1. #9581
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Done properly and immediately, it would not have cost trillions.

    I have no stake in either.
    ROFLMAO, I think we are done here it's clear you are delusional thinking we can rebuild an entire country under a decade and it would not cost trillions. I also don't believe that you don't have a stake in this either there aren't many people that would look at all our wars and wish we spent more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://www.businessinsider.com/us-m...ase-2021-7?amp

    The withdrawal from Afghanistan doesn't seem to be going great. Apparently one of the bases was partially abandoned, they took most of the stuff, destroyed some stuff, but left a LOT behind. Not just like, Monster and guitars, but also armored vehicles and some light weaponry/ammunition. Some was intentionally left behind to be transferred, but it seems like we left a lot more behind for folks to just stroll up and take.

    We need to get the hell out, but I'd hope it'd be more orderly than this, even if it takes a bit more time.
    I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

    The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.

  2. #9582
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

    The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.
    I personally think at this point that anyone who wishes to leave with the withdrawal should be given asylum and let all the women and children get out of that hellhole before they come back.

    Then after we have left and all those who wish to have also left, the Taliban can enjoy the sausage fest that is left behind.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  3. #9583
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    ROFLMAO, I think we are done here it's clear you are delusional thinking we can rebuild an entire country under a decade and it would not cost trillions. I also don't believe that you don't have a stake in this either there aren't many people that would look at all our wars and wish we spent more.

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    I think it's pretty clear to Biden and everyone else that Afghanistan is going to fall back into the hands of the Taliban. They have made great strides already and the soldiers we've "trained" are deserting to their side. One of our biggest mistake is the current Afghan government they have not been governing so people don't have a reason to fight.

    The fate of the translators and their families is what is most concerning, the Taliban doesn't have a forgiveness program.
    Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.

  4. #9584
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.
    "Nation building" is and has always been a failed concept. Afghanistan is not Germany, Japan, Korea or even Iraq.

    US political planners drew the wrong conclusions from the experiences in Germany, Japan and Korea. Those countries never needed the US to teach them "Functional Nation State 101" any US assistance given was there mostly just to accelerate the process of national reconstruction and to ensure an outcome that would be strategically favorable to the US.

    Afghanistan is wildly different than those countries and the lessons learned from them are not applicable to it. It would have taken generations to just even create a basic sense of national unity and some level of cultural and even linguistic coherence to build a country on.

    Hell, even Iraq is mostly just held together by chicken wire, good luck and Iranian goodwill, influence and military interventions.

    Seriously your ideas on US military interventions, especially regarding Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are so asinine that not even the most gungho military brass don't share it.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-07-07 at 06:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  5. #9585
    arguing that Afghanistan could have turned out well if only it had been done right sounds like, "But real communism has never been tried" kinda comments

  6. #9586
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    "Nation building" is and has always been a failed concept. Afghanistan is not Germany, Japan, Korea or even Iraq.

    US political planners drew the wrong conclusions from the experiences in Germany, Japan and Korea. Those countries never needed the US to teach them "Functional Nation State 101" any US assistance given was there mostly just to accelerate the process of national reconstruction and to ensure an outcome that would be strategically favorable to the US.

    Afghanistan is wildly different than those countries and the lessons learned from them are not applicable to it. It would have taken generations to just even create a basic sense of national unity and some level of cultural and even linguistic coherence to build a country on.

    Hell, even Iraq is mostly just held together by chicken wire, good luck and Iranian goodwill, influence and military interventions.

    Seriously your ideas on US military interventions, especially regarding Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are so asinine that not even the most gungho military brass don't share it.
    "Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge. It is unique for every country.

    Political failure is not the same as military failure.

    It needed rebuilt to pre-1978 status quo.

    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.

  7. #9587
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.
    Defeating the "state actors" in those three countries is hardly something remotely worth bragging about. That's akin to some professional martial artist bragging that he beat the judo team at the local YMCA.

