Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Draco-Onis]

...infinitely better than giving control of the Senate to the GoP?

Control without concrete action on voting rights is short term gain for very long term losses not a very good plan, this is history repeating itself in the worst way.

[PhaelixWW]

Control without concrete action on voting rights is short term gain for very long term losses not a very good plan, this is history repeating itself in the worst way.

But there's no alternative. It's literally "status quo or lose".

Short term gain and no long term gain is better than no short term gain and no long term gain.

[Edge-]

Control without concrete action on voting rights is short term gain for very long term losses not a very good plan, this is history repeating itself in the worst way.

Again, what's the alternative, again?

Republican control to hold open more federal judgeships for when they have a Republican in the White House?

Even less chance of anything passing? Funding bills that cut even more for social services because Pelosi will be negotiating with McConnell now?

I mean, you keep talking about how bad things are now and like, nobody disagrees with you.

But you seem adamant to not explore what the alternative right now would be, and what kind of impact that would have.

[Benggaul]

Again my point is long term republicans in power will cause far more destruction than what these gains will result it. Democrats are in the game of incremental change while republicans are doing wild swings in the other direction we always end up in a worse place long term.

And again: What actual solutions do you propose? Because threatening Manchin won't achieve anything. Like it or not he's in the catbird seat and he and everyone else knows it and there's very little the rest of the Democrats can do about it. Same goes for Sinema. And if your concern is that the Republicans will be in power for the long term then pushing Manchin to join them is one silly fucking thing to suggest.

And as far as "we always end up worse in the long term" goes: bullshit. Go back 50 years and say that. Hell, go back 20. Are things as good as they should be? Fuck no, there's still a long way to go. But they're a damned sight better than they were. And if Red states want to impose draconic laws on their people that's going to end up blowing up in their faces in the long term. If they push their people enough that will be literally and not just figuratively.

I've had about enough of the circular arguments in this thread between those that will take what we can get and those that make perfect the enemy of good, so I'm taking a break on it for a while. Have fun, y'all.

[Draco-Onis]

Again, what's the alternative, again?

Republican control to hold open more federal judgeships for when they have a Republican in the White House?

Even less chance of anything passing? Funding bills that cut even more for social services because Pelosi will be negotiating with McConnell now?

I mean, you keep talking about how bad things are now and like, nobody disagrees with you.

But you seem adamant to not explore what the alternative right now would be, and what kind of impact that would have.

For 1 year 2022 is not another lifetime away, the time to do everything we can to get this done is now.

[PhaelixWW]

For 1 year 2022 is not another lifetime away, the time to do everything we can to get this done is now.

That's not a plan. What do you intend to do in 2022 if Manchin is pushed into being an Independent?

[Edge-]

For 1 year 2022 is not another lifetime away

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? We know midterms are in 2022. We know Democrats are sadly gonna probably get creamed.

But you still refuse to engage with the "now", or tell us what the preferable alternative to the current situation is that's not a fictional fantasy you've conjured up in your head.

the time to do everything we can to get this done is now.

I agree. But as has been cautioned heavily since the 2020 election, it was unlikely that a lot would get done, especially anything huge, given the makeup of the current Congress.

It's a shitty situation. There is no "good" situation. There's varying degrees of "less shitty", but that's about the best there is.

Yet you're here arguing that there's a good solution like kicking Manchin out of the party like that accomplishes or improves literally anything.

[PhaelixWW]

For 1 year 2022 is not another lifetime away, the time to do everything we can to get this done is now.

Why do you think that the threat of expelling Manchin would cause him a moment's concern?

[Draco-Onis]

That's not a plan. What do you intend to do in 2022 if Manchin is pushed into being an Independent?

Then it's moot because this is for the future of the party, if Manchin can't get this done we can all feel warm and fuzzy about keeping him in the party while we lose all the swing states.

- - - Updated - - -

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? We know midterms are in 2022. We know Democrats are sadly gonna probably get creamed.

But you still refuse to engage with the "now", or tell us what the preferable alternative to the current situation is that's not a fictional fantasy you've conjured up in your head.



I agree. But as has been cautioned heavily since the 2020 election, it was unlikely that a lot would get done, especially anything huge, given the makeup of the current Congress.

It's a shitty situation. There is no "good" situation. There's varying degrees of "less shitty", but that's about the best there is.

Yet you're here arguing that there's a good solution like kicking Manchin out of the party like that accomplishes or improves literally anything.

I am not saying kicking him out is the solution, I am saying doing put every single pressure they can publicly and privately to get voting rights pass including the option of cutting him off. The voting rights bill is so important without it there's no point just holding the majority for 1 year.

[Edge-]

if Manchin can't get this done we can all feel warm and fuzzy about keeping him in the party while we lose all the swing states.

With the alternative that you still never refuse to engage with being...?

That he joins the Republican party, gives them the majority, those states flip anyways, and now the Republicans have far more consistent +1 in the Senate?

