Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Benggaul]

It's all about optics say what you want about Trump but at least he understood public relations, the public perception is that Biden is being taken to the cleaners by Manchin. You simply have to look at today Joe Manchin just completely humiliated the president on the world's stage and for that there will barely be a wimper barely a bark. So yes Biden should have been an asshole about it even if he was a cuddle bunny behind the scenes because he is feeding into an pre-existing image and cliche about democratic president that they are spineless and incompetent.

So no good ideas then? Just hyperbole? I thought as much.

[Edge-]

Didn't you just hear what Manchin has now said publicly? he just publicly spanked Biden and reports have said behind the scenes he is fine with doing nothing. This entire agenda still has a high chance of going down in flames.

What, the "what about my grandkids and the debt" bullshit? Or something else? I don't much care about the rhetoric around it, I care about the actual content of the bill being negotiated and how folks finally vote on it. Rhetoric is more for their constituency more than anything else.

What's the solution here beyond complaining that Democrats have to deal with the likes of Manchin and Sinema, which accomplishes nothing?

[Draco-Onis]

So no good ideas then? Just hyperbole? I thought as much.

You don't think he should publicly rebuke Manchin and Sinema instead of letting them have free reign of the narrative? Biden doesn't look like he is fighting that's my point.

[Edge-]

You don't think he should publicly rebuke Manchin and Sinema instead of letting them have free reign of the narrative? Biden doesn't look like he is fighting that's my point.

And publicly rebuking (which he's done in the past) accomplishes...what exactly? Is it gonna make them more likely to vote on the bill? To agree to more spending?

I don't care about the performative bullshit. More gets done behind the scenes that we never see than is done on the stage for an audience.

[Draco-Onis]

What, the "what about my grandkids and the debt" bullshit? Or something else? I don't much care about the rhetoric around it, I care about the actual content of the bill being negotiated and how folks finally vote on it. Rhetoric is more for their constituency more than anything else.

What's the solution here beyond complaining that Democrats have to deal with the likes of Manchin and Sinema, which accomplishes nothing?

It's simple use your PR to push back against them publicly the worse thing Biden did was be the positive we'll get it done guy, he failed to look like he is in charge. You can say whatever you want about Trump's angry tweets but it made the base feel like he was fighting back. American politics is all about feels and he has handled the public perception of this negotiations with Sinema and Manchin badly.

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And publicly rebuking (which he's done in the past) accomplishes...what exactly? Is it gonna make them more likely to vote on the bill? To agree to more spending?

I don't care about the performative bullshit. More gets done behind the scenes that we never see than is done on the stage for an audience.

That makes one of you because that's the whole ball game in American politics.

[Benggaul]

You don't think he should publicly rebuke Manchin and Sinema instead of letting them have free reign of the narrative? Biden doesn't look like he is fighting that's my point.

Except, again, he has publicly rebuked them in the past, stating that they vote more like Republicans than Democrats and that's not what they were elected for. He's not "letting them have free reign". That's just the press, as usual. He's repeatedly stated publicly that this legislation is important (and popular) and needs to be passed and that's really all he can do about it as President. Sorry if it's not spectacular enough for you, but if you want unhinged ranting and raving over policy then you have the wrong party.

[Draco-Onis]

Except, again, he has publicly rebuked them in the past, stating that they vote more like Republicans than Democrats and that's not what they were elected for. He's not "letting them have free reign". That's just the press, as usual. He's repeatedly stated publicly that this legislation is important (and popular) and needs to be passed and that's really all he can do about it as President. Sorry if it's not spectacular enough for you, but if you want unhinged ranting and raving over policy then you have the wrong party.

In most of his rebukes he dares not say their names or even attack them directly it's mild jabs at best again optics.

[Benggaul]

It's simple use your PR to push back against them publicly the worse thing Biden did was be the positive we'll get it done guy, he failed to look like he is in charge. You can say whatever you want about Trump's angry tweets but it made the base feel like he was fighting back.

