Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[szechuan]

This isn't surprising. Biden has done nothing but lie, downplay and blame others for his failure in the Afghanistan withdrawal.

I wonder what Biden will say today now that the us embassy in Afghanistan said to not come to the airport due to security risks

@TexasRules You don't care about Refugees.


Yet you're ignoring Stephen Miller sabotaging the refugee process, and Trump did not give the Biden Administration a smooth transition.

[uuuhname]

@TexasRules You don't care about Refugees.


Yet you're ignoring Stephen Miller sabotaged the refugee process, and Trump refused to give intelligence to Biden Administration.

like this is such a tired attempt at trying to dunk on the opposing party. yeah, not a single one of you conservatives want Afghani refugees here. not unlike woman athletes, not unlike unborn children, they are nothing but a prop, a cudgel to bash the other party with and then toss aside the moment you're done using them. it's so painfully obvious as if we haven't witnessed this exact same behavior for 20+ years...

[masterhorus8]

@TexasRules



Yup, Biden's fault.

[Blur4stuff]

It's entirely appropriate to criticize Biden for not making the exit smoother. You lose credibility, though, if you pretend Trump did a good job concerning this issue. He had years to do a great job, but didn't. Why? Because he isn't capable of doing anything well. His entire adult life is proof of that. Actually, I take that back. He's great at conning people out of their money and is still doing it to his base.

Republicans aren't going to gain much ground on this issue because the majority of Americans don't want to be in Afghanistan. They are all too ready to forget about it. As we all know, they've already been doing a pretty good job of ignoring it for the past several years.

Afghanistan is going to be a great example of how American political goldfish memory works.

[Kaleredar]

It's entirely appropriate to criticize Biden for not making the exit smoother. You lose credibility, though, if you pretend Trump did a good job concerning this issue. He had years to do a great job, but didn't. Why? Because he isn't capable of doing anything well. His entire adult life is proof of that. Actually, I take that back. He's great at conning people out of their money and is still doing it to his base.

Republicans aren't going to gain much ground on this issue because the majority of Americans don't want to be in Afghanistan. They are all too ready to forget about it. As we all know, they've already been doing a pretty good job of ignoring it for the past several years.

Afghanistan is going to be a great example of how American political goldfish memory works.

Indeed. Not to be overly cynical, but once the dust settles on this I doubt it'll get much political ploy.

Not to mention that GOP approval of Trump's withdrawal plan was pretty high, so it'd be hard for GOP members running in 2022 or 2024 to try and get people to recall back to mid-year 2021 to demonize democrats over it but then not recall any further back to when the GOP had supported it.

[Benggaul]

it'd be hard for GOP members running in 2022 or 2024 to try and get people to recall back to mid-year 2021 to demonize democrats over it but then not recall any further back to when the GOP had supported it.

I don't think that would be particularly difficult at all considering there's already one troll in this thread doing exactly that. You're giving people more credit than they deserve.

[Fugus]

Indeed. Not to be overly cynical, but once the dust settles on this I doubt it'll get much political ploy.

Not to mention that GOP approval of Trump's withdrawal plan was pretty high, so it'd be hard for GOP members running in 2022 or 2024 to try and get people to recall back to mid-year 2021 to demonize democrats over it but then not recall any further back to when the GOP had supported it.

I hate to say it, but the double speak and double standards coming out of Republicans nowadays, I can very much see them doing that. They will claim how Trump negotiated this perfect withdraw that they supported only for Biden to come in and screw it up. Or will claim that Trump never came up with the withdraw and the stories of it are fake news.

But make no mistakes, they have no issues with the double standards. I have literally had someone tell me the Democrats doing something was evil while the Republicans doing the exact same things was good because "The Democrats Are Evil" and that was the beginning and end of their logic and justification.

[Kaleredar]

I don't think that would be particularly difficult at all considering there's already one troll in this thread doing exactly that. You're giving people more credit than they deserve.

I hate to say it, but the double speak and double standards coming out of Republicans nowadays, I can very much see them doing that. They will claim how Trump negotiated this perfect withdraw that they supported only for Biden to come in and screw it up. Or will claim that Trump never came up with the withdraw and the stories of it are fake news.

But make no mistakes, they have no issues with the double standards. I have literally had someone tell me the Democrats doing something was evil while the Republicans doing the exact same things was good because "The Democrats Are Evil" and that was the beginning and end of their logic and justification.

Ah but see, the Afghanistan withdrawal is happening now, versus happening in "the past," like the GOP supporting it did. So it's easy for them to say "Look! Pay attention to the here and now!" In 2022, much less 2024, this, and the GOP supporting it, will have both happened in "the past."

