of being corrupt and that justifying extraordinary actions.

    Its about unfucking the system they fucked up. They created an atmosphere of corruption and we cannot just use happy thoughts to get rules back.
    It's them that are breaking the rules, I want to restore them. Small actions won't work.

    They are breaking the rules
    Restate, they did this first, which justifies my actions to correct

    Its already fully corrupt.
    The system is already corrupt, so no care needs to be taken to preserve anything in it.


    You're really blind to breaking norms in order to fix them, moaning how they broke them first. Your policy of ignoring history and ignoring the future for momentary relief is a perfect scheme to correct nothing and make it all worse.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  8. #9128
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Ignorance of history is not a defense. You're walking the well traveled road of accusing the system of being corrupt and that justifying extraordinary actions.


    It's them that are breaking the rules, I want to restore them. Small actions won't work.


    Restate, they did this first, which justifies my actions to correct


    The system is already corrupt, so no care needs to be taken to preserve anything in it.


    You're really blind to breaking norms in order to fix them, moaning how they broke them first. Your policy of ignoring history and ignoring the future for momentary relief is a perfect scheme to correct nothing and make it all worse.
    Oh fucking stop it.

    I am talking about right now. The republicans are assaulting voting rights across the country. That is a direct and literal attack on the democratic foundation of this country.

    I’m not falling your both sides bullshit, and neither is anyone else.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  9. #9129
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The thing that you quoted that you called a straw man wasn’t something I attributed to anyone else.

    That makes your straw man accusation…..a strawman.
    You don't have to attribute something you made up to someone in particular in order for it to be a strawman. You claiming the extreme position that "people" were "super excited about this nothing majority" when it's patently untrue is already the strawman.

    If you're referring to the second instance, then you're either mistakenly or deliberately forgetting the part you wrote leading up to Edge's quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    The repubs screwing with voter rights so they can increase their odds of winning future elections is proof that having a thin majority in the Senate even though cannot pass voter protections is awesome?
    Second strawman. Nobody said that nor suggested anything similar.

    You continue to forward the notion that people on these forums are enthusiastically happy about the slim Democrat majority in the Senate despite big legislation like HR1 being stalled due to Manchin and that's ridiculous. Nobody's happy about it (well, apart from the resident Trumpers who get themselves banned regularly when they can't help themselves any longer). The most people have said is that, if we can't get the big things through, then at least we can get some small-ticket items passed--and keep the GOP from passing further federal legislation that harms the nation or, as has been the case for the past several years, completely stonewalling anything the Democrats want brought to the floor. That's not nothing.

    None of us are saying things are great, and we're all aware that what the GOP are doing in certain states is awful (and probably something that's going to continue to draw lawsuits and an eventual SCOTUS ruling), but some of us are trying to salvage the small positives. The alternative is...what? Just ranting about how things aren't fair or things would have been different "if"? I asked before but you didn't reply: What do you propose should be done given that there's no real way of getting around Manchin? Threatening to primary him would backfire given that he's likely the only (D) you'll see elected Senator from West Virginia precisely because he's almost too conservative to call himself a Democrat. There aren't any GOP Senators who are likely to vote along with the Dems on these issues (though I'm sure Collins will remain very concerned). What, besides focusing on the 2022 Senate/House races the Dems have a better than average chance of flipping, should the Dems be doing right now that they aren't?

  10. #9130
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Oh fucking stop it.

    I am talking about right now. The republicans are assaulting voting rights across the country. That is a direct and literal attack on the democratic foundation of this country.

    I’m not falling your both sides bullshit, and neither is anyone else.
    Both sides bullshit is identical to declaring your well-intentioned fixes of the totally corrupt system has no chance to end like everybody else that had the same diagnosis and used it to justify their radical cure.

    I am talking about right now.
    Which is why I said you're ignoring history (people who talk only of right now tend to do this) and ignoring the future (people who talk of only right now and problems right now tend to ignore the future).

    So stop repeating every revolutionary's tired tripe like you're not the eleven billionth person to reject conventional means with the same exact "corrupt system" "my enemies must be stopped because it'll be too late if we do it the right way"
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  11. #9131
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    You don't have to attribute something you made up to someone in particular in order for it to be a strawman. You claiming the extreme position that "people" were "super excited about this nothing majority" when it's patently untrue is already the strawman.

