Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[uuuhname]

I understand libs are desperate to downplay Hunter Biden's behavior.... but you really don't have to. I hope one day we all realize we can treat obviously corrupt and wildly incompetent nepotism cases like the obviously corrupt and incompetent cases of nepotism that they are.

[Endus]

The PRess wonders outloud "why is Biden tanking?, when we frame everything he does negatively."

Is there a factual problem with the story? He's working through his illness, which is modelling pretty toxic workplace expectations. Giving Biden a pass on things (even if this is pretty generically "a problem with American culture in general" rather than a personal failure) just because he's on "your side" is exactly the dishonest kind of gatekeeping Republicans do all the time, which we slam them for.

Presuming we're talking about actual shit, not the "man with a known stutter trips over a word and immediately corrects himself" bullshit.

[Edge-]

I understand libs are desperate to downplay Hunter Biden's behavior.... but you really don't have to. I hope one day we all realize we can treat obviously corrupt and wildly incompetent nepotism cases like the obviously corrupt and incompetent cases of nepotism that they are.

Wait, Joe gave Hunter a job in the White House?

[uuuhname]

okay Edge, put those partisan blinders on because it's apparently too difficult to reconcile with the fact Hunter has no business being in politics, and it's obvious his name gets him access to things he otherwise clearly cannot be trusted with.

[Endus]

Wait, Joe gave Hunter a job in the White House?

Yeah, let's not conflate "networking with family connections" and "nepotism". That's malarkey.

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okay Edge, put those partisan blinders on because it's apparently too difficult to reconcile with the fact Hunter has no business being in politics, and it's obvious his name gets him access to things he otherwise clearly cannot be trusted with.

What political position does Hunter currently hold, or has ever held? The closest I can find on his Wikipedia page is his stint on the board with Amtrak, to which he was appointed by George W. Bush, and he retired from that position shortly after Biden became VP. And that was basically working as a lobbyist, not a politician.

[Edge-]

okay Edge, put those partisan blinders on because it's apparently too difficult to reconcile with the fact Hunter has no business being in politics, and it's obvious his name gets him access to things he otherwise clearly cannot be trusted with.

I...didn't say anything of the sort. I simply pointed out that there was no nepotism. Hunter Biden getting jobs off his last name and father's position isn't nepotism, that's simply benefitting from being a member of a famous/powerful/influential family. Shit happens all over.

What political job does Hunter Biden have in the White House? Or in general? Did Joe get him that job?

We can quibble over Hunter's substance abuse issues, his apparent tax issues etc. and those are all fair game, Hunter seems like he's a damned mess. But at the same time, he largely seems to be keeping his mess to himself and not, for the sake of comparison, closely aligning himself with his father publicly and frequently as Trump did with his adult children.

[Milchshake]

Is there a factual problem with the story? He's working through his illness, which is modelling pretty toxic workplace expectations. Giving Biden a pass on things (even if this is pretty generically "a problem with American culture in general" rather than a personal failure) just because he's on "your side" is exactly the dishonest kind of gatekeeping Republicans do all the time, which we slam them for.

Presuming we're talking about actual shit, not the "man with a known stutter trips over a word and immediately corrects himself" bullshit.

Are you even talking about actual shit?

You might be overstating "work" here. I know online-gamer-socialists think all work is some neolibral construct.
But working from home by making a few calls. Reading and signing some docs ... is fine.

I think cosplay socialism is making a huge mistake by staking to much of position on/r/Antiwork.

[Endus]

Are you even talking about actual shit?

You might be overstating "work" here. I know online-gamer-socialists think all work is some neolibral construct.
But working from home by making a few calls. Reading and signing some docs ... is fine.

I think cosplay socialism is making a huge mistake by staking to much of position on/r/Antiwork.

You're kneejerking.