    And as painfully evidenced by all three, that's not the important part. It's easy as piss and gives us, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" nonsense. Weird that locals aren't always super receptive to the US bringing peace, stability, and Democracy, and that the result is usually that they just hate us more.

  8. #9588
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post

    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.
    That is rhetorical nonsense akin to saying "We didn't lose the war, we just failed to win" .

    In political and strategic terms we lost and the conflicts were never winnable in the first place as the objectives were by default impossible to achieve.

    Furthermore...

    "Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge
    Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.

    The inability to comprehend that the locals might not want "The American Way" no matter how many guns you point at them and how much money you're willing to burn is very Bush Era politics, a delusion that Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc and the past 20 years as a whole should have cured by now.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-07-07 at 10:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    It doesnt destroy the land to bury styrofoam 25 feet below the ground
    Today Obama once again kneeled at the altar of environmental naziism and hurt this once great country. He has now banned all drilling in the Atlantic Ocean

  9. #9589
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.
    I feel like that biker show meme with the dude and his dad is relevant here.

    "WHY WON'T YOU LEAVE!?"
    "I'M NATION BUILDING!"
    "YOU DESTROYED OUR INFRASTRUCTURE TO BEGIN WITH!"
    "I'M BRINGING FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY TO YOUR BACKWARDS ASS NATION!"
    "WE NEVER EVEN FUCKING ASKED YOU INVADE IN THE FIRST PLACE!"

  10. #9590
    Herald of the Titans bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.
    Speak for yourself, even my loony ass libertarian veteran friends don't share your delusional ideas, least of all myself.

  11. #9591
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    "Nation building" as it relates to stabilizing a country post war is simple establishing a level of existence equal or better than what existed for the majority people sufficient to remove support for insurrection and remove the desire of the defeated to seek revenge. It is unique for every country.

    Political failure is not the same as military failure.

    It needed rebuilt to pre-1978 status quo.

    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military. We clearly defeated the state actors in all three conflicts, we failed to pacify the insurrection.
    As someone who had to write extensively about the failures of containment warfare, you don’t have the foggiest.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  12. #9592
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Anyone ever dealt with a kid or a very stupid adult who you warned to not do something because they were incapable of dealing with the consequences. They do it anyway cause a mess, and then aren't equipped to deal with the mess. That's Afghanistan.

    The US tried to make cookies without even a bowl to mix them in. Now there's sticky cookie dough all over the counter and an new ant infestation.

    I mean, China, is pretty happy we are gone. They will create another serf out of Afghanistan that we've prepared for them.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  13. #9593
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Never said it had to be rebuilt to First World status.
    This is a very depressing comment. Your goal is to rebuild America up to the point that we are equal to any other Second World Country.

    As it turns out, you are correct in that this is a very ambitious goal for the US at this time.

  14. #9594
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Defeating the "state actors" in those three countries is hardly something remotely worth bragging about. That's akin to some professional martial artist bragging that he beat the judo team at the local YMCA.

    And as painfully evidenced by all three, that's not the important part. It's easy as piss and gives us, "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" nonsense. Weird that locals aren't always super receptive to the US bringing peace, stability, and Democracy, and that the result is usually that they just hate us more.
    It is what the US military was designed to do. It performed that job excellently. The military worked, the politicians fell flat on their face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    That is rhetorical nonsense akin to saying "We didn't lose the war, we just failed to win" .

    In political and strategic terms we lost and the conflicts were never winnable in the first place as the objectives were by default impossible to achieve.

    Furthermore...



    Is not an achievable objective if the local criteria for a state of existence equal or better for the majority of the population includes you not being there.

    The inability to comprehend that the locals might not want "The American Way" no matter how many guns you point at them and how much money you're willing to burn is very Bush Era politics, a delusion that Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya etc and the past 20 years as a whole should have cured by now.
    It is incorrect to say they were not winnable, we just didn't have the commitment to do what was need.

    I never claimed they needed "The American Way".