Imagine the GOP as... setting their audience in simple brain states to receive information. Usually, it's the simple brain state of "be outraged at whatever the democrats are doing right now," which they've had a very hard time of doing in regards to Biden. Do you remember the "lumber shortage" or "hambruger shortage?" I don't.

But when they try and set their audience in the brain state of "now remember back..." it might start them asking too many questions, or remembering things they don't want them to. Like the GOP having supported the thing the whole way.

I don't doubt it'll be mentioned or kicked around come election time. But I also doubt they'll really go into specifics about it and I don't think it'll net them much at that time, especially if this whole thing sort of dies down and slips out of public conscious.

[Benggaul]

Ah but see, the Afghanistan withdrawal is happening now, versus happening in "the past," like the GOP supporting it did. So it's easy for them to say "Look! Pay attention to the here and now!" In 2022, much less 2024, this, and the GOP supporting it, will have both happened in "the past."

I realize that, but I think you're ignoring the part where they don't care. The people who vote GOP these days are, by and large, people who ignore the fact that they're essentially the Party of Projection, not caring in the slightest what the GOP does, but coming down heavily on the Dems who would do the same thing. We see it time and again. They will not hold their own responsible.

[Kaleredar]

I realize that, but I think you're ignoring the part where they don't care. The people who vote GOP these days are, by and large, people who ignore the fact that they're essentially the Party of Projection, not caring in the slightest what the GOP does, but coming down heavily on the Dems who would do the same thing. We see it time and again. They will not hold their own responsible.

Sure, but we're not talking about republican voters, they were just going to vote for whomever their party puts forth in 2022 or 2024 regardless of how Biden handled the situation in Afghanistan.

[Benggaul]

Sure, but we're not talking about republican voters, they were just going to vote for whomever their party puts forth in 2022 or 2024 regardless of how Biden handled the situation in Afghanistan.

Well, you said "people" and didn't specify, but I think Republican voters are the only ones who will give enough of a fuck about it in 2022 and beyond to bring it up. Trump and Biden both fucked up the execution, but getting out of Afghanistan in some form has overall been a popular goal. And you framed it as the GOP setting their audience up to receive it as Biden's fault...but their audience is pretty much just Republican voters who, as you say, will just vote for whomever their party puts forth. So, yeah, I absolutely believe the GOP will try to run with it and I believe their voters will eat it up as per usual. The rest of the people probably won't bother paying attention to it.

[Kaleredar]

Well, you said "people" and didn't specify, but I think Republican voters are the only ones who will give enough of a fuck about it in 2022 and beyond to bring it up. Trump and Biden both fucked up the execution, but getting out of Afghanistan in some form has overall been a popular goal. And you framed it as the GOP setting their audience up to receive it as Biden's fault...but their audience is pretty much just Republican voters who, as you say, will just vote for whomever their party puts forth. So, yeah, I absolutely believe the GOP will try to run with it and I believe their voters will eat it up as per usual. The rest of the people probably won't bother paying attention to it.

I think it's the kind of thing that could sway the opinions of "undecideds" or voters thinking of sitting things out in a potentially meaningful way if it was something happening closer to an election.

Which is my point; that kind of "think back, but not too far back..." noise would be a hard sell come a year or three years from now.

[Benggaul]

I think it's the kind of thing that could sway the opinions of "undecideds" or voters thinking of sitting things out in a potentially meaningful way if it was something happening closer to an election.

Which is my point; that kind of "think back, but not too far back..." noise would be a hard sell come a year or three years from now.

Well, I also think there aren't very many "undecideds" anymore. There are a lot of people who claim they are, probably to avoid some harassment, but after the past 5 years or so it's been made more clear than ever what you're voting for if you vote for the GOP. People who look at what the GOP doing and claim they're "undecided" aren't fooling anyone.

[TexasRules]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...?sref=MTy2GeXk

President Joe Biden told key allies in June that he would maintain enough of a security presence in Afghanistan to ensure they could continue to operate in the capital following the main U.S. withdrawal, a vow made before the Taliban’s rapid final push across the country, according to a British diplomatic memo seen by Bloomberg.

Biden promised U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and other leaders at the Group of Seven summit in Cornwall, England, that “critical U.S. enablers” would remain in place to keep Kabul safe following the drawdown of NATO forces, the note said. British officials determined the U.S. would provide enough personnel to ensure that the U.K. embassy in Kabul could continue operating.