The argument is predicated on putting your work ahead of your health, which is a toxic demand/expectation. It's a product of capitalist systems which fundamentally do not value workers other than for their productive capacity. It has nothing do to with "neoliberalism", other than neoliberalism's support for capitalist systems (which it is by no means unique in), and it is in no way a position opposed to the concept of "work" in general, which socialists in general do not have any opposition to.

Maybe take people on the actual arguments they actually make rather than leaping to random conclusions based on the assumptions you want to leap to?

Particularly the "cosplay socialist" garbage. That particular accusation usually gets levelled at me when I'm too consistently socialist for people. Which, like, is the opposite of "cosplaying" as a socialist. Sue me for actually believing in the ideological frameworks of Canadian heroes like Tommy Douglas. Socialism isn't some weirdo concept outside the USA, dude.

[Edge-]

The argument is predicated on putting your work ahead of your health, which is a toxic demand/expectation.

Unless his symptoms are mild enough that he can continue working without issue. It's not like he has a fairly important job or anything. I mean, I get that he's got a whole branch of the government that can continue working while he's out and all, but absent any evidence that he's forcing himself to work while very sick and risking further problems, the whole thing is pretty pearl clutch-y to me. I don't often agree with Milchshake's hot-takes, but it does have some big /r/antiwork vibes to it.

Going through the article itself - The author assumes that because he's working through his mild symptoms that he's getting insufficient rest and increasing his risk of long-covid, something which they argue without evidence.

Images of Biden making some phone calls showing he's still doing well and remains at work are hardly proof that he's got exhaustive days of heavy activity.

Instead of taking time off during the course of his disease, he modeled the toxic work culture of “pushing through illness.”

Because not all illnesses are the same. Not all jobs are the same. This is absolutely deadbrained thinking. This also presumes that Biden isn't surrounded by doctors and receiving world-class medical care ensuring that he can safely work through his mild symptoms without increasing his risk of worsening his current infection or risking long-covid. Comparing the care Biden is receiving to the care your average American is receiving is similarly fairly silly.

He had canceled events and did most work via phone/video conference, and the White House confirmed that while he would be working he was also going to be resting during the initial 5 days he was exposed.

So again, lots of pearl-clutchy garbage from an op-ed piece.

[Endus]

So again, lots of pearl-clutchy garbage from an op-ed piece.

I mean, generally, yeah, it's mostly using Biden as an excuse to talk about the broader issue, if it's spending too much of its time trying to blame Biden for his choices rather than just using it as a specific example of a broader trend they want to discuss, that's pushing things too far and laying way too much on Biden himself.

My greater issue was the implication that stories like this are "bad" because they make Biden look "bad" and we shouldn't ever push a story that might frame Biden's choices as anything less than perfect in every way, the "The PRess wonders outloud "why is Biden tanking?, when we frame everything he does negatively."" comment more than the article itself.

[Edge-]

I mean, generally, yeah, it's mostly using Biden as an excuse to talk about the broader issue, if it's spending too much of its time trying to blame Biden for his choices rather than just using it as a specific example of a broader trend they want to discuss, that's pushing things too far and laying way too much on Biden himself.

My greater issue was the implication that stories like this are "bad" because they make Biden look "bad" and we shouldn't ever push a story that might frame Biden's choices as anything less than perfect in every way, the "The PRess wonders outloud "why is Biden tanking?, when we frame everything he does negatively."" comment more than the article itself.

Sure, but the point we're making is that using Biden as the foundation for such a piece is...pointless given that there's zero evidence or indication that he's actually engaged in that kind of behavior.

Instead, the point we're making is that the op-ed is bad because of the foundation it's built on - that Biden is somehow an example of the toxic protestant-work ethic and risking long-covid when he should be setting an example.

This isn't a guy who, while still symptomatic, is forcing USSS agents to don full scrubs and get inside a car he's plague-boxing so he can do a lap around the medical center to prove he's not dead yet. This isn't walking in public and immediately taking his mask off while apparently gasping for breath. This isn't managers telling staff who call off because they're sick and may have covid that they need to find coverage or force themselves to come in and infect others. This isn't a company forcing workers back into the office full-time without any rules or guidance regarding masking or vaccines or folks with symptoms staying home to isolate, despite the company operating just fine remotely for the past few years.

