1. #15101
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    $10k is nothing. If you're underwater on your loans, it isn't going to save you. It's the equivalent of tossing someone in a 30 foot deep pit a 5 foot length of rope. Yes, that's closer to enough rope to get them out of the hole, but it isn't enough on its own.
    It's not just 10k. It's 10k unless you have a pell grant and then it's 20k. It's also freezing the loan size so the balance doesn't accrue as long as you pay 5% (previously 10% before this executive action) of your discretionary income (while increasing what's considered discretionary income by 50%, from 1.5x poverty line to 2.25x poverty line) towards the debt. It also expanded the amount of institutions that qualify for acceptable employment for total debt forgiveness after 10 years of payments. They're also expanding the criteria for people who will qualify for loans that go away after 20 years of payments, regardless of employment. It also orders the DoEducation to simplify that process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    True. I'm mostly just pointing out this isn't a fix. It's a half-assed effort that's more about being seen doing something than that something being truly meaningful.

    Still way better than the GOP, yes, but people should expect better still. Especially when they could just cancel student loans wholesale, and the "harms" would be entirely felt by the rich exploiters making bank off human desperation.
    Man, sure would be nice if you did what you say other people should do and actually did 5 minutes of research before making these types of comments. He essentially gave everyone with a federal loan a way out of debt after 20 years, at most, where before, many people had no way out. He expanded the pool of borrowers who'd be out from under the debts in 10 years. He cancelled 30% of all federal borrowers' loans. He reduced the burden of the monthly payments on those loans on all families that took them. You claim to be an incrementalist, but you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be downplaying and lamenting that accomplishment. You'd be celebrating it and asking, "What's next?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Sadly, it's only for federal loans though. There needs to be a serious push to prosecute and jail for-profit educators who prioritize profits and in exchange, offer sub-par and poor education.
    Sadly, the president doesn't have the authority to do anything about private loans without action from congress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  2. #15102
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Man, sure would be nice if you did what you say other people should do and actually did 5 minutes of research before making these types of comments. He essentially gave everyone with a federal loan a way out of debt after 20 years, at most, where before, many people had no way out. He expanded the pool of borrowers who'd be out from under the debts in 10 years. He cancelled 30% of all federal borrowers' loans. He reduced the burden of the monthly payments on those loans on all families that took them. You claim to be an incrementalist, but you're not. If you were, you wouldn't be downplaying and lamenting that accomplishment. You'd be celebrating it and asking, "What's next?"
    It's like dealing with floodwaters, and bragging that you've lowered the levels from neck deep to chest deep. Sure, it's better that they're going down, but the problem's still significant, and pretending the incremental step is an end point is irresponsible.

    "We're exploiting fewer people, and somewhat less than before" is not a finish line.

    My position is precisely "okay, that's a first step, but you need to have more steps planned towards a complete fix for the problem, so where's the next step?"


  3. #15103
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's like dealing with floodwaters, and bragging that you've lowered the levels from neck deep to chest deep. Sure, it's better that they're going down, but the problem's still significant, and pretending the incremental step is an end point is irresponsible.

    "We're exploiting fewer people, and somewhat less than before" is not a finish line.

    My position is precisely "okay, that's a first step, but you need to have more steps planned towards a complete fix for the problem, so where's the next step?"
    It's like dealing with loans, and guaranteeing that they'll be forgiven, regardless of if you've actually repaid them or not as long as you make some effort to repay them. Down to 5% of discretionary spending. But sure, keep up with that hyperbole and proving you can't say anything positive about an objectively good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  4. #15104
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It's like dealing with loans, and guaranteeing that they'll be forgiven, regardless of if you've actually repaid them or not as long as you make some effort to repay them. Down to 5% of discretionary spending. But sure, keep up with that hyperbole and proving you can't say anything positive about an objectively good thing.
    When that "good thing" doesn't actually solve the problem its meant to address, and leaves many still struggling and unable to make ends meet due to predatory lending?