The British seemed to be caught off guard and addressed this disastrous stance by the United States in Parliament:

Lord McColl of Dulwich

“Although President Biden has tried to shift the blame on to President Trump, that simply does not work. President Biden had the power to stop the withdrawal of the troops but failed to do so. To be fair, this situation may not be easy for President Biden to deal with because he does not seem to me to be in good health. There are many examples of the disease of a national leader having a disastrous effect on a country, a continent or even the world.”

Lord Howard of Lympne:

“The responsibility for the decision to withdraw rests with President Biden. Up to now, many of us have been rather impressed with the president’s performance in his first few months in office, although that may in large part be due to the relief at the absence of his unlamented predecessor. But I am afraid that President Biden’s decision to withdraw from Afghanistan is, and will be seen by history as, a catastrophic mistake which may well prove to be the defining legacy of his presidency.”

[bladeXcrasher]

Little behind Trump's May 1st withdrawal date, but at least he got it done.

If the British want to continue in Afghanistan, let them go ahead and fuck around there.

[Gaidax]

Little behind Trump's May 1st withdrawal date, but at least he got it done.

If the British want to continue in Afghanistan, let them go ahead and fuck around there.

But I thought "America is back" and we're not "America first" anymore?

It's not really the message you'd want to project to your allies and catching brits and others with their pants down flailing trying to fetch their citizens and collaborators surely won't reflect kindly on Biden in EU/UK/etc.

Like at least with Trump they knew what to expect (as in screw you all), but with Biden this was a pretty big backstab there.

Now to be fair - their fault, but the thing does not look terribly good for US relations with said allies either going down the road.

[bladeXcrasher]

But I thought "America is back" and we're not "America first" anymore?

It's not really the message you'd want to project to your allies and catching brits and others with their pants down flailing trying to fetch their citizens and collaborators surely won't reflect kindly on Biden in EU/UK/etc.

Like at least with Trump they knew what to expect (as in screw you all), but with Biden this was a pretty big backstab there.

Now to be fair - their fault, but the thing does not look terribly good for US relations with said allies either going down the road.

Getting out of Afghanistan is hardly an "America first" issue. Let's not forget Trump's initial may 1st 2021 was 2 years ago. If anything, the warhawks around the world expected the US to just keep trudging along instead of making their own preparations to extract relevant personal, whether citizens or Afghan allies. I include the US in that statement even if we specifically had Steven Miller ratfucking the visa process.

[Elenos]

Getting out of Afghanistan is hardly an "America first" issue. Let's not forget Trump's initial may 1st 2021 was 2 years ago. If anything, the warhawks around the world expected the US to just keep trudging along instead of making their own preparations to extract relevant personal, whether citizens or Afghan allies. I include the US in that statement even if we specifically had Steven Miller ratfucking the visa process.

Biden was correct in withdrawing US troops.

Biden also fucked HOW they were withdrawn in a major way.

[davesurfer]

so it'd be hard for GOP members running in 2022 or 2024 to try and get people to recall back to mid-year 2021 to demonize democrats over it but then not recall any further back to when the GOP had supported it.

I think you are conflating the issues, much like Pres Biden is. The debate isn't about SHOULD we get out, but HOW we did it. Getting out has bi-partisan support. But blaming Trump is silly, as Biden has over ridden every other policy, so if Biden didn't want to get out he didn't have to. He wanted to, like most Dems, Inds, and Repubs. 75% of Americans wanted out.

As for the election, it will be a simple question: "Can we name one thing that is better today, than Jan 20th (besides mean tweets)?" That is the question people will have to ask themselves and answer

Major issues Americans are worried about (per surveys)
Crime
Immigration
COVID
Energy Prices
Economy/Inflation

If you feel most of these are better today, then you vote status quo if you feel most are worse, you vote for the other party. This crisis is just a way to gauge if you think the person in power is competent.

[Fugus]

Overall, the main differences I see between what Trump agreed to and what Biden did.

1) Biden has us out by September 11th while Trump had us out by May 1st.

2) Biden is scrambling to get people out at the last minute while Trump seemingly was planning on abandoning them to die as shown by #1's more rushed timeline combine with how he was allowing Steven Miller and his people to try and deny our allies there entry which is par the course with how he also abandoned the Kurds to Turkey and with how he literally deported active duty soldiers and their families.

So while Biden was still massively superior to what Trump had originally done, that is still a really low bar and he should have done better, even taking into account his cabinet took time to appoint and Trump made sure he didn't get intel till the latest possible moment.

Anything I miss on this analysis or any facts I missed?