Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Draco-Onis]

I grasp what's at stake. That doesn't mean that Democrats can just like, ignore the Constitution and change the lifetime appointments of Federal judges.

I'm all for them flouting a LOT more rules and playing MUCH more hardball, ignore the Senate parliamentarian and do whatever. Throw Manchin's state a few billion slush fund to buy his vote. I don't give a fuck.

But what you're proposing just doesn't reflect reality in the slightest, doesn't show a basic understanding of the function of our government, and shows little understanding of the current political makeup.

My point is currently democrats are only doing this dog and pony show where they put forth voting rights bills only to have them struck down and ring their hands with fake outrage as if the outcome was unforeseen. It currently feels like they aren't fighting not for voting rights, not for the minimum wage while coddling people like Manchin and Sinema.

[Edge-]

which he is going to get to do anyways in 1 year and the republican party will have the opportunity to appoint far more judges which they already have thanks to these laws.

...do you even realize what you wrote?

If Manchin flips, all the current openings remain open and Republicans get to fill more judicial slots.

If Manchin stays, Democrats get to keep filling those empty spots which limits how many Republicans can install. Democrats are off to a VERY fast start with this, and they should absolutely be making more hay about the work they're doing - https://news.ballotpedia.org/2021/11...ts-first-year/

You just apparently aren't paying attention to any of this.

[Draco-Onis]

So you're advocating to piss away any opportunity, however small, to even try to do something before that happens because Manchin isn't just immediately rubber stamping everything? I mean, yeah, fuck him, but "we should get everything, or else we should throw a tantrum and get nothing" is childish bullshit that displays a remarkable lack of understanding about how things actually work in the real world.

In the real world those laws will outlive Manchin that's reality not this short term thinking nothing we get out of Manchin matters if voting rights are not on the books.

[Benggaul]

Put all the pressure necessary including expulsion from the democratic party for Manchin to reform or rid of the fillibuster and pass voting rights. I am not sure why I needed to spell this out for you, if he won't do it then fuck him. Let's also point out the reason for the state of the judiciary is because democrats can't or won't change lifetime appointments.



You clearly do not grasp what is at stake, January 6th was just the start democracy will not survive the next go around and we know republicans are all in with a dictatorship. These are not normal times do everything and the kitchen sink to move Manchin on voting rights because nothing else matters.

"Expulsion from the Democratic party" doesn't work as much of a stick when Manchin has already said he'll happily go Independent. Also, fuck off with the "omg you don't grasp what's at stake" shit because you're the one who seemingly thinks having Republicans in charge is a preferable outcome. Nobody here is happy about HR1 not getting through (aside from the Trump Troll Patrol) but most see there's not a helluva lot that can be done about Manchin and/or Sinema currently, so getting through the tiny bits they can is better than just nuking the whole deal.

[Draco-Onis]

...do you even realize what you wrote?

If Manchin flips, all the current openings remain open and Republicans get to fill more judicial slots.

If Manchin stays, Democrats get to keep filling those empty spots which limits how many Republicans can install. Democrats are off to a VERY fast start with this, and they should absolutely be making more hay about the work they're doing - https://news.ballotpedia.org/2021/11...ts-first-year/

You just apparently aren't paying attention to any of this.

Your math doesn't add up 1 year of additional judicial appointments versus decades of republicans being able to do so.

[Edge-]

Your math doesn't add up 1 year of additional judicial appointments versus decades of republicans being able to do so.

Alright dude, you're just angry and not actually looking for a discussion. That's fine, vent away.

[Draco-Onis]

"Expulsion from the Democratic party" doesn't work as much of a stick when Manchin has already said he'll happily go Independent. Also, fuck off with the "omg you don't grasp what's at stake" shit because you're the one who seemingly thinks having Republicans in charge is a preferable outcome. Nobody here is happy about HR1 not getting through (aside from the Trump Troll Patrol) but most see there's not a helluva lot that can be done about Manchin and/or Sinema currently, so getting through the tiny bits they can is better than just nuking the whole deal.

