Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[PACOX]

Moreover, I think Reagan, oddly enough, said it best:

“If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”

Democrats do have more popular ideas, but they couch them in poorly thought out names or obscure phrases or other things that require explanations

Defund the police is a perfect example. Most people would agree that police reforms of some sort are necessary. But the name is terrible. If you had to “well actually it means…” your supposedly pithy slogan, it’s not a very good slogan.

Keep the progressive policies, but hire a marketing team to sell them as simply and efficiently as possible. Put the republicans on the backfoot on explaining why America shouldn’t have these things, instead of having democrats have to explain why they should.

'Defund the police' was axed as a phrase and many Democratic politicians still abandoned reforms though.

Evidence that the phrase actually led the lost of seats is also weak in post-election analysis. Maybe the real messaging issue is that the party has no real or coherent message. It relies too much on being the 'rational alternative' to the GOP, which means nothing once Democrats are in power and campaign rhetoric falls flat.

- - - Updated - - -

@Endus and others. The abortion thing is incredibly simple. The Right believes it's murder, so all other reasons why it should be legal is like shouting at a wall. The best and really only reason why it is and should still be legal is the liberty for one to choose what happens to their body. If a person was found to have some unique blood or antibodies that could be donated to help make a worldwide cure for some actual terrible malady, they cannot be forced to donate anything. In that same sense, you can't force a woman to keep a pregnancy if she doesn't want it. Side note, the Right had ads touting the stupid nonsense of an abortion at 8-9 months, when it was completely an argument in bad faith. Those are rare as shit and will typically happen if it's discovered it'll be a stillborn or will have severe birth defects or will affect the woman in a negative way.

The Right only agrees on two things when it comes to abortion. It's a great way to manufacture votes and restrictions only apply to certain classes of people.

Religious arguments fall apart if the religion starts with a C and critically exam all text, taking note of context, purpose, and significance, not just a select few.

Practical, (secular) ethical, and scientific arguments have no legs.

Its all about control and manipulating single issue voters.

[Edge-]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/comm...ll-2021-12-20/

The main union representing U.S. coal miners urged West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin to reconsider his opposition to the Biden administration's $1.75 trillion climate and social spending bill to preserve measures that would have benefited its members.

United Mine Workers of America International President Cecil Roberts, a long-time ally of Manchin's, said the sweeping bill contained important measures like an extension of funding to aid victims of black lung disease, tax incentives to urge manufacturers to build new factories and employ ex-miners, and protect union workers.

“For those and other reasons, we are disappointed that the bill will not pass. We urge Senator Manchin to revisit his opposition to this legislation and work with his colleagues to pass something that will help keep coal miners working, and have a meaningful impact on our members, their families and their communities," Roberts said on Monday.

Manchin should just come out and admit he's a corporate shill. His own voters want this shit passed, including the coal miners and union members he claims to love so much.

[Armael]

'Defund the police' was axed as a phrase and many Democratic politicians still abandoned reforms though.

Evidence that the phrase actually led the lost of seats is also weak in post-election analysis. Maybe the real messaging issue is that the party has no real or coherent message. It relies too much on being the 'rational alternative' to the GOP, which means nothing once Democrats are in power and campaign rhetoric falls flat.

- - - Updated - - -



The Right only agrees on two things when it comes to abortion. It's a great way to manufacture votes and restrictions only apply to certain classes of people.

Religious arguments fall apart if the religion starts with a C and critically exam all text, taking note of context, purpose, and significance, not just a select few.

Practical, (secular) ethical, and scientific arguments have no legs.

Its all about control and manipulating single issue voters.

Yes, it is ultimately about control. The party of limited government definitely wants the government to tell women what they can't do. These same people that are foaming at the mouth against abortion will make sure their pregnant mistresses will get an abortion, though.

