Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Greyvax]

So are you asking people to somehow know they have a well-paying job in their field waiting for them in four years before they even start college? Because that's literally insane.

i mean, i paid 40k for an engineering degree, because there are many good entry level opportunities out there, with upside movement.

how someone can actually take out 100k+ in student loans with zero knowledge on what the career outlook appears in their field, just shows their irresponsible decision making. then they get a $13/hr job at starbucks while blaming everyone else for "forcing them to do college".

[Edge-]

i mean, i paid 40k for an engineering degree, because there are many good entry level opportunities out there, with upside movement.

how someone can actually take out 100k+ in student loans with zero knowledge on what the career outlook appears in their field, just shows their irresponsible decision making. then they get a $13/hr job at starbucks while blaming everyone else for "forcing them to do college".

I mean, when your entire childhood you're told by every adult/authority figure, "Go to college! Get a degree! That will get you a great job! If you get advanced degrees that's even better!" and then you do that...it's kinda not entirely on "you" at that point because you were fed decades of bad information.

I wish we didn't have a few decades of that being the standard line and continued to encourage people to go into trades instead, but there was a whole boomer "You don't want to do manual labor in the trades, work in the office where the big money is!" line of BS that was fed to us for a long while.

I'm not saying that folks like that hypothetical student have no responsibility in these decisions, but when your decisions are based off of dogshit information fed to you for most of your life with few tools to practically/realistically "fact check" that information, it's not surprising you make bad choices. But that's not entirely your fault, the information you were provided was dogshit.

[Draco-Onis]

i mean, i paid 40k for an engineering degree, because there are many good entry level opportunities out there, with upside movement.

how someone can actually take out 100k+ in student loans with zero knowledge on what the career outlook appears in their field, just shows their irresponsible decision making. then they get a $13/hr job at starbucks while blaming everyone else for "forcing them to do college".

I am not sure what universe you live in but in reality during the 4 years you are in college a lot can happen that is out of your control such as a major financial crisis, global pandemic. You know the type of things that affect different fields in unexpected ways so to put your starting salary back from where it should be when you researched it.

Although I don't doubt your scenario exist it's not the majority.

[Dontrike]

i mean, i paid 40k for an engineering degree, because there are many good entry level opportunities out there, with upside movement.

how someone can actually take out 100k+ in student loans with zero knowledge on what the career outlook appears in their field, just shows their irresponsible decision making. then they get a $13/hr job at starbucks while blaming everyone else for "forcing them to do college".

I see this argument a lot and I can only wonder how the hell you are supposed to foresee the future and know what career in 10-25 years will be relevant. It's always "engineers" that say this too, as though everyone is supposed to become an engineer just because.

[Paranoid Android]

Go BIGGER!! The Dems should be super aggressive in any debt relief they can act right now. Everything is political and maybe they are saving some bullets for 2024 but being aggressive on federal debt relief is a bold policy that Dems need to pursue. Obviously I want policy, but yeah that's a pie in the sky.

I also love Dems who are not really on board with this. Once more showing how libbbbbbberal or left the Dem party is. The Dem party has to internally fight for this, not a string showing for Leftism.

Who cares about the arguments? Trump literally gave money to farmers, actually most went to corporations. The rich look for every tax break they can get so eff them. This doesn't help people with no college education. Sure, yet it helps people and with the earning cap helps people who are middle-class, college educated. As stated the Dems need to be bold to help non college educated in some way. I'm for it.

Edit: Reading more social media now and LOVE the Republican tears!

[Zan15]

Imagine crying about debt as an older right wing nut.... while your generation and your parents will be leaving future generations with 30+ trillion in debt, 50 trillion in underfunded liabilities and a social security system that will fall 24% short of being able to pay its bills.

I wonder if these same people will remember this when they want a bail out for SS because they never paid enough into the system but still want 100% + out of it.

[Paranoid Android]

Imagine crying about debt as an older right wing nut.... while your generation and your parents will be leaving future generations with 30+ trillion in debt, 50 trillion in underfunded liabilities and a social security system that will fall 24% short of being able to pay its bills.

I wonder if these same people will remember this when they want a bail out for SS because they never paid enough into the system but still want 100% + out of it.

They really are entitled pieces of crap. The Boomer Generation, our worst generation, had everything given to them. A time before them and their parents, decided the rich had to become richer. To stay specific here, the incredible rise of tuition over the wage most Americans cant afford to go to college. The boomers got to exploit our country like no other. Shut up and just die quietly or let other people try to get help to live a life that will likely never equal a boomer.

Edit. I just also can't believe how stupidly brain washed people are when they think someone who is more financially close to them get a break, when rich people and corporations take any tax break or whatever money they can steal from the federal government is crazy.

The rich laugh in the faces of people who were brainwashed not to take government money, while the rich take every chance they get.

[Canpinter]

Ok dumb question cause I have never had student loans, would this debt cancellation lower someone's monthly payments or just shorten the duration of the loan or both?

