Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[jonnysensible]

Most people in debt don't even have art degrees, it's a made up argument to admonish people trying to do better for themselves and family in an unstable economy and job market that doesn't have the same level of security our parents and grandparents did.

Let people mald that the middle class and under aren't being fucked this time. It's about gatekeeping and hording resources their ancestors earned for them. Not anything worth acknowledging. Because all those doctors, teachers, and nurses buried in miserable hours and lower wages than 10yrs ago are totally baristas with rainbow hair. Just dumb.

its all nixons fault really.

Pretty sure Business degrees are the most subscribed too in the US. Which always makes me smile when some tory talks about Uni being a left wing bastion.

[Flarelaine]

It took me like 10 minutes when I was a braindead teenager to research what degrees would pay well versus what I was I was interested in versus things that really shouldn't be majors because they're not worth the investment. Also, it was a running joke with my friends and I that we'd only get accepted to liberal arts programs and be poor, so anyone that thought "oh, just going to college in any way shape or form makes you successful!" is definitely an idiot to me.

I knew a guy who majored in Latin and ran an IT firm. When asked how it all added up, he said: "University is not for getting a job, it's for putting grooves in your brain."

[Kathandira]

Most people in debt don't even have art degrees

I'm aware, but since it is one of the most common targets for this discussions, I wanted to point out the flaw isn't on the students with art degrees. Rather the system that doesn't set them up for success.

[fwc577]

So, I've been keeping an eye out on discussions about how a lawsuit to block this EO by SCOTUS might play out. So far, it looks like an uphill battle for the following reasons.

1- Not many people have standing to sue and prove harm.

The people best to have standing for a lawsuit are loan servicers who could argue that loan forgiveness will result in lower profits since they're paid a portion of money collected. But does a loan servicer want to risk contract problems in the future?

Outside of loan servicers, regular people and even Congress don't have much grounds to sue because they're not actually harmed by this. However, depending on the partisan judge where the lawsuit is brought up, this might not matter.

2- A Republican effort to block this EO could end up being a poison pill.

Despite all the cries from the Republicans right now how unfair this is to the working class, there is a big elephant in the room. This isn't targeted at Democrats. There are plenty of Republicans who will be eligible for $10k - $20k in student loan debt relief. A Republican effort to block this EO could result in some Republicans left with a sour taste in their mouth come midterms in November.

3- This will piss of Democrats even more.

Again, we're approaching midterms and this will help galvanized Democrats even further, if Republicans can get SCOTUS to block this.





Whatever happens, happens at this point.

The fact we haven't seen a lawsuit creep up yet does give me some hope that this will end up going through.

[Breccia]

Secret Service gets another $286 million back from COVID scams, raising the total to $1.4 billion.

[Edge-]

Secret Service gets another $286 million back from COVID scams, raising the total to $1.4 billion.

Eyyy, the USSS doing their original mission, IIRC! You don't hear so much about these kinds of USSS actions, but it's nice they're still going after folks stealing US taxpayer dollars.

[AntiFascistVoter]

*me does Nelson Laugh*

Cosplay LEftists grifters also dragged in the PPP info dump. What a Friday.





Honestly, he should be paying $20k in penalties to the estate of John Rawls.

[D3thray]

Eyyy, the USSS doing their original mission, IIRC! You don't hear so much about these kinds of USSS actions, but it's nice they're still going after folks stealing US taxpayer dollars.

Bravo! Can’t help but feel like it’s a drop in the bucket though.

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Most people in debt don't even have art degrees, it's a made up argument to admonish people trying to do better for themselves and family in an unstable economy and job market that doesn't have the same level of security our parents and grandparents did.

Let people mald that the middle class and under aren't being fucked this time. It's about gatekeeping and hording resources their ancestors earned for them. Not anything worth acknowledging. Because all those doctors, teachers, and nurses buried in miserable hours and lower wages than 10yrs ago are totally baristas with rainbow hair. Just dumb.

Because people making $125,000 a year need $10,000? They make that in a month. Forget the red herring arguments about art degrees or ppp loans (i.e. please-don’t-fire-your-employees-even-though-you’re-in-the-red-because-we-forced-you-to-shut-down loans), the logistics of this as presented are just dumb. Timing is pretty terrible too unless say, you’re trying to bribe your voters to come out ahead of a midterm election that doesn’t look great for you…

If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes of a lot of the posters on this forum, I might be more inclined to go along with it even if it is just a massive one time band-aid that doesn’t address past or future borrowers. As is, right now it’s displaying an incredible lack of foresight beyond 2 months into the future.

[Rozz]

Bravo! Can’t help but feel like it’s a drop in the bucket though.

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Because people making $125,000 a year need $10,000? They make that in a month. Forget the red herring arguments about art degrees or ppp loans (i.e. please-don’t-fire-your-employees-even-though-you’re-in-the-red-because-we-forced-you-to-shut-down loans), the logistics of this as presented are just dumb. Timing is pretty terrible too unless say, you’re trying to bribe your voters to come out ahead of a midterm election that doesn’t look great for you…

If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes of a lot of the posters on this forum, I might be more inclined to go along with it even if it is just a massive one time band-aid that doesn’t address past or future borrowers. As is, right now it’s displaying an incredible lack of foresight beyond 2 months into the future.

Because most Americans don't make 6 figures and many people with ideal degrees don't get jobs that pay that much. If you want or need a masters or PhD for your job, unless you're already employed and your company pays for it for you-- you're going to end up with debt higher than or even double or triple than the salary you listed. There are people with 'cushy jobs' who are still paying off debt.


