Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Paranoid Android]

Dems didnt leave labor. White labor left the Dems. The amount of white union men switching over this, is miniscule. Most of the them left years or decades ago.
I bet if you did some generic poll of Republican blue collar workers that say "should you have paid sick leave ... but your minorty co-workers get the same." A strong 98% would say "fuck no, they didnt earn it!" SO nobody gets it.

Biden will also lose the votes of Cosplay Leftists and part-time editors of Dissent and MEdia Matters. Just kidding ... they dont vote. These guys are stuck in their think tank bubbles. They're married to their Class Reductionism. They romanticize the idea of a General Strike, and cannot comprehend the backlash.

You are correct. I was going to type this but wanted to leave it simple Yes, white labor left cause more of the cause of civil rights and what they consider left, or white victimhood did not want them to stay in the Democrat Party. So no doubt, we can really say that the Dems maybe can't get them back.

I will keep with that this is busting by Biden is horrible. May not keep or attract what we would call white collar workers, but sure looks bad to any person who thinks the Dems are pro-labor and union.

[jonnysensible]

where does organized labour go in national politics if it is actively despised by republicans and ignored by democrats?

we sort of have the same problem in the uk. Two dominant parties that are split between - higher educated elites vs higher income elites. seems like its gonna be bad for social cohesion, throwing one group under the bus to appease the main base for who these problems are thought experiments and not real life.

milkshake feel free to tell templar that he doesnt deserve sick pay btw.

[Nurasu]

where does organized labour go in national politics if it is actively despised by republicans and ignored by democrats?

we sort of have the same problem in the uk. Two dominant parties that are split between - higher educated elites vs higher income elites. seems like its gonna be bad for social cohesion, throwing one group under the bus to appease the main base for who these problems are thought experiments and not real life.

milkshake feel free to tell templar that he doesnt deserve sick pay btw.

Sit tight and vote harder. It’s been working since the 80’s, so long as the goal is to usher in the second gilded age. I’m being told in this thread that even if progressives gain power, they shouldn’t use it since this is the best possible outcome for the nation as a whole.

[Milchshake]

where does organized labour go in national politics if it is actively despised by republicans and ignored by democrats?

we sort of have the same problem in the uk. Two dominant parties that are split between - higher educated elites vs higher income elites. seems like its gonna be bad for social cohesion, throwing one group under the bus to appease the main base for who these problems are thought experiments and not real life.

milkshake feel free to tell templar that he doesnt deserve sick pay btw.

Everyone deserves sick pay, it's a human right. We should have a national standard. The best chance to create national standard is to ... elect more Dems. Also to keep them in power. Support them through the inevitable blacklashes that come with actual governance.

Actual governance means compromise. When your party or faction ever wins power again. Let us know!


Speaking of the largest and most diverse left coalition party in the West. Biden and Dem leadership announced a proposal to change the presidential primary schedule.
States that better reflect the diversity of the Democratic Party got moved up!

South Carolina on Feb 3
NH/NV on Feb 6
GA on Feb 20
MI on Feb 27

[Elegiac]

where does organized labour go in national politics if it is actively despised by republicans and ignored by democrats?

The answer to that has to do with why Edge is fundamentally correct about averting the strike by any means being more politically savvy in the current climate and why takes like "just let the strike happen, people will blame the corporations" are wrong. That being the United States does not have a developed sense of class consciousness.

Unlike terminally online people that are familiar with academia on the subject of capital, most voters will not look at workers striking and see fellow workers; they'll focus entirely on how the strike inconveniencing them and respond to media narratives that shift the blame to labor unions or to the government. We even see it in this very thread with how people are blaming the Democrats for not meeting worker demand when (barring Manchin), they did; they simply do not have the numbers in government to translate that into legislative action and likely won't until a certain level of electoral and legislative reform has been achieved.

So the answer, as with every reformist movement in the United States ranging from women's suffrage to gay marriage to ranked choice voting, is that the consciousness which is lacking has to be built from the ground up rather than expecting change to spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. It is better to view the playing field as one in which labor has to start from scratch, because that has effectively been the case since the end of the New Deal era.