[Paranoid Android]

As I stated, for those who swear the Dems are some left group.


Student loan relief is not free. It would be paid for. Part of it would be paid for by the 87% of Americans who do not benefit but lose out from inflation. Part of it would be paid for by future spending cuts & tax increases—with uncertainty about who will bear those costs.

Jason Furman is a former Obama appointee Council of Economic Advisers and US Economic Council. Furman is son of a billionaire real estate magnet. Went to private schools and of course Harvard. His brother is a Obama appointee judge. No elitism here folks.

Can an economist make is expert opinion or analysis on this subject? Sure. Yet, he is a Democrat fighting against policy that can once more help millions of people, while I stated so many times, the rich take money all the time. Of course his words are being used against the Dems as an former Obama official. Probably doesn't hurt overall, just stating that inside the Dem party this was a fight. Have to sorta give props to Brandon.

[Veggie50]

Ok dumb question cause I have never had student loans, would this debt cancellation lower someone's monthly payments or just shorten the duration of the loan or both?

Both. And more.

If you earn under 125k a year, 10k is just poof, off the bill. 20k in some specific cases.

Furthermore, there is the norm you pay 10% of your “free” income. Thats your income minus some bare minimum. This norm is now lowered to 5%.

If you’re still paying after 20 years, the final 12k of your loan is forgiven. This threshold is lowered to 10 years.

One more thing, as long as you pay by the 5% norm, interest no longer applies.

[fwc577]

Both. And more.

If you earn under 125k a year, 10k is just poof, off the bill. 20k in some specific cases.

Furthermore, there is the norm you pay 10% of your “free” income. Thats your income minus some bare minimum. This norm is now lowered to 5%.

If you’re still paying after 20 years, the final 12k of your loan is forgiven. This threshold is lowered to 10 years.

One more thing, as long as you pay by the 5% norm, interest no longer applies.

I need to review IDR now because at 5%, it might lower my payment slightly but that will be interest-free which is the best part.

[Slybak]

As I stated, for those who swear the Dems are some left group.


Student loan relief is not free. It would be paid for. Part of it would be paid for by the 87% of Americans who do not benefit but lose out from inflation. Part of it would be paid for by future spending cuts & tax increases—with uncertainty about who will bear those costs.

Jason Furman is a former Obama appointee Council of Economic Advisers and US Economic Council. Furman is son of a billionaire real estate magnet. Went to private schools and of course Harvard. His brother is a Obama appointee judge. No elitism here folks.

Can an economist make is expert opinion or analysis on this subject? Sure. Yet, he is a Democrat fighting against policy that can once more help millions of people, while I stated so many times, the rich take money all the time. Of course his words are being used against the Dems as an former Obama official. Probably doesn't hurt overall, just stating that inside the Dem party this was a fight. Have to sorta give props to Brandon.

When all loan payments were suspended in 2020 because of COVID Furman said it wouldn't have an appreciable net benefit toward keeping the economy afloat. Two years later he's claiming a modest reduction in the principle would be fatally inflationary. He's not a serious person, and the reason why he got a gig in the Obama Administration is because Obama did shit like let a Citibank executive pick his cabinet members. The left wing of the capitalists are still capitalists.

[fwc577]

Damn! I forgot to listen to AM radio on the way home.

My mom told me she turned on AM radio on her drive home to see what they were saying. The host had the usual talking points about how terrible it was.

He then had call after call after call of people slamming him and only occasionally had a call in support of his views.

Now I need to see if I can get AM radio on my PC so I can listen to the whining, lmao.

[Slybak]

Go BIGGER!! The Dems should be super aggressive in any debt relief they can act right now. Everything is political and maybe they are saving some bullets for 2024 but being aggressive on federal debt relief is a bold policy that Dems need to pursue. Obviously I want policy, but yeah that's a pie in the sky.

Yeah but that opens up the possibility that a multi-millionaire CEO super executive's kid gets loan forgiveness for studying basket weaving so we have to add layers of bureaucratic income requirements for everybody to make sure a handful of the wrong people don't get anything.

Also I think its wrong that the public fire department puts fires out at expensive mansions and that everyone should have to fill out 5 government forms to prove that they don't have the cash to just build a new house.

[Captain N]

I surely get a kick out of seeing people on social media who post about the horrible nature of loan forgiveness and that people should pay off their student loans. Then someone doing God's work posts their small business having that person's PPP Loan forgiven.

[Breccia]

I fully expect any right-wing person or anyone who claims socialism is evil to refuse that cancellation.

I'd love to hear the names of the K-12 private schools these same right-wing people paid themselves through.

[Edge-]

One thing I'm not seeing get as much attention in the action on student debt today, which is understandable given the headline numbers and all - https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...-need-it-most/

For undergraduate loans, cut in half the amount that borrowers have to pay each month from 10% to 5% of discretionary income.