Cool. I'm fine with us not dumbing things down for the lowest common denominator. *shrug*

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In most of his rebukes he dares not say their names or even attack them directly it's mild jabs at best again optics.

Anyone who doesn't know the people he's specifically referring to are fucking morons--and most of those voted for the other guy anyway.

EDIT: Also, if he DID start frothing at the mouth like Trump then the GOP would just point at that as the negative and the "narrative" would be in their favor again anyway. People swayed by that shit are pretty much already completely on-board with the GOP/Trump.

[Draco-Onis]

Cool. I'm fine with us not dumbing things down for the lowest common denominator. *shrug*

Have you met the average American?

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Anyone who doesn't know the people he's specifically referring to are fucking morons--and most of those voted for the other guy anyway.

I think you think too highly of the average democrat.

[Edge-]

It's simple use your PR to push back against them publicly

To accomplish...what, exactly?

he failed to look like he is in charge.

What does he need to do to "be in charge"? Host more cabinet meetings in front of cameras to show he's in charge and doing things? Having more meetings to negotiate bills in front of cameras to show he's doing things?

Again, perception might matter in terms of public sentiment, but folks care more about the sausage at the end of the day, not the process that goes into making it.

You can say whatever you want about Trump's angry tweets but it made the base feel like he was fighting back.

Ok, I'd rather not replicate Trump's Broadway show of being POTUS. It may work with his base, but it's not gonna work with Democrats.

American politics is all about feels and he has handled the public perception of this negotiations with Sinema and Manchin badly.

Again, short of a smear campaign as you appear to want which will accomplish I don't know because you haven't said...what's the play here? This is the reality that Democrats have to work with. It's not ideal and none of us are happy about it. But there's not much to really do about it.

[Draco-Onis]

Ok, I'd rather not replicate Trump's Broadway show of being POTUS. It may work with his base, but it's not gonna work with Democrats.

Have you seen his approval rating? obviously it does work you also underestimate how desperate people are to have a counter puncher after 4 years of Trump and decades of republicans taking our lunch.

[Benggaul]

Have you met the average American?

I think you think too highly of the average democrat.

Anecdotal blah blah and still no real solutions.

[Edge-]

Have you seen his approval rating? obviously it does work you also underestimate how desperate people are to have a counter puncher after 4 years of Trump and decades of republicans taking our lunch.

Ok cool, so I guess we just pull from the Trump playbook or something because the production is more important than the results and whatever. Sure looks like it worked out great for his re-election, eh?

Or is it more complicated and nuanced than you're making it out to be?

[Draco-Onis]

Anecdotal blah blah and still no real solutions.

The solution is for Biden to lead especially on voting rights because if Biden cannot get that done democrats perhaps even democracy is finished.

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Ok cool, so I guess we just pull from the Trump playbook or something because the production is more important than the results and whatever. Sure looks like it worked out great for his re-election, eh?

Or is it more complicated and nuanced than you're making it out to be?

Make no mistake about it if it wasn't for COVID-19 we would have had another 4 years of Trump, considering how much of a disaster his presidency was outside of that and how close the results were (~100K votes decided) that speaks volumes of where we are as a country. There was no democratic landslide Trump won more votes not sure why you think this is a gotcha, people are tired of regular politics.

[Levelfive]

You don't think he should publicly rebuke Manchin and Sinema instead of letting them have free reign of the narrative? Biden doesn't look like he is fighting that's my point.

On the upside, after Manchin's speech, Pelosi and Jayapal both said some variation of surejan.jpg, /pat, and that they're going ahead with their plans regardless of what he says. At this point, I hope Schumer brings it to the floor and they dare Manchin and Sinema to vote it down--I hope he does this even in the event they DO vote it down. If they're going to block Biden's agenda, I want their votes on record.