[Edge-]

The answer to that has to do with why Edge is fundamentally correct about averting the strike by any means being more politically savvy in the current climate and why takes like "just let the strike happen, people will blame the corporations" are wrong. That being the United States does not have a developed sense of class consciousness.

Unlike terminally online people that are familiar with academia on the subject of capital, most voters will not look at workers striking and see fellow workers; they'll focus entirely on how the strike inconveniencing them and respond to media narratives that shift the blame to labor unions or to the government. We even see it in this very thread with how people are blaming the Democrats for not meeting worker demand when (barring Manchin), they did; they simply do not have the numbers in government to translate that into legislative action and likely won't until a certain level of electoral and legislative reform has been achieved.

So the answer, as with every reformist movement in the United States ranging from women's suffrage to gay marriage to ranked choice voting, is that the consciousness which is lacking has to be built from the ground up rather than expecting change to spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. It is better to view the playing field as one in which labor has to start from scratch, because that has effectively been the case since the end of the New Deal era.

Basically, this. It's a series of "bad" half-deals on the path forward. We've seen this work out already for Democrats previously, and with the House set to pass the same-sex marriage protection next week after the Senate passed it this week, I'd argue that yeah, we're seeing steps forward. Comes on the back of Roe's overturning, but that was not within Democrats control unfortunately. And that's a topic that's continuing to trend Democrats way, even if the current climate isn't really set for national protections.

[Elegiac]

Basically, this. It's a series of "bad" half-deals on the path forward. We've seen this work out already for Democrats previously, and with the House set to pass the same-sex marriage protection next week after the Senate passed it this week, I'd argue that yeah, we're seeing steps forward. Comes on the back of Roe's overturning, but that was not within Democrats control unfortunately. And that's a topic that's continuing to trend Democrats way, even if the current climate isn't really set for national protections.

Similarly, things like ranked choice voting and cannabis legalization are in fact making steps forward at the local and state level - to say nothing of abortion. People have a tendency to forget that for all the achievements of the New Deal, it was preceded by decades of political groundwork at which laid the path for voters being receptive to those sorts of reforms.

[Templar 331]

Like, that's literally the option Biden left on the table, unconsidered, in his rush to protect corporate interests' bottom lines against the demands of workers for fair and equitable pay.

Just going to leave this here.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...X5sSEj82e2lglY

All of which invites the question: Why do these rail barons hate paid leave so much? Why would a company have no problem handing out 24 percent raises, $1,000 bonuses, and caps on health-care premiums but draw the line on providing a benefit as standard and ubiquitous throughout modern industry as paid sick days?
The answer, in short, is “P.S.R.” — or precision-scheduled railroading.

P.S.R. is an operational strategy that aims to minimize the ratio between railroads’ operating costs and their revenues through various cost-cutting and (ostensibly) efficiency-increasing measures. The basic idea is to transport more freight using fewer workers and railcars.
One way to do this is to make trains longer: A single 100-car train requires less track space than two 50-car ones since you need to maintain some distance between the latter. More critically, one very long train requires fewer crew members to run than two medium ones.

Another way to get more with less is to streamline scheduling so that trains are running at full capacity as often as possible.
All this has worked out poorly for rail workers writ large. Over the past six years, America’s major freight carriers have shed 30 percent of their employees. To compensate for this lost staffing, remaining workers must tolerate irregular schedules and little time off since the railroads don’t have much spare labor capacity left.

[unfilteredJW]

"Just wait it'll get better down the road."

Looks at road lined with bodies, looks at camera.

And before you ask, yes, the answer is guillotines.

[Edge-]

https://twitter.com/RepPatFallon/sta...34102456999936

Republican Rep. Pat Fallon really wants to know WHAT BIDEN IS DOING ABOUT THE 14,000LBS OF FENTANYL SEIZED AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER!

Uh...they're stopping record amounts of drugs from crossing the border and that's...a good thing? Does he not know what "seized" means? Does he think it means like, having a seizure?

In other news - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/02/jobs...mber-2022.html

263K new nonfarm payroll additions, steady 3.7% unemployment. That's around 15% higher than the expected 200K. Also, hourly earnings up slightly (.6% vs. .3%) and higher annual gains (5.1% vs. 4.6%). Still not keeping up with inflation, but these are positive signs especially given the recent rate hike.