It's using Biden as the topic because that gets views, because everything has to be centered around the POTUS - who increasingly is framed as some near-autocrat with far more power, control, responsibility and influence than the office actually holds. It's more bad-faith for-profit media bullshit because for-profit media companies have entered the necessary stage of development where they require divisive bullshit like this to maintain their click-rates and advertising bottom lines. Because for-profit media necessarily must engage in these practices to continue to remain competitive, profitable, and most importantly, growing. We've seen it before in the days of Hearst, and with many regulations on news coverage rolled back and the current "forever-growth" stock market/economy, companies need to do this kind of clickbaity, bad-faith shit.

There's plenty to be super critical of Biden on. This though, ain't fuckin it.

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In other news, do you know what's been one nice thing about the federal response to the flooding in Kentucky that's killed at least a dozen (it was 16 last I checked) people?

The lack of petty bullshit. No threats about withholding aid because someone there said mean things about Biden one time. No games or teases or anything. Just, "You have a disaster and need help? We're here."

The returns to normalcy remain nice, even if they're often underappreciated by media because normalcy doesn't drive clicks.

[uuuhname]

We can quibble over Hunter's substance abuse issues, his apparent tax issues etc. and those are all fair game, Hunter seems like he's a damned mess. But at the same time, he largely seems to be keeping his mess to himself and not, for the sake of comparison, closely aligning himself with his father publicly and frequently as Trump did with his adult children.

notice how I didn't invoke the Trumps, at all. but of course the "what about~" arguments get pulled out anyway.... yeah NO SHIT the Trump's are several magnitudes worse. IDK how that's supposed to wipe away how Hunter gets all of these drug rehab visits while his dad championed legislation that ballooned the prison population and put entire generations of black and brown people in jail for selling weed.


sorry, my ability to sympathize with these people is simply non-existent.

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Particularly the "cosplay socialist" garbage. That particular accusation usually gets levelled at me when I'm too consistently socialist for people. Which, like, is the opposite of "cosplaying" as a socialist. Sue me for actually believing in the ideological frameworks of Canadian heroes like Tommy Douglas. Socialism isn't some weirdo concept outside the USA, dude.

of course you're a LARPER to them, wanting things that keep you alive like health care is like demanding a pony to them. oh you don't want your grandma to die from a totally treatable illness that will none the less cost thousands of dollars? fuck off, you should have voted harder for Hillary in 2016 if you REALLY loved your grandma.

[Edge-]

notice how I didn't invoke the Trumps, at all. but of course the "what about~" arguments get pulled out anyway....

Because it's a relevant comparison to what you're actually complaining about, since your complaints about Hunter Biden are based off a faulty premise. He is not the beneficiary of nepotism as you claim, he does not have a White House job as Trump gave some of his children/children-in-laws, nor is he closely aligned with his fathers political campaign/aspirations.

how Hunter gets all of these drug rehab visits while his dad championed legislation that ballooned the prison population and put entire generations of black and brown people in jail for selling weed.

That's a criticism of Joe, not Hunter. You're getting your targets mixed up. If we want to have a discussion on Bidens terrible history regarding drug use/treatment/criminalization, go for it. But that's not what your post was getting at.

sorry, my ability to sympathize with these people is simply non-existent.

Nobody is asking you to sympathize with anyone. I'm just pointing out that you're complaining about something that's not real.

[Endus]

notice how I didn't invoke the Trumps, at all. but of course the "what about~" arguments get pulled out anyway.... yeah NO SHIT the Trump's are several magnitudes worse. IDK how that's supposed to wipe away how Hunter gets all of these drug rehab visits while his dad championed legislation that ballooned the prison population and put entire generations of black and brown people in jail for selling weed.


sorry, my ability to sympathize with these people is simply non-existent.

