1. #15081
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    People my age didn't really have the ability to look that stuff up. If you graduated before the year 2000, the internet wasn't what it is today. There are folks my age who graduated in the 90's that are still paying off loans, and not making enough money to get them cleared up.

    Step out of your anecdotal experience, and start putting yourself in the shoes of those who may not have had the foresight or access to investigate degrees and their potential return on investment. Not even just due to the way of the times like those in my age group, but even folks today.

    On a slightly different side of the topic. You know what is messed up about Art degrees? They do not require any sort of business management courses. Yeah, there are a lot of opportunities to work for a company as an artist, but a surprising amount of artists are independent business owners. This is a recipe for failed artists who don't have a business focused mindset. How to market their work, how to navigate social media for marketing, how to get it into shows, how to manage the finances, how to use the technology needed to market themselves, and more. Basically, you end up with people who can create fantastic work, with no idea how to profit from it, and how to make it a sustainable career.
    Most people in debt don't even have art degrees, it's a made up argument to admonish people trying to do better for themselves and family in an unstable economy and job market that doesn't have the same level of security our parents and grandparents did.

    Let people mald that the middle class and under aren't being fucked this time. It's about gatekeeping and hording resources their ancestors earned for them. Not anything worth acknowledging. Because all those doctors, teachers, and nurses buried in miserable hours and lower wages than 10yrs ago are totally baristas with rainbow hair. Just dumb.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2022-08-26 at 05:09 AM.
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  2. #15082
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Most people in debt don't even have art degrees, it's a made up argument to admonish people trying to do better for themselves and family in an unstable economy and job market that doesn't have the same level of security our parents and grandparents did.

    Let people mald that the middle class and under aren't being fucked this time. It's about gatekeeping and hording resources their ancestors earned for them. Not anything worth acknowledging. Because all those doctors, teachers, and nurses buried in miserable hours and lower wages than 10yrs ago are totally baristas with rainbow hair. Just dumb.



    its all nixons fault really.

    Pretty sure Business degrees are the most subscribed too in the US. Which always makes me smile when some tory talks about Uni being a left wing bastion.

  3. #15083
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    It took me like 10 minutes when I was a braindead teenager to research what degrees would pay well versus what I was I was interested in versus things that really shouldn't be majors because they're not worth the investment. Also, it was a running joke with my friends and I that we'd only get accepted to liberal arts programs and be poor, so anyone that thought "oh, just going to college in any way shape or form makes you successful!" is definitely an idiot to me.
    I knew a guy who majored in Latin and ran an IT firm. When asked how it all added up, he said: "University is not for getting a job, it's for putting grooves in your brain."

  4. #15084
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Most people in debt don't even have art degrees
    I'm aware, but since it is one of the most common targets for this discussions, I wanted to point out the flaw isn't on the students with art degrees. Rather the system that doesn't set them up for success.
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  5. #15085
    So, I've been keeping an eye out on discussions about how a lawsuit to block this EO by SCOTUS might play out. So far, it looks like an uphill battle for the following reasons.

    1- Not many people have standing to sue and prove harm.

    The people best to have standing for a lawsuit are loan servicers who could argue that loan forgiveness will result in lower profits since they're paid a portion of money collected. But does a loan servicer want to risk contract problems in the future?

    Outside of loan servicers, regular people and even Congress don't have much grounds to sue because they're not actually harmed by this. However, depending on the partisan judge where the lawsuit is brought up, this might not matter.

    2- A Republican effort to block this EO could end up being a poison pill.

    Despite all the cries from the Republicans right now how unfair this is to the working class, there is a big elephant in the room. This isn't targeted at Democrats. There are plenty of Republicans who will be eligible for $10k - $20k in student loan debt relief. A Republican effort to block this EO could result in some Republicans left with a sour taste in their mouth come midterms in November.

    3- This will piss of Democrats even more.

    Again, we're approaching midterms and this will help galvanized Democrats even further, if Republicans can get SCOTUS to block this.





    Whatever happens, happens at this point.

    The fact we haven't seen a lawsuit creep up yet does give me some hope that this will end up going through.

  6. #15086

  7. #15087
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Eyyy, the USSS doing their original mission, IIRC! You don't hear so much about these kinds of USSS actions, but it's nice they're still going after folks stealing US taxpayer dollars.

  8. #15088
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    *me does Nelson Laugh*

    Cosplay LEftists grifters also dragged in the PPP info dump. What a Friday.





    Honestly, he should be paying $20k in penalties to the estate of John Rawls.
    Welcome to MMO-C. One you realize that the median poster is a Johnny Depp fanboi that consume 8 hours of youtube a day. You realize it's hopeless.

  9. #15089
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Eyyy, the USSS doing their original mission, IIRC! You don't hear so much about these kinds of USSS actions, but it's nice they're still going after folks stealing US taxpayer dollars.
    Bravo! Can’t help but feel like it’s a drop in the bucket though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Most people in debt don't even have art degrees, it's a made up argument to admonish people trying to do better for themselves and family in an unstable economy and job market that doesn't have the same level of security our parents and grandparents did.

    Let people mald that the middle class and under aren't being fucked this time. It's about gatekeeping and hording resources their ancestors earned for them. Not anything worth acknowledging. Because all those doctors, teachers, and nurses buried in miserable hours and lower wages than 10yrs ago are totally baristas with rainbow hair. Just dumb.
    Because people making $125,000 a year need $10,000? They make that in a month. Forget the red herring arguments about art degrees or ppp loans (i.e. please-don’t-fire-your-employees-even-though-you’re-in-the-red-because-we-forced-you-to-shut-down loans), the logistics of this as presented are just dumb. Timing is pretty terrible too unless say, you’re trying to bribe your voters to come out ahead of a midterm election that doesn’t look great for you…

    If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes of a lot of the posters on this forum, I might be more inclined to go along with it even if it is just a massive one time band-aid that doesn’t address past or future borrowers. As is, right now it’s displaying an incredible lack of foresight beyond 2 months into the future.