[Draco-Onis]

https://www.reuters.com/markets/comm...ll-2021-12-20/



Manchin should just come out and admit he's a corporate shill. His own voters want this shit passed, including the coal miners and union members he claims to love so much.

There is a good possibility that Manchin will just retire after this and go swimming in his money Scrooge McDuck style. He is hogging the spot light way too much even Trump would be shocked by this level of lime light hogging.

[Fugus]

There is a good possibility that Manchin will just retire after this and go swimming in his money Scrooge McDuck style. He is hogging the spot light way too much even Trump would be shocked by this level of lime light hogging.

As sad as it is, he might well be planning that and giving the middle finger on his way out.

About the only way to force his hand on that note would be to start hosting attack ads pointing out his kids by name and photo and how his actions benefit his kids at the expense of everyone else.

Make it where his kids are associated with his actions as well as his grandkids where the last thing he wants is them getting the social stigma attached to his actions.

Outside of that, he likely sees himself as untouchable and getting a golden parachute on his way out the door by donors in the process.

[Draco-Onis]

As sad as it is, he might well be planning that and giving the middle finger on his way out.

About the only way to force his hand on that note would be to start hosting attack ads pointing out his kids by name and photo and how his actions benefit his kids at the expense of everyone else.

Make it where his kids are associated with his actions as well as his grandkids where the last thing he wants is them getting the social stigma attached to his actions.

Outside of that, he likely sees himself as untouchable and getting a golden parachute on his way out the door by donors in the process.

If democrats were that kind of party they would just use opposition research to destroy his "legacy", people like him aka Joe Liberman types only care about that. The articles talking about how he thinks the child tax credit will be used by West Virginians on drugs and they will use family leave to go hunting are good starts. This is his weak spot destroy his image you aren't getting anything worth a shit out of him anyways may as well salvage Biden's image since he now looks like a sucker.

[Shadowferal]

When are we changing the thread title to 'Manchin/Sinema Focused Discussion'?

They're the leaders of this country right now. Biden has no authority over them at all.

Maybe we should give Manchin Biden another chance.

[Fugus]

If democrats were that kind of party they would just use opposition research to destroy his "legacy", people like him aka Joe Liberman types only care about that. The articles talking about how he thinks the child tax credit will be used by West Virginians on drugs and they will use family leave to go hunting are good starts. This is his weak spot destroy his image you aren't getting anything worth a shit out of him anyways may as well salvage Biden's image since he now looks like a sucker.

Yeah but, again, that requires the Democrats to actually show some balls and initiative, something they have never done except when attacking progressives within their own party. Right wingers or Republicans, to actually show some balls against them when you have the ability to do so directly goes against the game theory I suggested may be played earlier that Endus is says is messed up.

No, the only way this gets done is for a private 3rd party to run the ads themselves and run them for months and months and maybe a year or more and use his actual actions and his actual families information to back it up. Make it completely honest, accurate, and legal. Force his kids to deal with the fallout of being associated with their dads actions and forced to own up to how their dad put their own short term gains ahead of their own kids long term futures.

Destroy his image with his own actions and tarnish anything his kids get with his actions as well. Have it known he willingly damaged this nation and sold the nation and the environment out just to help his kid. THAT will get his attention more than anything else and he knows that he will not get out of this with his legacy intact as anything but a traitor and a putz. When his kids own job prospects start suffering because of their association with him and their own friends start looking down on them, that is what hits home. And if his kid was a standup guy to begin with, he would have told his dad not to hurt the nation just to help his employer, so he will have earned that image.

And make sure to let it be known that if he or his family moves, these ads will be aired where ever they move to.

[PACOX]

There is a good possibility that Manchin will just retire after this and go swimming in his money Scrooge McDuck style. He is hogging the spot light way too much even Trump would be shocked by this level of lime light hogging.

More reason for the party to operate as if he is not even there. No point in kissing his ass and trying to save face in WV if he is not a future prospect.