And if you have a mortgage, car payments, and other types of loan payments on top of regular bills and necessities. Or a family. Yes, even 5k wiped off helps considerably for your immediate expenses when things have been very tight these last 3 years for many Americans.

The point is that this is clearly a bandaid that is hopefully the first step in addressing the issues with the cost of American Higher Education and addressing what types of loans it makes sense to expose teenagers or poorly informed families to. Atm it benefits the poor the most, but honestly if you have so much money your student loans don't concern you a bit--- but you're against this process because it doesn't benefit you (the wealthy) as much as it does the poor or less fortunate--- that's just a personal problem.

I have only seen economic concerns as the more legitimate of arguments, but I take them with a grain of salt because economics is at its strongest when evaluating current or past trends. Not the future. Might as well shake an 8 ball with educated guesses.

[Breccia]

If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes

This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.

[D3thray]

This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.

No denials there at all (although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result), there were two big stimulus bills under Trump, one under Biden, as well as continued quantitative easing by the Fed.

I don’t think an implementation of student debt forgiveness is a bad idea. I think this implementation (by EO no less) is a bad idea and terrible timing.

[Rozz]

No denials there at all (although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result), there were two big stimulus bills under Trump, one under Biden, as well as continued quantitative easing by the Fed.

I don’t think an implementation of student debt forgiveness is a bad idea. I think this implementation (by EO no less) is a bad idea and terrible timing.

I think the parts most people ignored--- changing how and when payments are done and the new limits/ rates--are the most interesting tests for the future.

[Breccia]

(although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result)

The damage to your car is lessened if you slam on the brakes before hitting the brick wall.

[Blur4stuff]

In two months the last thing most voters will be thinking about is loan forgiveness. I'd be shocked if they even remember it happening a few weeks from now.

[D3thray]

The damage to your car is lessened if you slam on the brakes before hitting the brick wall.

Which might be an appropriate analogy until you remember New York and California exist. Promise you, unless we pulled China level lock-downs (which are still on-going in places) there was no stopping this. Literally nobody leaves their house anywhere for any reason. Trump didn’t do that because the president doesn’t have the power to do that and nor would Americans historically want the president to have that power.

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I think the parts most people ignored--- changing how and when payments are done and the new limits/ rates--are the most interesting tests for the future.

I say just wipe out the interest for starters. Maybe lenders get a 1-time up front fee?

[AntiFascistVoter]

Sorry, but it wasn't an Executive Order. The family trust might want a refund for expensive degrees that did not include reading comprehension.



I would never think how to make Joe Biden look this cool in forever, and Ben Shapiro just... tweeted it out.


Title: Diamond Joe Makin' it Rain

I don't know if people had actual concern for art students, or were using unimaginative clichés.
But if you know of anyone was scammed by the Art Institute, they most likely eligible for complete forgiveness. Thanks to action by the Administration against predatory schools like ITT, DeVry, etc.



Even if a school isn't on the list. Anyone can present their case for borrower defense..

[Edge-]

Title: Diamond Joe Makin' it Rain

Yo, conservative influencers make better graphics for Democrats than even Democrats make for Democrats.

[Glorious Leader]

This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.

This is actually a really shitty take. It ignores the real cause of inflation and instead dumps the burden on the public. It does not absolutely follow that public spending must result in inflation.

[fwc577]

Even if a school isn't on the list. Anyone can present their case for borrower defense..

Sadly, it's only for federal loans though. There needs to be a serious push to prosecute and jail for-profit educators who prioritize profits and in exchange, offer sub-par and poor education.

[Ripster42]

$10k is nothing. If you're underwater on your loans, it isn't going to save you. It's the equivalent of tossing someone in a 30 foot deep pit a 5 foot length of rope. Yes, that's closer to enough rope to get them out of the hole, but it isn't enough on its own.

It's not just 10k. It's 10k unless you have a pell grant and then it's 20k. It's also freezing the loan size so the balance doesn't accrue as long as you pay 5% (previously 10% before this executive action) of your discretionary income (while increasing what's considered discretionary income by 50%, from 1.5x poverty line to 2.25x poverty line) towards the debt. It also expanded the amount of institutions that qualify for acceptable employment for total debt forgiveness after 10 years of payments. They're also expanding the criteria for people who will qualify for loans that go away after 20 years of payments, regardless of employment. It also orders the DoEducation to simplify that process.

True. I'm mostly just pointing out this isn't a fix. It's a half-assed effort that's more about being seen doing something than that something being truly meaningful.

Still way better than the GOP, yes, but people should expect better still. Especially when they could just cancel student loans wholesale, and the "harms" would be entirely felt by the rich exploiters making bank off human desperation.

Man, sure would be nice if you did what you say other people should do and actually did 5 minutes of research before making these types of comments. He essentially gave everyone with a federal loan a way out of debt after 20 years, at most, where before, many people had no way out. He expanded the pool of borrowers who'd be out from under the debts in 10 years. He cancelled 30% of all federal borrowers' loans. He reduced the burden of the monthly payments on those loans on all families that took them. You claim to be an incrementalist, but you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be downplaying and lamenting that accomplishment. You'd be celebrating it and asking, "What's next?"

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Sadly, it's only for federal loans though. There needs to be a serious push to prosecute and jail for-profit educators who prioritize profits and in exchange, offer sub-par and poor education.

Sadly, the president doesn't have the authority to do anything about private loans without action from congress.