[Cthulhu 2020]

incredible amount of debating with yourself to work out that you don't support strikes or giving people paid leave lol

Incredible amount of lack of nuance to say absolutely nothing of value and completely misrepresent my positions LMAO

If people wanted to strike, they would have. Why are people on Democrat's asses for a split bill? Why are they not on the union leader's asses for accepting the deal? Why are they not on the asses of Republicans who consistently vote against worker rights? Seems odd that people always point fingers at Dems when Dems are consistently voting for worker rights.

- - - Updated - - -

And therein lies the problem with this country. It's an all or nothing game with Dems pushing compromise. If roles were reversed you can bet your ass Republicans would burn this country to the ground. If both sides were genuine in their role to run this country properly, compromise is the best course of action. But we have one political party that has made it their M.O. to stop government from running in any fashion. What do you do to fix that? Rock the boat so fucking hard they fall off!!

Looking at your post you know what would happen during a railroad strike. And you are right that the Dems would probably shoulder some of the blame, but this country needs a wake up call and this was it. By sacrificing something as basic as sick leave they have shown that the Dems will compromise anything to avoid fallout from Republican bullshit. That is weakness. What should have happened is all of this should have been on one vote. Even if it was going to fail, let it. We would go on strike and the cost of everything would go up. Let it. Food would rot, fuel and essentials wouldn't be delivered. Let it. Only when this country is suffering together will it understand what is at stake. It's easy to turn a blind eye to this mess when everything is working and that is the goal of a politician. To keep everything working, even just barely. It's when things breakdown that the politicians have to go to work. They have to show they've done something. With this measure both sides have something to show, but look at what they gave up to get it.

You're completely 100% right. Our entire system is broken through and through. Nothing is going to improve as long as we need Republican votes to improve them. It wouldn't matter who is in power, whether it was the Democrats or socialist wing. Everything would be stonewalled by the right.

Biden and the Dems are just as if not more so responsible for this than the Republicans. It was Biden's Tentative Agreement that didn't include sick leave. It was Nancy that pushed two separate bills through the House. They were the ones in power, they were the ones proposing these measures. "We didn't have the votes" isn't a good enough excuse to half ass something as important as this.

But this is where I fundamentally disagree in this whole thing. As I said, the union leaders/reps could have pushed back against this legislation. Did they? Nope.

I will mention this, supply chains would be severely disrupted during the busiest shipping time of year in the US. And it wouldn't just be Christmas packages. Food vital for people's continued nourishment would dwindle in areas that rely heavily on food being shipped in (mostly urban areas), medicine for those whose very lives are being maintained by said medicine. Fuels that run our cars and power plants would fail to be delivered, gas lines in major cities would pile up and people would go without heat in their homes.

How many people's lives are people willing to sacrifice just to push for paid sick leave for railroad workers? It isn't some black and white issue, and anyone who claims it is is a fucking moron. It's a complex issue with no easy answer, and Dems wanted to avert a Christmas disaster because they knew it would land at their feet if a strike happened. And that's the thing, even if Republicans are ultimately the ones responsible for shutting down worker rights, they're masters at manipulating the narrative. Look at all the people in this thread who are whinging about Democrats being villains, rather than looking to those who are always going against worker rights. Their narratives work, and the sad part is watching the socialist wing get manipulated by the right just like 2016.

- - - Updated - - -

"But there might have been inconveniences!"

That's the point of strikes. To cause enough harm to the company's business that they cave. This is a good thing, because it's the only power labor has. The only way they can strike back at employers who engage in similar harms against their staff constantly as a regular matter of business.

It's far more than just inconveniences Endus. The rail is vital to getting goods around the USA. Without them our entire system has its legs chopped off. As I pointed out above, how many lives are people willing to sacrifice? It's not some black and white issue.

You KNOW that the Republicans would revel in a Christmas railroad strike. Urbanites would go without food, fuel, power, medicine, etc. in the quantities that they are used to having. Urbanites who make up the largest part of Dem's voting bloc. Urbanites who could turn around and vote the other way, being led to believe Republicans would be better for them.




AGAIN, I don't why it's so hard. One party is voting for worker rights, the other party is voting against worker rights. It's not fucking rocket science to see who's clearly in the wrong.