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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeXcrasher View Post
    Speak for yourself, even my loony ass libertarian veteran friends don't share your delusional ideas, least of all myself.
    Which delusional ideas? That we defeated the state actors or that we failed to pacify the insurrections?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    As someone who had to write extensively about the failures of containment warfare, you don’t have the foggiest.
    I studied international conflict resolution actually.

    Of course containment warfare failed, we never addressed the reasons the conflicts we got involved with wouldn't die, and usually just added gas to the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Anyone ever dealt with a kid or a very stupid adult who you warned to not do something because they were incapable of dealing with the consequences. They do it anyway cause a mess, and then aren't equipped to deal with the mess. That's Afghanistan.

    The US tried to make cookies without even a bowl to mix them in. Now there's sticky cookie dough all over the counter and an new ant infestation.

    I mean, China, is pretty happy we are gone. They will create another serf out of Afghanistan that we've prepared for them.
    Afghanistan would consume China as it has all the other empires that have come and gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega10 View Post
    This is a very depressing comment. Your goal is to rebuild America up to the point that we are equal to any other Second World Country.

    As it turns out, you are correct in that this is a very ambitious goal for the US at this time.
    It is actually impossible for the US to be anything but a First World country by traditional definition.

  15. #9595
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    Afghanistan would consume China as it has all the other empires that have come and gone.
    Will it? Because China is not going to get involved while trying to spread its ideology, not for a while at least. China does not care what they do. China is looking for someone they can in debt, someone who then owes them a favor when China dumps its power and influence. Same thing China has been doing in various ignored/impoverished/"too hot to work with" countries
    China's approach is different because they don't care goes on within a countries borders as long as they are getting whatever they want out of the deal. So they arent going in with tanks and guns, they are going in with tractors and paychecks.

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  16. #9596
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    My ideas are the same as shared by most people in the military.
    Yes, and this explains quite keenly why the US military keeps having to make up conflicts out of whole cloth to keep justifying the bloat required to sustain it ever since it became impossible for Russia to keep parity. Rofl.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  17. #9597
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Will it? Because China is not going to get involved while trying to spread its ideology, not for a while at least. China does not care what they do. China is looking for someone they can in debt, someone who then owes them a favor when China dumps its power and influence. Same thing China has been doing in various ignored/impoverished/"too hot to work with" countries
    China's approach is different because they don't care goes on within a countries borders as long as they are getting whatever they want out of the deal. So they arent going in with tanks and guns, they are going in with tractors and paychecks.
    Doesn't work so well there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, and this explains quite keenly why the US military keeps having to make up conflicts out of whole cloth to keep justifying the bloat required to sustain it ever since it became impossible for Russia to keep parity. Rofl.
    If anything, the US military is underfunded for the jobs the politicians keep giving it.

  18. #9598
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    If anything, the US military is underfunded for the jobs the politicians keep giving it.
    Which is entirely a result of the military, and their friends in the corporations that supply them or otherwise benefit from America maintaining its imperial interests, pushing said politicians to increase the scope of the military's operations as part of a scam to perpetually plead poverty and justify appropriating huge amounts of public resources on incredibly wasteful enterprises.

    It's almost as if it's some sort of complex between the military and industrial sectors, and trying to fob the blame on politicians is wankery that ignores the politicians themselves are just tools of the industrial sector in our crony capitalist system. /yawn
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-07-08 at 08:31 AM.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  19. #9599
    https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...9f11f095a95366

    The withdrawal is a mess, but the War in Afghanistan, which has been ongoing for most of my life, will end on August 31. We need to leave, we can no longer do any good over there, if we did much good to begin with.

  20. #9600
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...9f11f095a95366

    The withdrawal is a mess, but the War in Afghanistan, which has been ongoing for most of my life, will end on August 31. We need to leave, we can no longer do any good over there, if we did much good to begin with.
    Don't worry according to conservatives they say the Chinese will jump right in for the magical 3 trillion in minerals that no ones been able to prove are there or cost effective to get at.....and somehow they will be able to be successful.

    The odd part is the majority of them claim its because the Chinese are brutal. umm...but the old Russian's were cuddle bears?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

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