Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[NED funded]

You literally don't know how student loans work, the loan gets applied to your tuition and fees overtime which means you have to go to school.

Well duh. This is why I recommended it to students

It's only free money if you don't count the hours you have to spend in school and the required GPA you have to keep.

???

That is already a part of being a student. Biden is essentially giving you 50 thousand dollars for free and is in the talks of fully cancelling federal loans

https://twitter.com/edokeefe/status/1518951906953076737

If you have not reached that limit do it. Max out your federal loans too

[Draco-Onis]

Well duh. This is why I recommended it to students



???

That is already a part of being a student. Biden is essentially giving you 50 thousand dollars for free and is in the talks of fully cancelling federal loans

https://twitter.com/edokeefe/status/1518951906953076737

If you have not reached that limit do it. Max out your federal loans too

How is it free? you know you aren't using the money for food / shelter and other things and there's a marginal cost to being a student instead of you know working.

[Ivanstone]

You think the money students borrowed for college hasn't already been spent? Or what about telling America the college degrees they obtained through the debt were a massive ripoff, through the underlying rationale for the cancellation?

I'm not invested enough in the "cancelling student debt is an incredibly dumb idea" argument to say I can analyze everything you want to place in the 'pro' column for what's true, false, and in between. If that's what you're really looking for. I can read and learn more on the subject. Let me start here: Let's say your fraternal twin came up to me and said saddling people with thousands of dollars of debt in their mortgages is a terrible idea, we need to cancel all housing debt, and as a bonus, we get further than the third of Americans under 30 with student loan debt.

The key difference here is the education market and the housing market are two totally different things. The former shouldn't exist in the first place. Secondly, since we have to put up with the idea of an education market we need to consider a few things. As a Canadian I had to pay for university. My degree would've been a lot more in the US. It would've been free in some European countries. Americans are screwed over since the US governments (all 3 levels) don't support post-secondary education enough which makes tuition more expensive even at legitimate schools. America also has a severe problem with illegitimate schools who only exist to grift the student loan system without providing adequate education. And this is why the student loan crisis exists in the first place.

After we fix the student loan problem then people will have enough money to play the housing market game. I don't mind the existence of the housing market but its also full of its own pitfalls where people can take an out-sized loan for a shitty house or have speculators artificially driving up the price. Actually, maybe some mortgage relief would be nice since the government isn't doing a great job of fixing those problems.

[NED funded]

How is it free? you know you aren't using the money for food / shelter and other things and there's a marginal cost to being a student instead of you know working.

You can use student loans for food and shelter.

You can even throw that money on robinhood i you want.

[Kaleredar]

You can use student loans for food and shelter.

You can even throw that money on robinhood i you want.

Seeing as rent is extremely expensive, and you have to live somewhere… that’s fine by me.

[Edge-]

You can use student loans for food and shelter.

You can even throw that money on robinhood i you want.

Stop talking about it dude. Just do it.

[Elegiac]

You can use student loans for food and shelter.

Because as we all know, college students don't neat to eat or have somewhere to live.

[Endus]

You can use student loans for food and shelter.

You can even throw that money on robinhood i you want.

While accepted to and attending college, and paying tuition accordingly.

You seem to keep ignoring that part.

[tehdang]

The key difference here is the education market and the housing market are two totally different things. The former shouldn't exist in the first place. Secondly, since we have to put up with the idea of an education market we need to consider a few things. As a Canadian I had to pay for university. My degree would've been a lot more in the US. It would've been free in some European countries. Americans are screwed over since the US governments (all 3 levels) don't support post-secondary education enough which makes tuition more expensive even at legitimate schools. America also has a severe problem with illegitimate schools who only exist to grift the student loan system without providing adequate education. And this is why the student loan crisis exists in the first place.

After we fix the student loan problem then people will have enough money to play the housing market game. I don't mind the existence of the housing market but its also full of its own pitfalls where people can take an out-sized loan for a shitty house or have speculators artificially driving up the price. Actually, maybe some mortgage relief would be nice since the government isn't doing a great job of fixing those problems.

I acknowledge differences, but when we’re talking burden shifting, the talk needs to include a regressive system of making the working class and lower classes pay for elites. Student loan debt is concentrated among higher education, income, and wealth. Opponents would be fools to not talk about this issue as a tax cut for the rich. That’s who gets the most benefit.

And for-profit ed is a drop in the bucket compared to the inflation in education costs. Look at any graph on the median costs/mean costs of obtaining degrees over time. Inflation in cost even outpaces health care. Subsidizing that cost through bad loan issuance and forgiving the debt later just makes the problem of increasing cost worse.

I’ll use other debts, theoretically forgivable, as an example of measures that wouldn’t as disproportionately favor a small segment of society. I don’t mean it to say all debt is interchangeable and ubiquitous.

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If the press didnt get it wrong so far or there are massive changes its going to end up being free money. Like that business loan program they did a while back

My advice for students take a student loan worth whatever Biden is going to forgive and you have basically made that money for free. It literally shouldnt matter you are not footing the bill and literally no one will blame you for it

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Everyone is getting 50 thousand dollars worth of their student loans forgiven. Like rn as is, there are no income checks to see if people that are struggling to pay their students aren't getting mixed with people that are incredibly well off

This is a more succinct version. If this goes through as some of Biden’s base is pushing for, it becomes free money.