    Sue me for expecting at least plans to move towards a solution. Guess we should be satisfied with the half-assed step here and never expect anything more. Is that seriously what you're arguing?

    If we were talking COVID vaccines, and the current production levels were only going to supply 20% of the population, and you were telling me I should be happy that at least 20% of the population could get vaccinated, yeah, I'd still be saying the other 80% need access too.

    Average student loan debt is up above $35k, in the USA. Sure, cutting some of that down helps, but there's still a load of debt left afterwards, on average.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-08-27 at 02:07 AM.


  5. #15105
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    When that "good thing" doesn't actually solve the problem its meant to address, and leaves many still struggling and unable to make ends meet due to predatory lending?

    Sue me for expecting at least plans to move towards a solution. Guess we should be satisfied with the half-assed step here and never expect anything more. Is that seriously what you're arguing?

    If we were talking COVID vaccines, and the current production levels were only going to supply 20% of the population, and you were telling me I should be happy that at least 20% of the population could get vaccinated, yeah, I'd still be saying the other 80% need access too.
    This is a bad example as I think health care should be state run. Putting that aside, if you told me that the other 80% of people also had access to it and they had to pay 5% of their discretionary income for their health care, that'd be fine. This is why I call your rhetoric hyperbole, it doesn't accurately portray the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  6. #15106
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    This is a bad example as I think health care should be state run. Putting that aside, if you told me that the other 80% of people also had access to it and they had to pay 5% of their discretionary income for their health care, that'd be fine. This is why I call your rhetoric hyperbole, it doesn't accurately portray the situation.
    A lot of people don't have "discretionary income", dude.

    Nor are you explaining where I'm getting things meaningfully wrong. This won't wipe out everyone's debt; most with student loans will retain a balance. If you weren't able to make payments before, you still won't be able to. There may be a ceiling to how long that predation can go on, but it's still being allowed.


  7. #15107
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    A lot of people don't have "discretionary income", dude.

    Nor are you explaining where I'm getting things meaningfully wrong. This won't wipe out everyone's debt; most with student loans will retain a balance. If you weren't able to make payments before, you still won't be able to. There may be a ceiling to how long that predation can go on, but it's still being allowed.
    Yes, and if they don't have discretionary income, their monthly payment needed to fulfill the terms for forgiveness is $0 a month. Again, where's the 5 minutes of research you want other people to do but you're unwilling to do?

    Edit: And here's where I point out where you're getting things meaningfully wrong:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It's not just 10k. It's 10k unless you have a pell grant and then it's 20k. It's also freezing the loan size so the balance doesn't accrue as long as you pay 5% (previously 10% before this executive action) of your discretionary income (while increasing what's considered discretionary income by 50%, from 1.5x poverty line to 2.25x poverty line) towards the debt. It also expanded the amount of institutions that qualify for acceptable employment for total debt forgiveness after 10 years of payments. They're also expanding the criteria for people who will qualify for loans that go away after 20 years of payments, regardless of employment. It also orders the DoEducation to simplify that process.

    Last edited by Ripster42; 2022-08-27 at 02:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  8. #15108
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Yes, and if they don't have discretionary income, their monthly payment needed to fulfill the terms for forgiveness is $0 a month. Again, where's the 5 minutes of research you want other people to do but you're unwilling to do?

    Edit: And here's where I point out where you're getting things meaningfully wrong:
    That's pointing out additional details that add a little nuance, yes, but I wouldn't say that's "meaningful". I don't want to go over the precise details of every single element of the plan every time I make a post.

    And it's not like I'm alone in this opinion. Plenty of advocacy groups are saying the same things I am;
    https://www.businessinsider.com/crit...vocates-2022-8
    https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkj...ill-not-enough
    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/25/11192...ess-debt-biden

    Plus, you're accusing me of "hyperbole". Where's the exaggeration for effect? There will be people left struggling. This doesn't actually fully solve the student debt problem. There is plenty of room for additional work to be done. Which of those statement is even an exaggeration, let alone intentional hyperbole?