Nobody here's saying Hunter Biden is a man without problems. We're pointing out he's politically irrelevant unless you're pushing a malicious agenda, and despite the accusations of "nepotism" there is essentially zero evidence of any such thing. The only evidence there is points to family connections and networking, and that's just how things actually work in the real world, in every industry. It doesn't mean Hunter wasn't qualified for the positions he held.

[uuuhname]

Nobody is asking you to sympathize with anyone. I'm just pointing out that you're complaining about something that's not real.

to you, it's not real, TO YOU. pointing out how Hunter keeps getting jobs he's not qualified for based on his name and connections is not a faulty premise, it's just facts you are cannot reasonably justify without making it about someone else. hence: talking about the Trump kids.

[Shadowferal]

I see a lot of nothing...

[uuuhname]

also yes the fact that Hunter gets this battery of drug rehab visits while hid dad threw thousands of people in jail for far lesser crimes does deserve to be pointed out every time the subject comes up, not apologizing for that.

[DarkTZeratul]

to you, it's not real, TO YOU. pointing out how Hunter keeps getting jobs he's not qualified for based on his name and connections is not a faulty premise, it's just facts you are cannot reasonably justify without making it about someone else. hence: talking about the Trump kids.

Unless Joe Biden is giving him those jobs (and he's not), it is absolutely a faulty premise.

[Edge-]

to you, it's not real, TO YOU.

No, in reality. You complain of nepotism that doesn't exist because apparently you don't understand the meaning of the word.

pointing out how Hunter keeps getting jobs he's not qualified for based on his name and connections is not a faulty premise

Correct, that's a valid criticism of Hunter Biden, and has nothing to do with nepotism. As stated, the family members of wealthy, powerful, or influential families often get tons of shit for free or that they haven't earned, purely off their family name. That, again, is not nepotism.

hence: talking about the Trump kids.

No, because that's the behavior you claimed was happening and complained about. I'm happy to not bring them up again if that is so bothersome to you.

You have yet to establish that any aspect of your complaints as they're related to Joe Biden actually exist. The worst charge you've levied at him so far, and there's merit to this as it's been discussed at length since the campaign, is his historical position on drugs and how he handled his own child's battles with substance abuse. A topic which, thankfully, he seems to have "evolved" on, alongside many other topics where he had absolute dogshit positions historically.

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also yes the fact that Hunter gets this battery of drug rehab visits while hid dad threw thousands of people in jail for far lesser crimes does deserve to be pointed out every time the subject comes up, not apologizing for that.

Joe Biden was a judge/prosecutor? Or policies his father supported, and championed, had that negative impact. No less hypocritical for 'ol Joe, but again you're grossly blowing everything out of proportion and seemingly not understanding how government works.

[Endus]

to you, it's not real, TO YOU. pointing out how Hunter keeps getting jobs he's not qualified for based on his name and connections is not a faulty premise, it's just facts you are cannot reasonably justify without making it about someone else. hence: talking about the Trump kids.

Most of those jobs he was qualified for. Maybe it was odd that he was originally hired by MBNA, but his rise to a VP there was under his own merit. That job qualified him for his work as a consultant with the US Dept of Commerce, and that led to him becoming a lobbyist, and then being appointed to Amtrak's board by George W. Bush. From there, he helped start a hedge fund, an investment firm, and a venture capital firm, and got a job with a law firm. That all led into his work in China and eventually Ukraine.

Every step qualified him for the next change in career. I don't know where the hell you're getting this "not qualified" nonsense.

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also yes the fact that Hunter gets this battery of drug rehab visits while hid dad threw thousands of people in jail for far lesser crimes does deserve to be pointed out every time the subject comes up, not apologizing for that.

That's not an issue with Hunter Biden, that's an issue with Joe Biden, and Joe's record on crime is . . . really fucking awful. His support of the crime bill in the '90s was heinous and led to a lot of the modern problems with police abusive conduct.