  10. #15090
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    Bravo! Can’t help but feel like it’s a drop in the bucket though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because people making $125,000 a year need $10,000? They make that in a month. Forget the red herring arguments about art degrees or ppp loans (i.e. please-don’t-fire-your-employees-even-though-you’re-in-the-red-because-we-forced-you-to-shut-down loans), the logistics of this as presented are just dumb. Timing is pretty terrible too unless say, you’re trying to bribe your voters to come out ahead of a midterm election that doesn’t look great for you…

    If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes of a lot of the posters on this forum, I might be more inclined to go along with it even if it is just a massive one time band-aid that doesn’t address past or future borrowers. As is, right now it’s displaying an incredible lack of foresight beyond 2 months into the future.
    Because most Americans don't make 6 figures and many people with ideal degrees don't get jobs that pay that much. If you want or need a masters or PhD for your job, unless you're already employed and your company pays for it for you-- you're going to end up with debt higher than or even double or triple than the salary you listed. There are people with 'cushy jobs' who are still paying off debt.


    And if you have a mortgage, car payments, and other types of loan payments on top of regular bills and necessities. Or a family. Yes, even 5k wiped off helps considerably for your immediate expenses when things have been very tight these last 3 years for many Americans.

    The point is that this is clearly a bandaid that is hopefully the first step in addressing the issues with the cost of American Higher Education and addressing what types of loans it makes sense to expose teenagers or poorly informed families to. Atm it benefits the poor the most, but honestly if you have so much money your student loans don't concern you a bit--- but you're against this process because it doesn't benefit you (the wealthy) as much as it does the poor or less fortunate--- that's just a personal problem.

    I have only seen economic concerns as the more legitimate of arguments, but I take them with a grain of salt because economics is at its strongest when evaluating current or past trends. Not the future. Might as well shake an 8 ball with educated guesses.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2022-08-26 at 06:46 PM.
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  11. #15091
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    If we weren’t just coming off the back of record high public spending the past few years contributing to inflation levels not seen in the lifetimes
    This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

    Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.

  12. #15092
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

    Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.
    No denials there at all (although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result), there were two big stimulus bills under Trump, one under Biden, as well as continued quantitative easing by the Fed.

    I don’t think an implementation of student debt forgiveness is a bad idea. I think this implementation (by EO no less) is a bad idea and terrible timing.

  13. #15093
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    No denials there at all (although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result), there were two big stimulus bills under Trump, one under Biden, as well as continued quantitative easing by the Fed.

    I don’t think an implementation of student debt forgiveness is a bad idea. I think this implementation (by EO no less) is a bad idea and terrible timing.
    I think the parts most people ignored--- changing how and when payments are done and the new limits/ rates--are the most interesting tests for the future.
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  14. #15094
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    (although I’m not sure I see your reasoning about how Trump’s handling specifically necessitated increased public spending as a result)
    The damage to your car is lessened if you slam on the brakes before hitting the brick wall.

  15. #15095
    In two months the last thing most voters will be thinking about is loan forgiveness. I'd be shocked if they even remember it happening a few weeks from now.

  16. #15096
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The damage to your car is lessened if you slam on the brakes before hitting the brick wall.
    Which might be an appropriate analogy until you remember New York and California exist. Promise you, unless we pulled China level lock-downs (which are still on-going in places) there was no stopping this. Literally nobody leaves their house anywhere for any reason. Trump didn’t do that because the president doesn’t have the power to do that and nor would Americans historically want the president to have that power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    I think the parts most people ignored--- changing how and when payments are done and the new limits/ rates--are the most interesting tests for the future.
    I say just wipe out the interest for starters. Maybe lenders get a 1-time up front fee?

  17. #15097
    Over 9000! Milchshake's Avatar
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    Sorry, but it wasn't an Executive Order. The family trust might want a refund for expensive degrees that did not include reading comprehension.



    I would never think how to make Joe Biden look this cool in forever, and Ben Shapiro just... tweeted it out.


    Title: Diamond Joe Makin' it Rain

    I don't know if people had actual concern for art students, or were using unimaginative clichés.
    But if you know of anyone was scammed by the Art Institute, they most likely eligible for complete forgiveness. Thanks to action by the Administration against predatory schools like ITT, DeVry, etc.



    Even if a school isn't on the list. Anyone can present their case for borrower defense..
    Last edited by Milchshake; 2022-08-26 at 08:31 PM.
    Welcome to MMO-C. One you realize that the median poster is a Johnny Depp fanboi that consume 8 hours of youtube a day. You realize it's hopeless.

  18. #15098
    Quote Originally Posted by Midterm Voter View Post

    Title: Diamond Joe Makin' it Rain
    Yo, conservative influencers make better graphics for Democrats than even Democrats make for Democrats.

  19. #15099
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This is 100% worth mentioning. The inflation is due to public spending, and the public spending is due to COVID, and Trump completely dropped the ball on handling it.

    Hopefully, most reasonable people see that.
    This is actually a really shitty take. It ignores the real cause of inflation and instead dumps the burden on the public. It does not absolutely follow that public spending must result in inflation.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #15100
    Quote Originally Posted by Midterm Voter View Post



    Even if a school isn't on the list. Anyone can present their case for borrower defense..
    Sadly, it's only for federal loans though. There needs to be a serious push to prosecute and jail for-profit educators who prioritize profits and in exchange, offer sub-par and poor education.

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