It is a little weird that Manchin did this just as he was about to get his way, though, right? Like they were about to vote on infrastructure first. The only thing I can think is that McConnell or Graham or whoever was on his yacht was like, "Are you gonna let those progressives push you around blah blah and some such," but who knows. It seems like one last flex, as if to say, "I made you do the thing you were just about to do anyway!" So I'm delighted Pelosi and Jayapal were like, nah, we know you're on board, we're doing our thing, kthx. To channel Nedfunded, Jayapal is a QUEEN.

The other thing is that the American electorate has the political memory of a goldfish, and a month after this is done people aren't going to be thinking about whether Biden was tough on Joe Manchin, who gets all the hall passes he needs for his performance art, so whatever.

[Edge-]

Make no mistake about it if it wasn't for COVID-19 we would have had another 4 years of Trump

Possibly yeah. But it's almost like him treating covid like everything else in his presidency, as a stage play for the audience of America, was not exactly a winning strategy when shit needed to get done.

how close the results were (~100K votes decided) that speaks volumes of where we are as a country.

It speaks to the deep flaws within our electoral system, more than anything else.

There was no democratic landslide Trump won more votes not sure why you think this is a gotcha, people are tired of regular politics.

Won more votes, but still lost as Biden won millions more.

Sure, people are tired of regular politics to a point (though not that tired, since Biden won in part campaigning on a return to regular politics) but Trump-esque dog and pony show politics aren't any better.

Like it or not, America is still a very conservative country overall. So that's the reality we have to work with, which is why Democrats have become such a big tent party.

[Draco-Onis]

Possibly yeah. But it's almost like him treating covid like everything else in his presidency, as a stage play for the audience of America, was not exactly a winning strategy when shit needed to get done.

But you have to give him credit it worked on everything else, the reality of people you know dying wasn't one he could escape.

It speaks to the deep flaws within our electoral system, more than anything else.

A system which democrats have done nothing to change even after so long so it is the reality, Trump almost won in spite of COVID.

Won more votes, but still lost as Biden won millions more.

Sure, people are tired of regular politics to a point (though not that tired, since Biden won in part campaigning on a return to regular politics) but Trump-esque dog and pony show politics aren't any better.

Like it or not, America is still a very conservative country overall. So that's the reality we have to work with, which is why Democrats have become such a big tent party.

People voted against Trump more than they voted for Biden his enthusiasm numbers remained horrible and they have only gotten worse.

[Edge-]

But you have to give him credit it worked on everything else, the reality of people you know dying wasn't one he could escape.

...you haven't been following the news on covid then, because that's still what these folks believe even as their family members die around them.

A system which democrats have done nothing to change even after so long so it is the reality, Trump almost won in spite of COVID.

Because it would require a Constitutional Amendment, which isn't something easily done. See: The Equal Rights Amendment which has been stonewalled for 5 decades because the Republican party's love affair with racism and extremism runs deep.

People voted against Trump more than they voted for Biden his enthusiasm numbers remained horrible and they have only gotten worse.

Ok. I'm still not sure what you think the solution would be short of getting Manchin and Biden in the Oval Office, in front of cameras, so they two of them can have a wrastlin match or something.

[Shadowferal]

... Ok. I'm still not sure what you think the solution would be short of getting Manchin and Biden in the Oval Office, in front of cameras, so they two of them can have a wrastlin match or something.

If biden was younger I'd probably would pay to see that.

[Draco-Onis]

Ok. I'm still not sure what you think the solution would be short of getting Manchin and Biden in the Oval Office, in front of cameras, so they two of them can have a wrastlin match or something.

Simple control the narrative with a public tit for tat or at least get the fucker to shut the fuck up and stop showing up on every TV show because Biden has lost optics on this. Even if these bills pass the steam therefore any public benefit from them have been stripped away thanks to this shit show. You want them to do it behind the scene I am all for that but that goes for all parties involved or none at all.