1. #9421
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    How is infrastructure discussion (argument in this case) off topic in a Biden/Harris thread while they're trying to pass a huge infrastructure bill?
    Probably because the argument hasn't been about the bill at all.

  2. #9422
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Probably because the argument hasn't been about the bill at all.
    It's about the politics of infrastructure--how is that off topic in this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  3. #9423
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Air travel was not cheap in the 1950s and early 1960s, but it was significantly faster. Time is money after all.
    "Fast" isn't relevant here.
    Your points are only a concern for the pitiful few.

  4. #9424
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    It's about the politics of infrastructure--how is that off topic in this thread?
    Because this is a Biden/Harris thread. Not "politics" in general. If y'all were discussing the Biden/Harris admin's approach to infrastructure that might be different, but it's just been a general bickering about car/flight versus train in the US that's been a pointless gainsaying for the past few pages.

  5. #9425
    It's a balancing act.
    Pelosi's insistence on "Reconciliation" on one hand, and infrastructure on the other.

    It's Pelosi that's the wild card...that really isn't. Because reconciliation is coming up first.

  6. #9426
    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Because this is a Biden/Harris thread. Not "politics" in general. If y'all were discussing the Biden/Harris admin's approach to infrastructure that might be different, but it's just been a general bickering about car/flight versus train in the US that's been a pointless gainsaying for the past few pages.
    I'll rephrase, but I'm guessing we'll just have to agree to disagree: It's a political discussion about infrastructure while an infrastructure bill is pending--a current topic highly relevant to the Biden/Harris administration--even if people aren't debating the minutiae of the bill itself but the broader considerations that inform political positions on infrastructure.

    But ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  7. #9427
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benggaul View Post
    Because this is a Biden/Harris thread. Not "politics" in general. If y'all were discussing the Biden/Harris admin's approach to infrastructure that might be different, but it's just been a general bickering about car/flight versus train in the US that's been a pointless gainsaying for the past few pages.
    Exactly this. If you can keep it relevant to the topic/bill, it's fine.
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  8. #9428
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's a balancing act.
    Pelosi's insistence on "Reconciliation" on one hand, and infrastructure on the other.

    It's Pelosi that's the wild card...that really isn't. Because reconciliation is coming up first.
    I don't see what McConnell's motivation would be to agree to an infrastructure bill that will help the economy and be good for Democrats generally, especially since he's butthurt that Dems out maneuvered them. Republicans would take credit for it after voting against it anyway, just like they did with the relief bill. Anybody have inside baseball on this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  9. #9429
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I'll rephrase, but I'm guessing we'll just have to agree to disagree: It's a political discussion about infrastructure while an infrastructure bill is pending--a current topic highly relevant to the Biden/Harris administration--even if people aren't debating the minutiae of the bill itself but the broader considerations that inform political positions on infrastructure.

    But ok.
    Except, again, it wasn't being debated with respect to the current administration but rather more along the lines of the history of infrastructure, which is a fine enough topic to talk about, but better suited to a separate thread.

    EDIT: Didn't see the mod posts. I'll end my part of the derailment here.

  10. #9430
    Herald of the Titans CostinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I am one of those guys who think we should fight wars of 2021 not 1800s, how useful was that F-35 against those Russian hackers that shot up the price of gas and shut down our aging totes fine according to you infrastructure? you keep masturbating at pretty planes when that's not where the war is being fought.
    They had planes in the 1800s now? I am sure a 21st century plane built to tackle the increasingly complex air defenses of countries like China and Russia, who poured billions ( or tens of billions in China's case ) in area denial capabilities while also designed to handle a complex digital battlefield and give battlefield awareness, long range strike capabilities and drone control is really about fighting Napoleon's armies in 1800.

    Like really, 2021 one called and it's asking you to wake the hell up. Cyberwarfare is a part of modern geopolitics but it is ONLY a part. China is building super carriers and mounting rail guns on their ships AND they are building stealth fighters and bombers. What the hell do you think they are doing that for?

    Thankfully Biden, his people and Congress are taking this more and more seriously...well the part of Congress that isn't living in Wonderland.
    Last edited by CostinR; 2021-06-27 at 04:12 PM.
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  11. #9431
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Lets see.... Yup, most of the railroads in Russia are in the western 1/4 of the country.
    You admit the railroad is the only way to get to many places in Siberia, which agrees with my statement of the dearth of flights.
    Oh look at that, most of Russia's population is in the west, just as I said.
    Forgot that on this forum it is all about being "technically correct", while ignoring context and ignoring all differences. Also forgot that if one of several examples can be argued to be not perfect, thread will be derailed by shitposters to argue 1 of 3 examples is not technically perfect, thus whole argument is wrong.

    Those places where railroad is missing are pretty much unpopulated, lots of it is covered with permafrost, there aren't even roads that lead there that are usable all year long. Places where people actually live are all connected via railroads. You keep ignoring that railroads span from west to east (predict a gotcha: the most eastern point doesn't have railroads!!!).