[DarkTZeratul]

Student loan debt is concentrated among higher education, income, and wealth.

This is truly the height of truthiness. You may feel this is true. It's not. People from higher income and wealth are typically less likely to need to take out student loans in the first place, as they can afford to go to college without them, and a great many people who take them do not earn a sufficient return to easily pay them off.

[Endus]

I acknowledge differences, but when we’re talking burden shifting, the talk needs to include a regressive system of making the working class and lower classes pay for elites.

Only in condemning that idea as supremely and harmfully classist and bringing with it not a single benefit.

Student loan debt is concentrated among higher education, income, and wealth. Opponents would be fools to not talk about this issue as a tax cut for the rich. That’s who gets the most benefit.

Yeah, no. It isn't the wealthy who are the most prevalent in college. It's the middle-class. There's just way more of 'em.

And the biggest barrier to people in lower economic strata entering college is funding. If we're talking about eliminating student debts, they're the ones who benefit the most, because we're talking about enabling far more access to college period.

And for-profit ed is a drop in the bucket compared to the inflation in education costs. Look at any graph on the median costs/mean costs of obtaining degrees over time. Inflation in cost even outpaces health care. Subsidizing that cost through bad loan issuance and forgiving the debt later just makes the problem of increasing cost worse.

The primary increase in education costs causing said inflation is profiteering on tuition rates. For-profit colleges are the cause.

You're also complaining about capitalist economics. Have you come over to seeing socialist systems as better?

And finally; forgiving debts does not make increasing costs "worse". There's no correlation, other than the possibility that for-profit schools are engaged in rampant profiteering. And again; welcome to capitalism. If you've got a problem with that, you've got a problem with private ownership of the means of production.

[Edge-]

This is truly the height of truthiness. You may feel this is true.

As Newt Gingrich highlighted not too long ago, feeling is all that matters -

[gondrin]

Do you think I can still get free money from the student forgiveness thing if I take a loan rn?

Only if you work for the government or a non-profit AND make payments for 10 years nonstop. These also have to federal loans issued by the government, not a bank or private institution. Also, you cannot default on your loan at ANY time during it. So, not sure how it is free money as you have to pay part of it back(120 qualifying payments).

[tehdang]

This is truly the height of truthiness. You may feel this is true. It's not. People from higher income and wealth are typically less likely to need to take out student loans in the first place, as they can afford to go to college without them, and a great many people who take them do not earn a sufficient return to easily pay them off.

From the center-left to left-wing Brooking's Institution: Student loan forgiveness is regressive whether measured by income, education, or wealth.

You want "the height of truthiness." I'm wondering if there's even a hint of humility on people believing differently due to actual reasons supported by real evidence. My hypothesis is definitely no. I'd be very happy to be pleasantly surprised.

[uuuhname]

From the center-left to left-wing Brooking's Institution

another lie so absurd you have to believe the people you're talking to can't put clothes on in the morning.

who the fuck cares if someone making 6 figures has their debt wiped out.. if it means people who have to work 80 hours a week making just above poverty wages get their debt taken away as well.

I guess I'm just not a self centered prick.

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I mean, who the fuck here is arguing that student debt forgiveness is the end all way to fix income inequality?

anyone?

aaaaanyone?

[Edge-]

https://www.businessinsider.com/gop-...llation-2022-4

Welp, just a reminder of where the parties stand: While Biden is looking into continued pauses on repayments and limited forgiveness for many folks, Republicans are going the opposite direction.

Five GOP Senators have introduced legislation that would prevent the Biden administration from extending the pause on student-loan payments, and would also prohibit the administration from cancelling any debt in connection with a national emergency.

Reminder that Republicans hate working people and poor people and people who do what they're told to make a better life for themselves only to find out they've been lied to and saddled with crippling debt to follow them for potentially the rest of their lives.

[Endus]

I mean, who the fuck here is arguing that student debt forgiveness is the end all way to fix income inequality?

anyone?

aaaaanyone?

Just "maybe letting banks and other lenders engage in abusive and predatory practices is a bad thing". Even if it's not the poor who suffer the most thereby.

[uuuhname]

Just "maybe letting banks and other lenders engage in abusive and predatory practices is a bad thing". Even if it's not the poor who suffer the most thereby.

or if you really want to deal with white and black wealth inequality you'll need to be a bit more radical than "means testing" everything....

[Endus]

or if you really want to deal with white and black wealth inequality you'll need to be a bit more radical than "means testing" everything....

Means testing itself is basically garbage. The entire concept.

[Ripster42]

From the center-left to left-wing Brooking's Institution: Student loan forgiveness is regressive whether measured by income, education, or wealth.

Do you know what "Student loan forgiveness is regressive" means in this context? Because it doesn't sound like you do, or you wouldn't have linked this. More than 50% of all student loans are held by people in the lowest quintile. Literally fig. 1 in your link. The top 20% hold less than 8% of all student loan debt. Your link backs up exactly what @DarkTZeratul said.