One unofficial role Presidents are expected to undertake is to get Congress in line with their agenda. If a representative(s) are upholding the parties agenda like Manchin you isolate and call that rep out. Get them on board. Biden has been very passive and weak on that front and that's why people throw out 'who is really running the show'.

[Armael]

Horse and water, at a certain point it isn't his(Biden's) fault.

[s_bushido]

The abortion thing is incredibly simple. The Right believes it's murder, so all other reasons why it should be legal is like shouting at a wall.

No they don't. If they did, they'd be advocating jail time for anyone involved in the practice. Doctors, nurses, clinic employees, and the people who get their pregnancies terminated. They don't do that, because they don't actually believe their bullshit. It's just a political football for these fuckers.

[Draco-Onis]

More reason for the party to operate as if he is not even there. No point in kissing his ass and trying to save face in WV if he is not a future prospect.

One unofficial role Presidents are expected to undertake is to get Congress in line with their agenda. If a representative(s) are upholding the parties agenda like Manchin you isolate and call that rep out. Get them on board. Biden has been very passive and weak on that front and that's why people throw out 'who is really running the show'.

Let's face it's not going to happen Biden has been the ghost president, his negotiating strategy is on the same level as Trump. Biden gave Manchin everything he wanted and then he got told to get fucked, this is the death kneel of Biden's legacy. They should have spend more time doing the work and less time masturbating about how Biden is FDR.

[Paranoid Android]

Coal miners' union urges Manchin to reconsider opposition to Biden plan

Pfft! These are the workers, Manchin only listens to coal barons.

[Kaleredar]

More reason for the party to operate as if he is not even there. No point in kissing his ass and trying to save face in WV if he is not a future prospect.

One unofficial role Presidents are expected to undertake is to get Congress in line with their agenda. If a representative(s) are upholding the parties agenda like Manchin you isolate and call that rep out. Get them on board. Biden has been very passive and weak on that front and that's why people throw out 'who is really running the show'.

Biden just handed a written letter as short of saying “fuck you” as possible to manchin.

What does being “tough” on manchin look like? Y’all keep citing these weird 5-d armchair politics decisions you want the democrats to do but forget to mention the part where it makes manchin actually comply with what they want.

[Endus]

Biden just handed a written letter as short of saying “fuck you” as possible to manchin.

What does being “tough” on manchin look like? Y’all keep citing these weird 5-d armchair politics decisions you want the democrats to do but forget to mention the part where it makes manchin actually comply with what they want.

Just in terms of practice short of actual legal procedures (such as impeachment), there's denying him a spot on any and all committees, having no one co-sign or support any legislation Manchin brings forth, and so on.

Manchin ends up being a vote, and otherwise having no meaningful contributions to governance whatsoever. His input is no longer sought on anything, and his interests and concerns are ignored by his own party.

That'll lead to him being totally ineffective for his constituents, who might vote him out of office as a consequence.

He's currently Chairman for the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, he's on the Senate Committees for Appropriations, Armed Services, and Veteran's Affairs. He has no capacity to retain any of those. The Democrats can and should summarily remove him from all of those positions immediately.

[Armael]

No they don't. If they did, they'd be advocating jail time for anyone involved in the practice. Doctors, nurses, clinic employees, and the people who get their pregnancies terminated. They don't do that, because they don't actually believe their bullshit. It's just a political football for these fuckers.

They have pushed for those things before. They do ultimately have their "Pro-Life" stance because they believe it's murder (it is intertwined with their religious beliefs that it's "alive" and you must live with the consequences of sex).

- - - Updated - - -

Just in terms of practice short of actual legal procedures (such as impeachment), there's denying him a spot on any and all committees, having no one co-sign or support any legislation Manchin brings forth, and so on.

Manchin ends up being a vote, and otherwise having no meaningful contributions to governance whatsoever. His input is no longer sought on anything, and his interests and concerns are ignored by his own party.