    Then you are forgetting that earth is not flat and actual distances aren't well scaled on flat map. Northern part is actually shorter than southern part.

    Let me use your "gotcha" logic here: you posted that only 1/4th of Russia has railroads, but map clearly shows that it is more than that. You claimed that it is mostly western parts, but actually it spans to east.

    Anyway, enough derailing. Back to my original point, which you seem to be derailing from based on small gotcha moment you got there: US railroad infrastructure is shit not because of issues you've listed, but because of lobbying by car industry. If you are still in denial, look at EU, Russia and China railroads to see how well they work.
    Last edited by MechanoDruid; 2021-06-27 at 07:23 PM.
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    I feel the above truly reflect what is happening in the US and its allies, or has been happening for some time.

  12. #9432
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I don't see what McConnell's motivation would be to agree to an infrastructure bill that will help the economy and be good for Democrats generally, especially since he's butthurt that Dems out maneuvered them. Republicans would take credit for it after voting against it anyway, just like they did with the relief bill. Anybody have inside baseball on this?
    My guess its like Charlie Brown with the football. He wants to show support that he's being Bipartisan but when the bill comes up for a vote they will say there is too much pork or something then block the vote decrying Democrats of being partisan while the Republicans were trying to get things moving.

    Right now Republicans think they can take the house in 2022 due to the unique census (that really should have an asterisk mark) so the Senate is stalling and setting up the message to take the house

  13. #9433
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    Quote Originally Posted by MechanoDruid View Post
    Forgot that on this forum it is all about being "technically correct", while ignoring context and ignoring all differences. Also forgot that if one of several examples can be argued to be not perfect, thread will be derailed by shitposters to argue 1 of 3 examples is not technically perfect, thus whole argument is wrong.

    Those places where railroad is missing are pretty much unpopulated, lots of it is covered with permafrost, there aren't even roads that lead there that are usable all year long. Places where people actually live are all connected via railroads. You keep ignoring that railroads span from west to east (predict a gotcha: the most eastern point doesn't have railroads!!!).

    Then you are forgetting that earth is not flat and actual distances aren't well scaled on flat map. Northern part is actually shorter than southern part.

    Let me use your "gotcha" logic here: you posted that only 1/4th of Russia has railroads, but map clearly shows that it is more than that. You claimed that it is mostly western parts, but actually it spans to east.

    Anyway, enough derailing. Back to my original point, which you seem to be derailing from based on small gotcha moment you got there: US railroad infrastructure is shit not because of issues you've listed, but because of lobbying by car industry. If you are still in denial, look at EU, Russia and China railroads to see how well they work.
    I was really trying to avoid going off topic, but i cant let this rest...

    I did NOT say only the western 1/4 of Russia has railroads, I said MOST of the railroads in Russia are in the western 1/4.

    US rail infrastructure is based on moving freight long distance, for which it works quite well, far better than in the EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Name a car that can pick you up and fly you over traffic, how useful is a car if you can't move. As I have said a car is only reduced below the usefulness of a helicopter once cars are worse than it.

    I am sorry but you are being ludicrous, you haven't answered the main question. Why are you against even analyzing and trying to make the system better? I am open to being wrong if the data shows but you are stuck in a time bubble.



    I am one of those guys who think we should fight wars of 2021 not 1800s, how useful was that F-35 against those Russian hackers that shot up the price of gas and shut down our aging totes fine according to you infrastructure? you keep masturbating at pretty planes when that's not where the war is being fought.
    Again, was trying to keep on track, so will only discuss F-35.

    Cyberwarfare is but a part of modern warfare. Hot war is still very much a reality in the 21st Century.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I don't see what McConnell's motivation would be to agree to an infrastructure bill that will help the economy and be good for Democrats generally, especially since he's butthurt that Dems out maneuvered them. Republicans would take credit for it after voting against it anyway, just like they did with the relief bill. Anybody have inside baseball on this?
    The purpose for him to go for it is to get a bill passed that is actually about infrastructure and not a bill about social programs disguised as an infrastructure plan.

  14. #9434
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    The purpose for him to go for it is to get a bill passed that is actually about infrastructure and not a bill about social programs disguised as an infrastructure plan.
    Lel. McConnell has a long and well established history of having absolutely no intention of legislating at all--that's what he packed the courts with conservative loons straight from the Federalist Society for, so THEY can enact broadly unpopular conservative shit and Republicans won't be on the hook for any uncomfortable votes. That's why when he's in charge stuff doesn't get voted on and above all no Democratic stuff because Democratic stuff IS broadly popular. Republicans melted the face off of their pretense of having policy positions, a la Indiana Jones; now it's just the naked skeleton of power grabs and a violent, anti-democratic movement fueled by ever more manufactured race hysteria that considers the white nationalist, authoritarian project the only "legitimate" rule, hence they break democracy in order to save it--"in order to save it" here means: make sure brown people and libcucks can't ever share in power, regardless of how people actually vote. McConnell doesn't give a ripe flying fuck if a bill is about infrastructure or not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by akris15 View Post
    My guess its like Charlie Brown with the football. He wants to show support that he's being Bipartisan but when the bill comes up for a vote they will say there is too much pork or something then block the vote decrying Democrats of being partisan while the Republicans were trying to get things moving.