I guess we're not playing 47D chess.

[PhaelixWW]

I am not saying kicking him out is the solution, I am saying doing put every single pressure they can publicly and privately to get voting rights pass including the option of cutting him off. The voting rights bill is so important without it there's no point just holding the majority for 1 year.

Again, why do you think that the threat of expelling Manchin would cause him a moment's concern?

I would imagine that his odds of re-election only go up if he's an Independent, considering his constituency.

[Edge-]

I am saying doing put every single pressure they can publicly and privately to get voting rights pass including the option of cutting him off. The voting rights bill is so important without it there's no point just holding the majority for 1 year.

How do you know they're not? Are you in all those meetings?

I agree, I'm absolutely furious that Manchin has stalled voting rights and I've voiced my displeasure to his office about it, even as a non-WV resident.

But you still fail to present any alternative beyond vague "just pressure him more!" with your ultimate pressure point seemingly being "kick him out of the party" which again, isn't the threat you still seem to think it is for him.

[Edge-]

Why is the assumption that Biden/the admin just aren't doing anything to pressure Manchin/Sinema, anyway? Because the public just don't see it all?

There is only so much that can be done, especially publicly.

Per earlier arguments yes, because it wasn't publicly being "negotiated" to give the appearance that things were getting done, that meant nothing was getting done.

Even with the actual meat and potatoes of bills being negotiated and written behind closed doors.

It's the, "Trump is the worstestest but also do these pointless, performative things he did because it looks like things are happening. Then I'll complain about how they still aren't happening anyways because the public performance isn't where work gets done." nonsense.

[Draco-Onis]

Why is the assumption that Biden/the admin just aren't doing anything to pressure Manchin/Sinema, anyway? Because the public just don't see it all?

There is only so much that can be done, especially publicly.

People can only vote for what they see, if they can't see then the results should be the ultimate visual. I will be more than happy to be wrong and before 2022 we have the voting rights bill pass it's just with the current information we have it doesn't look like that's the case. There is a small chance that republicans will overplay their hand on the debt ceiling and that will trigger filibuster reform that was the only time Biden wanted to move on it.

There is also that Biden has been very shy about abolishing the filibuster he has even sided with Manchin defending it.

[Draco-Onis]

Per earlier arguments yes, because it wasn't publicly being "negotiated" to give the appearance that things were getting done, that meant nothing was getting done.

Even with the actual meat and potatoes of bills being negotiated and written behind closed doors.

It's the, "Trump is the worstestest but also do these pointless, performative things he did because it looks like things are happening. Then I'll complain about how they still aren't happening anyways because the public performance isn't where work gets done." nonsense.

Hey I get it your thinking is have faith but you have to admit democrats haven't given much reason to have this faith so I remain skeptical again hopefully I am wrong.

[Edge-]

There is also that Biden has been very shy about abolishing the filibuster he has even sided with Manchin defending it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/21/u...ng-rights.html

He's talked about it. But ultimately he has literally no control over this. It's a Senate issue handled internally by the Senate. Biden's approval/disapproval of it doesn't mean a fuck since he has no authority to do anything about it.

[Draco-Onis]

I think you probably attribute more power to Biden than he actually has, and you've somehow developed a very defeatist attitude to things.

The president has a great deal of power especially the one that his position affords him to dominate headlines, I am just frustrated that democrats and the president are acting as if we are in normal times.

[Milchshake]

Why is the assumption that Biden/the admin just aren't doing anything to pressure Manchin/Sinema, anyway? Because the public just don't see it all?

There is only so much that can be done, especially publicly.

That was the point i made in my previous post. Outrage Mongers refuse to acknowledge any steps or accomplishments to maintain their grift. They are only capable of reacting to a Political Theater that willfully ignores facts.

Hence there's an easy to distinguish line between Progressives versus Cosplay Progressives.

Once of the most basic parts of activism is to recognize the work of peers and allies, Cosplay Progressives are not even capable of this.

#notAllprogressives

#kinda like berniebros are not all bernie supporters.

[Edge-]

The president has a great deal of power especially the one that his position affords him to dominate headlines

Why do you think that getting media attention = power? This is nonsense. Influence maybe, but power is dictated by the Constitution.

In this context, the Executive branch has zero powers to do anything with the Senate and filibuster.

This is where more civic litreacy.

I am just frustrated that democrats and the president are acting as if we are in normal times.

They're...not? They just can't rush through legislation given the current makeup of the Legislature and shit as we've already covered?

[PhaelixWW]

The president has a great deal of power especially the one that his position affords him to dominate headlines, I am just frustrated that democrats and the president are acting as if we are in normal times.

It's sad. You literally cannot articulate how threatening to expel Manchin from the Democratic party will have an effect, no matter how many times the question is asked of you.

It's like you're just saying "Well, we have to do something!" which is basically a little kid's retort.

What exactly do you see happening if that threat is levied?