  9. #15109
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    When that "good thing" doesn't actually solve the problem its meant to address, and leaves many still struggling and unable to make ends meet due to predatory lending?

    Sue me for expecting at least plans to move towards a solution. Guess we should be satisfied with the half-assed step here and never expect anything more. Is that seriously what you're arguing?
    I mean...it kinda does. Not perfectly, but it does.

    People making <$15/h won't have to pay shit. Period. And their interest won't go up while they're not paying shit. Sure, forgiveness is better overall but that's a good stop-gap solution that's actually politically possible. On top of that, payments for everyone else are going down to below half of what they used to pay, while still not accruing any interest as long as they make those payments, which are much lower than previously.

    Again, there's a way to go for what many of us think is ideal. But this is, unarguably, a huge step forward that helps a lot of people.

  10. #15110
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean...it kinda does. Not perfectly, but it does.

    People making <$15/h won't have to pay shit. Period. And their interest won't go up while they're not paying shit. Sure, forgiveness is better overall but that's a good stop-gap solution that's actually politically possible. On top of that, payments for everyone else are going down to below half of what they used to pay, while still not accruing any interest as long as they make those payments, which are much lower than previously.

    Again, there's a way to go for what many of us think is ideal. But this is, unarguably, a huge step forward that helps a lot of people.
    Sure. But I'm being taken to task here for daring to suggest that more should be done. I never said this wasn't a good thing. I said it wasn't a complete solution to the entire problem and people should still be looking for/expecting more.


  11. #15111
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's pointing out additional details that add a little nuance, yes, but I wouldn't say that's "meaningful". I don't want to go over the precise details of every single element of the plan every time I make a post.

    And it's not like I'm alone in this opinion. Plenty of advocacy groups are saying the same things I am;
    I'll look through them.
    Sure seems like they are also fixating on the 10k and nothing else. The OTHER stuff is bigger than the 10k.
    Seems like you didn't read the article, just did a word search and posted it.
    Selected:
    If the most strident critics of the plan are to be believed, then this amounts to a massive wealth transfer from downtrodden working class people to coastal elites with fancy degrees. The reality is quite different: 53 percent of borrowers owe less than $20,000 and typically have a harder time paying back their balances because they didn’t finish school. The White House estimates this will provide relief for up to 43 million borrowers, cancel debt entirely for about 20 million borrowers, and the relief will mainly go to low- and middle- income borrowers (about 90 percent to those making less than $75,000).
    “​​This is a stepping stone, not the destination. A President who wanted to do NOTHING had to do something,” tweeted Astra Taylor, a co-founder of the Strike Debt collective. “Up to 20 million people could be debt free. Hopefully some of them will join the fight for everyone else.”
    This is the tone you should be striking. Celebrating the victory, asking what's next. Not "chest deep" or "30' pit".


    https://www.npr.org/2022/08/25/11192...ess-debt-bidenHmm, let's see, first paragraph:
    William Alexander was ecstatic when he read President Joe Biden's tweet on Wednesday, announcing the administration's student loan forgiveness plan.

    "Literally life-changing," he says.
    Let's go to a critic though:

    "We have public service loan forgiveness. We have income-driven repayment, which are both repayment options that promise debt forgiveness or debt cancellation already within the higher education system," he says.

    But, he said, the Government Accountability Office and other government watchdogs have found that those programs have not been working.