[Edge-]

AGAIN, I don't why it's so hard. One party is voting for worker rights, the other party is voting against worker rights. It's not fucking rocket science to see who's clearly in the wrong.

And before the expected posts come, I don't think any of us believe that Democrats are fully for workers rights, especially with the need to maintain corporate donors until campaign finance reform can go through (and because I'm sure plenty enjoy the perks of working with lobbyists). We know they're not a "hard labor-focused" party as a whole, with a mix of members that believe this and more corporate Democrats. But the point being that Democrats are going to get labor/unions the best chance at progress/better deals and worth continuing to vote for, while working within the party to get more unarguably pro-labor candidates elected.

Though to your point that wouldn't necessarily change the calculus here, as shitty as that is.

[gondrin]

Just going to leave this here.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...X5sSEj82e2lglY

Honestly, if Congress really wanted to do something viable, make critical industries such as railroads have a minimal staffing requirement along with a minimum amount of time off per week and between shifts.

A lot of the issues stemmed from the fact that people like Buffet who own the rail companies decided to reduce staff redundancies in order to streamline things. While that may work in some cases, in others, like this, it can cause major issues down the road.

[Cthulhu 2020]

So Biden tweeted out a pretty clear condemnation of hatred and anti semitism.

The tweet replies are filled with reich wingers whining about Hunter Biden's laptop. I don't even think they know why they believe Hunter's laptop is even bad any more. They just parrot it over and over.

Also found this.

[Edge-]

So Biden tweeted out a pretty clear condemnation of hatred and anti semitism.

It didn't even take a 48 hour bipartisan pressure campaign! What the fuck!

[Cthulhu 2020]

So apparently Musk was having Matt Taibbi "Blow the lid off of" the Hunter Biden laptop situation. Conservatives are cheering and celebrating. While he's demonstrated that both Democrats and Republican parties had access to twitter directly to have certain tweets "reviewed" and deleted, they have yet to demonstrate any kind of wrongdoing on the part of Hunter Biden as per their claims of collusion with Russia.

It's a giant fucking nothingburger and Republicans are eating it up and praising Musk for "delivering".

Sometimes reality is more hilarious than fiction.

[Edge-]

So apparently Musk was having Matt Taibbi "Blow the lid off of" the Hunter Biden laptop situation. Conservatives are cheering and celebrating. While he's demonstrated that both Democrats and Republican parties had access to twitter directly to have certain tweets "reviewed" and deleted, they have yet to demonstrate any kind of wrongdoing on the part of Hunter Biden as per their claims of collusion with Russia.

It's a giant fucking nothingburger and Republicans are eating it up and praising Musk for "delivering".

Sometimes reality is more hilarious than fiction.

What's hilarious is I'm seeing media picking up "the story" which is that Twitter voluntarily suppressed this which...we literally already knew.

[Toppy]

This is just going to cause more advertisers to drop the platform, so, good on Musk? I suppos he's trying to force bankruptcy now?

[Dontrike]

https://twitter.com/RepPatFallon/sta...34102456999936

Republican Rep. Pat Fallon really wants to know WHAT BIDEN IS DOING ABOUT THE 14,000LBS OF FENTANYL SEIZED AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER!

Uh...they're stopping record amounts of drugs from crossing the border and that's...a good thing? Does he not know what "seized" means? Does he think it means like, having a seizure?

In other news - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/02/jobs...mber-2022.html

263K new nonfarm payroll additions, steady 3.7% unemployment. That's around 15% higher than the expected 200K. Also, hourly earnings up slightly (.6% vs. .3%) and higher annual gains (5.1% vs. 4.6%). Still not keeping up with inflation, but these are positive signs especially given the recent rate hike.

Republicans have been trying to make "less drugs coming through" sound like a bad thing. I'm sure there's some stupid reason why, but hell knows I can't figure it out.

[Edge-]

Republicans have been trying to make "less drugs coming through" sound like a bad thing. I'm sure there's some stupid reason why, but hell knows I can't figure it out.

It kinda works on their target demographic, at least. They connect "drugs" and "border" to mean that there's tons of drugs coming over the border! Something in their brains genuinely seems to short circuit when it comes to thinking about what happened to them once they arrived in the US.