    Right now Republicans think they can take the house in 2022 due to the unique census (that really should have an asterisk mark) so the Senate is stalling and setting up the message to take the house
    Yeah, I'm guessing we'll hear some variation of how they can't in good conscience (LOL) support the radical left agenda blah blah blah something about bait and switch, etc., ad nauseum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  15. #9435
    Quote Originally Posted by CostinR View Post
    They had planes in the 1800s now? I am sure a 21st century plane built to tackle the increasingly complex air defenses of countries like China and Russia, who poured billions ( or tens of billions in China's case ) in area denial capabilities while also designed to handle a complex digital battlefield and give battlefield awareness, long range strike capabilities and drone control is really about fighting Napoleon's armies in 1800.

    Like really, 2021 one called and it's asking you to wake the hell up. Cyberwarfare is a part of modern geopolitics but it is ONLY a part. China is building super carriers and mounting rail guns on their ships AND they are building stealth fighters and bombers. What the hell do you think they are doing that for?

    Thankfully Biden, his people and Congress are taking this more and more seriously...well the part of Congress that isn't living in Wonderland.
    The F-35 cost and administration came out during Biden's presidency, the entire project is an perfect example of political corruption and inefficiency. It only exist to prop up a private company's stock price, an update to our current hardware would be just fine. The United States spends more on conventional arms than the next 5 countries combined, we don't need more toys unlike China.

    Like really 2021 called, how many coventional wars has America lost even though we have superior fire power? we have been running with our tails between our legs in all these conflicts because we solely rely on pretty planes that cost a fortune but are really worthless. It's beyond mad that democrats under Biden are doubling down and increasing defense spending on these bloat projects.

    Meanwhile we remain underfunded in cyberwarfare, infrastructure to protect against attacks and education to train brilliant hackers but look at the pretty billion dollar paper weight.
    Last edited by Draco-Onis; 2021-06-27 at 11:08 PM.

  16. #9436
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The F-35 cost and administration came out during Biden's presidency, the entire project is an perfect example of political corruption and inefficiency.
    What it is, is a perfect example of the sunk cost fallacy.

  17. #9437
    Merely a Setback JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/phildstewart/sta...84121982115848

    Glad to see foreign policy has at least not changed under Biden.
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  18. #9438
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Cyberwarfare is but a part of modern warfare. Hot war is still very much a reality in the 21st Century.
    You mean all the hot wars we've been losing even though we outgun our enemies by leaps and bounds. If conventional weapons won us wars the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Qeda would be gone, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan would be democratic utopias.

    We are stuck in this never ending loop democrat republican doesn't matter they are just like you and want to fight the last war we won. Biden is of the same school of thought spending money on pork projects.
    Last edited by Draco-Onis; 2021-06-28 at 12:44 AM.

  19. #9439
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The F-35 cost and administration came out during Biden's presidency, the entire project is an perfect example of political corruption and inefficiency. It only exist to prop up a private company's stock price, an update to our current hardware would be just fine. The United States spends more on conventional arms than the next 5 countries combined, we don't need more toys unlike China.

    Like really 2021 called, how many coventional wars has America lost even though we have superior fire power? we have been running with our tails between our legs in all these conflicts because we solely rely on pretty planes that cost a fortune but are really worthless. It's beyond mad that democrats under Biden are doubling down and increasing defense spending on these bloat projects.

    Meanwhile we remain underfunded in cyberwarfare, infrastructure to protect against attacks and education to train brilliant hackers but look at the pretty billion dollar paper weight.
    Sure, its easy to rest on your laurels, but a lot harder and more expensive to catch up once you figure out the competition has not been. The idea is to be superior to your foe, not equal. China under reports their spending and does not have to be concerned with power projection in two oceans.

    That depends on your definition of a conventional war. If you are talking state actor on state actor action, then maybe 1973 in Vietnam, but that was really a conventional war victory and a insurgency defeat. So perhaps 1920 backing the White Russians? Really, in state actor on state actor wars, the US has done very well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    You mean all the hot wars we've been losing even though we outgun our enemies by leaps and bounds. If conventional weapons won us wars the Taliban, ISIS, Al-Qeda would be gone, Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan would be democratic utopias.

    We are stuck in this never ending loop democrat republican doesn't matter they are just like you and want to fight the last war we won. Biden is of the same school of thought spending money on pork projects.
    The F-35 is intended for near-peer conflict, not for performing land occupation or COIN. The US military is not designed to be an occupational force, nor is the US generally willing to expend the money needed to win a insurgency.

  20. #9440
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    l

    The F-35 is intended for near-peer conflict, not for performing land occupation or COIN. The US military is not designed to be an occupational force, nor is the US generally willing to expend the money needed to win a insurgency.
    Someone should tell that to the politicians. Or we're going to be forever fighting forever wars.

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