    "There's a question of fairness to borrowers who were hoping to rely on those programs in order to see some debt relief," Bass says. "Those programs have not worked. So debt cancellation, especially one that's broad based, could be seen as, you know, making good on the government's promise to those borrowers."
    The first people who qualified for debt forgiveness did so under devos, who was illegally blocking that forgiveness. She's gone, and, as previously noted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It also orders the DoEducation to simplify that process.
    Dude isn't even really criticizing the action either. Remember what thread you're in. This is the "Biden/Harris thread", not the "US Congress/Student loan" thread. The problem Bass wants to address, and is critical about here, has to be remedied by congress and states: additional grants and lowered tuition.

    Again, really feels like you didn't actually read those articles.
    Plus, you're accusing me of "hyperbole". Where's the exaggeration for effect? There will be people left struggling. This doesn't actually fully solve the student debt problem. There is plenty of room for additional work to be done. Which of those statement is even an exaggeration, let alone intentional hyperbole?
    "Neck deep in floodwater to chest deep in floodwater" is intentional hyperbole. "30' pit and 5' of rope" is intentional hyperbole.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sure. But I'm being taken to task here for daring to suggest that more should be done. I never said this wasn't a good thing. I said it wasn't a complete solution to the entire problem and people should still be looking for/expecting more.
    Even in the worst case, ignoring the 10k-20k forgiveness, halving the monthly payment and preventing interest from accruing is huge. Your whole tone has been, "this is a pittance" which is just complete bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I mean...it kinda does. Not perfectly, but it does.

    People making <$15/h won't have to pay shit.
    Should be pointed out, people making less than $15/hr or more, depending on where you live. Discretionary income is location determinant. $15 an hour living in shithole, wyoming or bumfuck, iowa won't be paying dick on federal student loans. It's going to be higher in SF/LA/Wherever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  12. #15112
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    Pretty sure Business degrees are the most subscribed too in the US.
    What the world needs to do is legalize drugs and criminalize possession and trafficking in business degrees.

    You'll get let off with a warning if you just have a Bachelor's.

    MBAs, straight to jail.

    And if some psychotic invents a doctorate in business administration, we just shoot them.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  13. #15113
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post


    Sadly, the president doesn't have the authority to do anything about private loans without action from congress.
    Thanks for repeating what I said?

  14. #15114
    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    Thanks for repeating what I said?
    Saying it's only for federal loans, and saying the president doesn't have the authority to do anything about loans that aren't federal loans isn't repeating what you said. One is lamenting that it doesn't help all borrowers. The other is pointing out that he doesn't have the authority to adjust the terms of private loans or wave portions of those balances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  15. #15115
    $10k is a beginning. And one that should be lauded as such. Anyone demanding more in an environment that stubbornly refuses to budge an inch is setting such a beginning up for failure.

  16. #15116
    Ok, I am going to put this here because it does involve Biden.

    What is the best way to piss of a narcissist? Talk about them but "forget" their actual name. MTG get upset at Biden because he called her "What's her name?" when talking to reporters about the fact some GOP members in government took loans and had them forgiven but are complaining about the student loan forgiveness.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...744ce8a29f374b

    Marjorie Taylor Greene Lashes out After Biden Calls Her 'What's Her Name'

    Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia expressed outrage toward President Joe Biden on Friday after he referred to her as "what's her name."

    Greene and other Republicans who had large Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans forgiven, all well in excess of $100,000, were targeted by the official White House Twitter account on Thursday for alleged hypocrisy due to their denouncement of Biden's student loan debt forgiveness program, which forgives up to $20,000 in debt per borrower. Greene on Friday targeted Biden repeatedly on Twitter.

    The Georgia Republican condemned the president earlier on Friday while sharing a short video clip of him saying that he does not "respect these MAGA Republicans." Greene told Biden to "go to hell" after accusing him of destroying the economy, importing "deadly drugs," "killing the unborn" and "genital mutilation of children."

    "I don't respect you for leaving our border wide open allowing an invasion & deadly drugs in daily, arming the Taliban, wrecking our economy, killing our energy independence, & supporting killing the unborn & genital mutilation of children," Greene tweeted. "Go to hell Joe."