Raise the amount of income that is considered non-discretionary income and therefore is protected from repayment, guaranteeing that no borrower earning under 225% of the federal poverty level—about the annual equivalent of a $15 minimum wage for a single borrower—will have to make a monthly payment.

Forgive loan balances after 10 years of payments, instead of 20 years, for borrowers with original loan balances of $12,000 or less. The Department of Education estimates that this reform will allow nearly all community college borrowers to be debt-free within 10 years.

Cover the borrower’s unpaid monthly interest, so that unlike other existing income-driven repayment plans, no borrower’s loan balance will grow as long as they make their monthly payments—even when that monthly payment is $0 because their income is low.

So for everyone with remaining debt -

Lower monthly payments

Protections for low-income earners making $15/h and below from being obligated to make payments until their income reaches a higher level

Halves the loan forgiveness period

No additional interest as long as you make your obligated monthly payment - even if that obligated monthly payment is $0 because you make <$15/h

I know we've talked about means testing and some folks distaste for it, but these are some great policy changes that actually help everyone while having a focus on doing the most possible good for those on the lower end of the wealth scale. Their examples are good -

A typical single construction worker (making $38,000 a year) with a construction management credential would pay only $31 a month, compared to the $147 they pay now under the most recent income-driven repayment plan, for annual savings of nearly $1,400.

A typical single public school teacher with an undergraduate degree (making $44,000 a year) would pay only $56 a month on their loans, compared to the $197 they pay now under the most recent income-driven repayment plan, for annual savings of nearly $1,700.

A typical nurse (making $77,000 a year) who is married with two kids would pay only $61 a month on their undergraduate loans, compared to the $295 they pay now under the most recent income-driven repayment plan, for annual savings of more than $2,800.

This is clear, concise messaging using jobs that everyone understands showing a range of benefits for individuals and couples who will see more money in their pockets every year because of this. Also, shoutout to the gender neutral language thoughout somehow managing to get all the important personal information across without ever needing to know what their genitals are. 10/10, if there's not some conservative triggered about it on Twitter let me know and I'll slide on into their DM's.

Also -

Starting in the summer of 2023, borrowers will be able to allow the Department of Education to automatically pull their income information year after year, avoiding the hassle of needing to recertify their income annually.

I have no personal experience thankfully, but I've heard these are a massive pain in the ass. So that's some big QoL improvements.

There's honestly lots of really good shit in here, mostly targeting those struggling the most or who have been screwed by the economy or the difficulty of working through a pointlessly complex student loan system.

The agency has re-established the enforcement unit in the Office of Federal Student Aid and it is holding accreditors’ feet to the fire. In fact, the Department just withdrew authorization for the accreditor that oversaw schools responsible for some of the worst for-profit scandals. The agency will also propose a rule to hold career programs accountable for leaving their graduates with mountains of debt they cannot repay, a rule the previous Administration repealed.

Now I need to verify this even if I'm willing to largely take this administration at their word on stuff like this, but I just love the casual "In fact," tossed in there.

Man, it's like Sleepy Joe just woke the fuck up from a powernap or some shit.

(Yes I know this doesn't go as far as most, including myself, would like, but this is still a huge step forward in almost every way)

[jonnysensible]

True. I'm mostly just pointing out this isn't a fix. It's a half-assed effort that's more about being seen doing something than that something being truly meaningful.

Still way better than the GOP, yes, but people should expect better still. Especially when they could just cancel student loans wholesale, and the "harms" would be entirely felt by the rich exploiters making bank off human desperation.

here he is old jonny incrementalism moaning at incrementalism

old joes opening the door

[LilSaihah]

(Yes I know this doesn't go as far as most, including myself, would like, but this is still a huge step forward in almost every way)

Honestly I'd say it's pretty close to the mark. I'd prefer it if the interest clause was "no interest" rather than "unpaid interest", but my concerns about it are more detail-oriented than resting on the fundamentals. It's something like 85-90% of what I'd want it to be if I had a stake.

[fwc577]

Also, before I go and make myself foolish to others, the claim from conservatives right now is that everyone else has to foot the bill for the debt being cancelled. How accurate is that statement?

It's all bullshit.

Nobody can tell you exactly what / who pays for it.

It will be paid for via taxes, cuts, and borrowing.

The total cost is ~$300 billion.

if you listen to some of the smooth brain economists, they point out that there are 158 million taxpayers in 2019 and $300 billion / 158 million = $2000

But your average taxpayer isn't going to see their tax bill jump by $2000

Here are a few things our taxes pay for that cost way more than $300 billion that really don't help the average American as much as student loan forgiveness:

PPP Loan Program - $1 Trillion (Considering the huge amounts of fraud)

Defense - $768 billion (the next highest country, China, spends $252 billion per year, LOTS of waste)

Donald Trumps Corporate Tax Cut - $700 Billion (Allowed corporations to save on taxes and perform stock buybacks!)