    If you're referring to the second instance, then you're either mistakenly or deliberately forgetting the part you wrote leading up to Edge's quote:



    Second strawman. Nobody said that nor suggested anything similar.

    You continue to forward the notion that people on these forums are enthusiastically happy about the slim Democrat majority in the Senate despite big legislation like HR1 being stalled due to Manchin and that's ridiculous. Nobody's happy about it (well, apart from the resident Trumpers who get themselves banned regularly when they can't help themselves any longer). The most people have said is that, if we can't get the big things through, then at least we can get some small-ticket items passed--and keep the GOP from passing further federal legislation that harms the nation or, as has been the case for the past several years, completely stonewalling anything the Democrats want brought to the floor. That's not nothing.

    None of us are saying things are great, and we're all aware that what the GOP are doing in certain states is awful (and probably something that's going to continue to draw lawsuits and an eventual SCOTUS ruling), but some of us are trying to salvage the small positives. The alternative is...what? Just ranting about how things aren't fair or things would have been different "if"? I asked before but you didn't reply: What do you propose should be done given that there's no real way of getting around Manchin? Threatening to primary him would backfire given that he's likely the only (D) you'll see elected Senator from West Virginia precisely because he's almost too conservative to call himself a Democrat. There aren't any GOP Senators who are likely to vote along with the Dems on these issues (though I'm sure Collins will remain very concerned). What, besides focusing on the 2022 Senate/House races the Dems have a better than average chance of flipping, should the Dems be doing right now that they aren't?
    It’s not patently untrue. People have been super excited about the nothing majority. So fucking excited in fact, that you guys have been arguing with me for fucking days, because I wasn’t excited enough about it.

    Also, one more fucking time, you Bengaul, quoted a portion of my post to call that portion a straw man, and it wasn’t. Since you’ve been trying to pretend you didn’t make the specific fuck up, but you did. Admit it and move on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Ignorance of history is not a defense. You're walking the well traveled road of accusing the system of being corrupt and that justifying extraordinary actions.


    It's them that are breaking the rules, I want to restore them. Small actions won't work.


    Restate, they did this first, which justifies my actions to correct


    The system is already corrupt, so no care needs to be taken to preserve anything in it.


    You're really blind to breaking norms in order to fix them, moaning how they broke them first. Your policy of ignoring history and ignoring the future for momentary relief is a perfect scheme to correct nothing and make it all worse.
    1. I’m not ignoring nor am I ignorant of history. Historically, assaulting voting rights leads to facism.

    2. You are hung up on who did what first. You are doing that because you know your side is the side being evil right now and instead of having the intestinal fortitude to change sides, your trying baffle with bullshit.

    The only side that is trying to keep people from voting in democratic elections is the right. Until that is solved I don’t need you trying make yourself feel better about your shitty ideological choices.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  12. #9132
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    It’s not patently untrue. People have been super excited about the nothing majority. So fucking excited in fact, that you guys have been arguing with me for fucking days, because I wasn’t excited enough about it.

    Also, one more fucking time, you Bengaul, quoted a portion of my post to call that portion a straw man, and it wasn’t. Since you’ve been trying to pretend you didn’t make the specific fuck up, but you did. Admit it and move on.
    Wrong again on all counts (including the spelling of my handle--I mean, c'mon man, it's right there) as I pointed out in my previous post, but thanks for once again ignoring the question and proving you both 1) don't know what you're talking about and 2) aren't interested in discussing actual solutions anyway. Toodles, chuckles.

  13. #9133
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Wrong again on all counts (including the spelling of my handle--I mean, c'mon man, it's right there) as I pointed out in my previous post, but thanks for once again ignoring the question and proving you both 1) don't know what you're talking about and 2) aren't interested in discussing actual solutions anyway. Toodles, chuckles.
    Pathetic. Now you’re crying about me misspelling your screen name.

    I don’t have an answer but I also didn’t try propose one. All I said was that this majority is essentially meaningless and then you and a few others couldn’t handle that. So either you’re super fucking happy about the toothless majority or you decided bust my chops because you’re bored or an asshole or something.

    I’m not wrong about that, or about you not understanding what a strawman is.