Again my point is long term republicans in power will cause far more destruction than what these gains will result it. Democrats are in the game of incremental change while republicans are doing wild swings in the other direction we always end up in a worse place long term.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright dude, you're just angry and not actually looking for a discussion. That's fine, vent away.

Because I know how time works?

[DarkTZeratul]

In the real world those laws will outlive Manchin that's reality not this short term thinking nothing we get out of Manchin matters if voting rights are not on the books.

You're still insisting that if Manchin won't play ball, the Democrats should retaliate by giving up.

[Draco-Onis]

You're still insisting that if Manchin won't play ball, the Democrats should retaliate by giving up.

Who says anything about giving up? I just want to see some show of pressure on him from the white house they have so far gone out of their way to use the light touch. Biden has yet to play hard ball he's been bending over backwards to give them what they want for them to move the goal post.

[DarkTZeratul]

Who says anything about giving up?

You said if he doesn't do what they want, they should kick him out of the party, which would make Mitch McConnell majority leader and rob the Democrats of even the small amount of power they have to effect change. How is that NOT giving up?

[Edge-]

Because I know how time works?

Says the guy who complained about Democrats somehow getting a Constitutional Amendment through (not realizing it requires a Constitutional Amendment), in a single 2-year term, to end lifetime judicial appointments.

Ok.

[Draco-Onis]

You said if he doesn't do what they want, they should kick him out of the party, which would make Mitch McConnell majority leader and rob the Democrats of even the small amount of power they have to effect change. How is that NOT giving up?

Use everything including the prospect of expulsion to get this done if it doesn't get done then it doesn't matter if Mitch becomes leader we would be simply delaying the inevitable at this point.

[Edge-]

Use everything including the prospect of expulsion

You think this is a big threat for Manchin. It really isn't.

[eschatological]

I think the race that shows where we are at in politics is the one in Buffalo, both the RNC and DNC combining forces so that a progressive who won her primary wouldn't become mayor.

To be fair, the local Dems all endorsed her. As did both Dem Senators, and AOC, etc. But the state party went out of its way to do nothing for her.

[Draco-Onis]

Says the guy who complained about Democrats somehow getting a Constitutional Amendment through (not realizing it requires a Constitutional Amendment), in a single 2-year term, to end lifetime judicial appointments.

Ok.

That's another topic which I think that this is not a left and right issue but nether party has addressed it to my frustration, that doesn't have anything to do with the big picture. If you really want to get into it the whole judicial mess can be laid out on how democrats handled the Obama years again takes away from my main point.

[DarkTZeratul]

Use everything including the prospect of expulsion to get this done if it doesn't get done then it doesn't matter if Mitch becomes leader we would be simply delaying the inevitable at this point.

Okay. Let me make this absolutely clear: how does threatening to kick Manchin out of the party (which, by the way, I'm pretty sure they can't actually do, so this discussion is a bit of a moot point, but regardless), which would inevitably result in Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, in any way compel Manchin to do anything at all? "Do what we want or we forfeit" isn't an effective threat.

[Draco-Onis]

You think this is a big threat for Manchin. It really isn't.

Let's hold hand and sing koombaya with him then, how's that working out so far?

[Edge-]

Let's hold hand and sing koombaya with him then, how's that working out so far?

Less bad than the alternative. And nobody is holding hands and singing koombaya with him, he's been criticized by national Democrats including Biden.

Good lord, my guy.

[Draco-Onis]

Less bad than the alternative. And nobody is holding hands and singing koombaya with him, he's been criticized by national Democrats including Biden.

Good lord, my guy.

Biden has vaguely mentioned him goes out of his way not to put pressure on him publicly when Manchin met with civil rights leaders he said not to put pressure on him. The most forceful move Biden did was having Kamala hold something in West Virginia on an issue something they quickly apologized and walked back. I don't recall the exact detail of why she did that but it was pretty embarassing.

[PhaelixWW]

Let's hold hand and sing koombaya with him then, how's that working out so far?

...infinitely better than giving control of the Senate to the GoP?