    Hours later, Greene appeared to accuse the president of "buying votes"—likely a reference to her support of disproven conspiracy theories claiming that the 2020 presidential election was "stolen" from former President Donald Trump—after sharing a clip of Biden referencing Republican PPP loan forgiveness while dismissing her as "what's her name."

    "I found it fascinating that some of the folks who were talking about 'this is big spending' are the same people that got $158,000 in PPP money," Biden told reporters outside the White House in the clip shared by Greene. "Including the... what's her name? That woman who believes in... well, anyway, a whole lot of Republicans got a lot of money. The very people criticizing."

    "Well if his dementia wasn't so bad he could remember," Greene tweeted in response. "At least President Trump knows everyone's name. Joe is a career politician that knows nothing about making payroll during a tyrannical government shutdown. He only knows how to buy votes."

    Nick Dyer, communications director for Greene, told Newsweek in a statement responding to the White House tweet that Greene's office "can't seem to find a tweet condemning the acts of political terrorism committed against Congresswoman Greene this week."

    Greene said that she was "swatted"—a term typically referring to receiving harsh treatment from law enforcement after being targeted with false reports to police—multiple times this week after police rang her doorbell following false reports, claiming that "political terrorism" from supporters of transgender rights were to blame.

    Greene proposed an anti-transgender law last week that would make gender-affirming medical care for transgender children a felony, ban medical and mental health professionals from learning about the treatments in college and block funding any related treatment for adults—despite the treatments being overwhelmingly backed as the standard of care for transgender people by the mainstream medical establishment.

    Greene also denounced an online forum best known for harassing and stalking transgender people earlier this week after police linked the forum to her own "swatting." The congresswoman, who has lashed out against alleged "free speech" violations conservatives have experienced on social media platforms, demanded that the forum be "taken down" by the government.
    Remember, MTG wants to it be like Cheers where everybody knows your name and their always glad you came. Too bad for MTG and the rest, that isn't the case. You are not Norm nor are like loveable Cliff Claven.

  17. #15117
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    Ok, I am going to put this here because it does involve Biden.

    What is the best way to piss of a narcissist? Talk about them but "forget" their actual name. MTG get upset at Biden because he called her "What's her name?" when talking to reporters about the fact some GOP members in government took loans and had them forgiven but are complaining about the student loan forgiveness.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...744ce8a29f374b



    Remember, MTG wants to it be like Cheers where everybody knows your name and their always glad you came. Too bad for MTG and the rest, that isn't the case. You are not Norm nor are like loveable Cliff Claven.
    Tim Apple would disagree on the note about Trump knowing everyone's name
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  18. #15118
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Saying it's only for federal loans, and saying the president doesn't have the authority to do anything about loans that aren't federal loans isn't repeating what you said. One is lamenting that it doesn't help all borrowers. The other is pointing out that he doesn't have the authority to adjust the terms of private loans or wave portions of those balances.
    Except for the fact I lamented the fact that it doesn't apply to all borrowers and they should do what they can to prosecute the remaining crooks for fraud, implying that I understand that he cannot cancel it all but there are other things that can be done.

    So, for clarification, thanks for repeating half of what I said.

  19. #15119
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    I'm seeing my Alabama releatives, unable to post things about Trump because they know I'll flag them for lying, posting memes about Biden's student loan forgiveness. It's what you'd expect: I paid my debts, don't take others' money for your poor habits, etc etc.



    So, yeah, wake me when they're not being hypocrites.

  20. #15120
    The Insane Kathandira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    Ok, I am going to put this here because it does involve Biden.

    What is the best way to piss of a narcissist? Talk about them but "forget" their actual name. MTG get upset at Biden because he called her "What's her name?" when talking to reporters about the fact some GOP members in government took loans and had them forgiven but are complaining about the student loan forgiveness.
    Isn't this the same POS that cries out "Let's go Brandon" on podcasts and on stages?
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