    I did misspell your scree name so you can have that one.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2021-06-15 at 07:28 PM.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  14. #9134
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    All I said was that this majority is essentially meaningless and then you and a few others couldn’t handle that. So either you’re super fucking happy about the toothless majority or you decided bust my chops because you’re bored or an asshole or something.
    None of that is true. So, you're making up a statement to argue against. Therefore: Strawman.

    I was also joking about the handle, but I guess I shouldn't have assumed that was painfully obvious in this case.

  15. #9135
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    None of that is true. So, you're making up a statement to argue against. Therefore: Strawman.
    Quit lying. That is precisely why this argument fucking happened.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  16. #9136
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Quit lying. That is precisely why this argument fucking happened.
    What argument? You stated that people here were over the moon about the slim majority and that was obviously false given that practically everyone in here has been pretty much in "make the most of a bad situation" mode. You claimed that since people were over the moon then obviously it was okay that the GOP were screwing voting rights the nation over. That's a strawman. So then on top of the strawman you spent a great deal of time and effort complaining about...how everyone's not complaining about things as much as you? And you don't have any better ideas for how to go forward? There's no argument.

    But in the interest of not derailing the thread further and wasting my time (and for others who are having to scroll through this drek) I'll just shrug my shoulders, assume you had a bad day and are just lashing out at everything irrationally and end my part of the back and forth here.

  17. #9137
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    What argument? You stated that people here were over the moon about the slim majority and that was obviously false given that practically everyone in here has been pretty much in "make the most of a bad situation" mode. You claimed that since people were over the moon then obviously it was okay that the GOP were screwing voting rights the nation over. That's a strawman. So then on top of the strawman you spent a great deal of time and effort complaining about...how everyone's not complaining about things as much as you? And you don't have any better ideas for how to go forward? There's no argument.

    But in the interest of not derailing the thread further and wasting my time (and for others who are having to scroll through this drek) I'll just shrug my shoulders, assume you had a bad day and are just lashing out at everything irrationally and end my part of the back and forth here.
    Go back and read it. You jumped in on a part of it and then are telling that’s all that happened. That’s not my fault or my responsibility. Stop being a punk and liar and go back to the beginning.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  18. #9138
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    your average GOP voter hates the rich and corporations. They're willing to ignore that for a self-made man (not woman) but that's about it.
    I agree with the general idea you're going for, except this part.

    They're willing to ignore it for a Republican.

    Mitt Romney was rich. It was a campaign issue. Trump claimed to be rich. He was definitely not self-made, he just claimed he was. Pedophile Gaetz was caught trying to buy an escape boat.

    GOP voters like guns and hate abortions. They'll follow whoever promises to do the same, even if they stiff their employees and cheat on their wives with whores.

    I agree that a lot of GOP voters claim to hate elites. They are just willing to drop it in a heartbeat if the elite says "We need more God in schools"

  19. #9139
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I agree with the general idea you're going for, except this part.

    They're willing to ignore it for a Republican.

    Mitt Romney was rich. It was a campaign issue. Trump claimed to be rich. He was definitely not self-made, he just claimed he was. Pedophile Gaetz was caught trying to buy an escape boat.

    GOP voters like guns and hate abortions. They'll follow whoever promises to do the same, even if they stiff their employees and cheat on their wives with whores.

    I agree that a lot of GOP voters claim to hate elites. They are just willing to drop it in a heartbeat if the elite says "We need more God in schools"
    You’re not wrong but there’s an enthusiasm gap that can be noticeable. Trump branded himself a self made man. He’s a Man of the People. He made it through hard work. He works as hard as you do.

    Of course he’s a spoiled rich kid, a Hollywood pedophile, serial fraudster and never turned down a spoonful of Adderall.

    Compare him to Ted Cruz. Cruz at least worked for what he got and he managed to make an honest shot at the Presidency even though everyone hates him. Including his supporters. That’s the American Dream right there.

    Reagan and Bush2 also have the unearned Man of the People vibe.

    All Dems are by default the “Elite”. Only some GOP are the same.

  20. #9140
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Compare him to Ted Cruz.
    I see your point. It's just fun to point out how little that "I hate the elites" is worth when, say, closing polling places in African-American locations is at stake.

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