That'll lead to him being totally ineffective for his constituents, who might vote him out of office as a consequence.

He's currently Chairman for the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, he's on the Senate Committees for Appropriations, Armed Services, and Veteran's Affairs. He has no capacity to retain any of those. The Democrats can and should summarily remove him from all of those positions immediately.

As bad as he is, noone more left leaning will primary him, and if anyone did, would lose to the R opponent. So as much as Manchin sucks while the Senate is 50/50; we'd be worse off if an R was in his place. He mostly votes in line with the Democrats on most issues. An R in that spot would vote probably 0 of the time with the D's.

[Endus]

As bad as he is, noone more left leaning will primary him, and if anyone did, would lose to the R opponent. So as much as Manchin sucks while the Senate is 50/50; we'd be worse off if an R was in his place. He mostly votes in line with the Democrats on most issues. An R in that spot would vote probably 0 of the time with the D's.

And that's a game that leads to everyone losing, forever. It's a slow spiral down a drain.

The only way out is to swim against the current. If Manchin's gonna lie to other Democrats' faces as he has over the BBB, he's not cooperating and can't be trusted, and supporting that just lets the rot continue. It's the lazy way to go, because it requires no effort, but it also ensures nothing ever improves.

The alternative isn't comfortable, and could lead to a lot of further problems, but it's the only way out. The country falling apart under Republican rule might spark changes in voting practices that lead to a proper resurgence of Democratic support. If it doesn't, then the country's already lost and you're marking time until the corpse slides down the drain; it's already dead and there's no saving it.

And before anyone accuses me of "doom and gloom", I consider a potential outcome of the country's "failure" and "death" to be a relatively peaceful split into two or more nations, along ideological lines, letting the South finally secede off into being their own country while the coasts go another way. I'm not talking about a collapse into anarchy and civil war or something, just that the American system of government has come to its functional end and a reformation of some​ form is overdue.

[PACOX]

Biden just handed a written letter as short of saying “fuck you” as possible to manchin.

What does being “tough” on manchin look like? Y’all keep citing these weird 5-d armchair politics decisions you want the democrats to do but forget to mention the part where it makes manchin actually comply with what they want.

That letter isn't the space it takes up on a hard drive. That's why Manchin only grew more brazen after it was released. They could have at least said it came directly from Biden but even that would have 'too bold' for him.

[DingDongKing]

They’re better off asking Manchin and Sinema to leave the party, so at least they can then get their own candidates in those states. And they also then know who their enemies are, instead of being torn apart from the inside.

Maybe we should give Manchin Biden another chance.

As much as Trump was a total cuntbucket, the party toed the line. He got what he wanted.

Biden seems to be incapable of getting the party to toe the line, and that's a shitshow.

[Gestopft]

Just in terms of practice short of actual legal procedures (such as impeachment), there's denying him a spot on any and all committees, having no one co-sign or support any legislation Manchin brings forth, and so on.

Manchin ends up being a vote, and otherwise having no meaningful contributions to governance whatsoever. His input is no longer sought on anything, and his interests and concerns are ignored by his own party.

That'll lead to him being totally ineffective for his constituents, who might vote him out of office as a consequence.

He's currently Chairman for the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, he's on the Senate Committees for Appropriations, Armed Services, and Veteran's Affairs. He has no capacity to retain any of those. The Democrats can and should summarily remove him from all of those positions immediately.

He also "represents" one of the reddest states in the country; the "Joe Manchin could switch parties" threat isn't exactly an empty one. Hell, the governor of his state did it just a few years ago. Not saying Democrats should do none of that, but you do have to consider that it can get a lot worse than "failing to pass anything meaningful."

- - - Updated - - -

They’re better off asking Manchin and Sinema to leave the party, so at least they can then get their own candidates in those states. And they also then know who their enemies are, instead of being torn apart from the inside.

They should probably wait until we know the results of 2022. Judges are a thing, after all.