Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Dontrike]

https://twitter.com/RepPatFallon/sta...34102456999936

Republican Rep. Pat Fallon really wants to know WHAT BIDEN IS DOING ABOUT THE 14,000LBS OF FENTANYL SEIZED AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER!

Uh...they're stopping record amounts of drugs from crossing the border and that's...a good thing? Does he not know what "seized" means? Does he think it means like, having a seizure?

In other news - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/02/jobs...mber-2022.html

263K new nonfarm payroll additions, steady 3.7% unemployment. That's around 15% higher than the expected 200K. Also, hourly earnings up slightly (.6% vs. .3%) and higher annual gains (5.1% vs. 4.6%). Still not keeping up with inflation, but these are positive signs especially given the recent rate hike.

Republicans have been trying to make "less drugs coming through" sound like a bad thing. I'm sure there's some stupid reason why, but hell knows I can't figure it out.

[Edge-]

Republicans have been trying to make "less drugs coming through" sound like a bad thing. I'm sure there's some stupid reason why, but hell knows I can't figure it out.

It kinda works on their target demographic, at least. They connect "drugs" and "border" to mean that there's tons of drugs coming over the border! Something in their brains genuinely seems to short circuit when it comes to thinking about what happened to them once they arrived in the US.

[Kaleredar]

Republicans have been trying to make "less drugs coming through" sound like a bad thing. I'm sure there's some stupid reason why, but hell knows I can't figure it out.

Clearly, the weak democrats are sending the message that it will be easy to get drugs through the border because they aren't... uh, I guess stopping their production in other countries... or are "too weak on crime" such that they allow their dispersal statewide.

Obviously, the drugs being stopped was only affected by the proper, god-fearing republican border guards, interceding to save us all from the mexican rapists, as foretold by the profit Donald Trump.

[eschatological]

Actual governance means compromise. When your party or faction ever wins power again. Let us know!

You should never compromise right with wrong. If you believe sick pay is a human right, compromising sick pay with no sick pay is immoral. Simple as that. And as a President who has branded himself a Labor President at every turn and especially makes a big deal of how he rode the rails home every weekend as a Senator, it's especially disconcerting Biden called to legislatively break this strike. A scab's a scab, whether you cross a picket line or vote to negate the deal the union democratically voted for.

Also, there was one whole day on the internet where everyone was like "OH BUT THE HOUSE PUT AN AMENDMENT UP FOR 7 DAYS OF SICK LEAVE IT'S NOT OUR FAULT!!!" but they precisely did it so it could die an ignominous death in the Senate. They did the same exact thing for Build Back Better. "The Squad" should know better, at this point, they're not all doe-eyed freshmen reps any more.

It's a betrayal of labor that is rooted in the most lionized Dems of the past 30 years - the Clintons, and Obama, and their failed politics of triangulation and the Third Way. The Third Way turns out just to be the old, Republican way, but with better PR.

The Republicans are worse - but that doesn't make this particular action good.

Edit: P.S. I'm a leftist who's voted in every election since 2000, except 2004 since I was living in the deep African Bush for that one and I couldn't get my absentee vote for Kerry to the embassy in time.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, I'm not done posting yet. You claim white labor left because of grievance politics based on racism - but the truth is, white labor started leaving with NAFTA. Non-white labor only stayed because Dems are the less nominally racist party. NAFTA, if you recall, was voted for by EVERY Republican, and Dems trying out their brand new political philosophy of triangulation. The opposition was purely from progressives, who were branded as naive or worse. But they were exactly right. Labor has been fractured ever since. The only reason 2016 showed the breaking of the blue wall was because for the first time the Republican candidate gave lip service to blue collar workers. He was lying, but it was effective. It's why dumbasses like Rubio and Cruz came out in opposition to breaking this strike - not because they actually believe in organized labor, but because they know there's political capital to be gained.

If there was to be a legislative solution to an impending strike - it should have been to codify the union's deal against the corporate bosses. If you're arguing that Congress has the authority to override labor negotiations - then they can override it in favor of the union. That they didn't - that they acquiesced to everything the railway bosses wanted, is indication enough of where their priorities lie.


In other news, right wing Twitter is making big hay of the Hunter Biden laptop, and I can't for the life of me figure out what this "damning" evidence is about. The Biden campaign asked non-consensual nude pics of Hunter (which was already against Twitter TOS) to be removed, and this is "suppressing free speech"? It's exhausting trying to combat the likes of Glenn Greenwald, who is screeching in like 30 tweet threads about this. It seems fairly clear from what's released that Hunter Biden has been trading on the name of his father who has been a Senator for like 50 years since before he was born, and was VP 10 years ago, and his father has tried to keep his (political/financial) distance while trying to be a loving, supporting father. Real damning stuff.

[Endus]

If there was to be a legislative solution to an impending strike - it should have been to codify the union's deal against the corporate bosses. If you're arguing that Congress has the authority to override labor negotiations - then they can override it in favor of the union. That they didn't - that they acquiesced to everything the railway bosses wanted, is indication enough of where their priorities lie.

There's a pretty simple process of assessment for these kinds of issues, IMO.

1> Assess the demands of the workers/union, in objective comparison to standards in related fields and, where it's believed such standards may be insufficient across the board, to federal standards for federal employees.
2> If the demands of the workers are roughly equivalent to or fall short of those standards, side with the workers. That's the end of your analysis. You've already determined they're being shortchanged and this should be addressed.
2a> If acceding to those demands will put the company out of business, then the flaw is in the company's poor management, and it should either be offered the opportunity to reform that management to try and survive with the new labor contracts, or it should be allowed to collapse. If it is too important a company/industry to allow collapse (as is the case with railroads, for instance), nationalize that industry because the private sector has already demonstrated gross incompetence that put the economy at direct risk.
3> If the demands exceed those standards, evaluate how reasonable they are in comparison. Pay a couple percentage points higher isn't a big deal and those other standards may themselves be insufficient, or there may be good reasons (like dangerous work conditions) that justify higher valuation. If it's determined to be reasonable, respond as in #2.
4> If those demands are deemed unreasonable, where "unreasonable" is only considered in terms of equitable compensation and not in profitability in any respect whatsoever, then you should profer a counter-offer equivalent to those prior standards and see if that's acceptable. Only if that offer is refused should legal action be considered to force compliance by the workers.

Anything other than this is an anti-labor stance that fundamentally puts capitalist grift and profiteering at a higher consideration than worker welfare.

In other news, right wing Twitter is making big hay of the Hunter Biden laptop, and I can't for the life of me figure out what this "damning" evidence is about. The Biden campaign asked non-consensual nude pics of Hunter (which was already against Twitter TOS) to be removed, and this is "suppressing free speech"? It's exhausting trying to combat the likes of Glenn Greenwald, who is screeching in like 30 tweet threads about this. It seems fairly clear from what's released that Hunter Biden has been trading on the name of his father who has been a Senator for like 50 years since before he was born, and was VP 10 years ago, and his father has tried to keep his (political/financial) distance while trying to be a loving, supporting father. Real damning stuff.

Also, "trading on the name of your father" or any other relative is called "networking" and "using your connections". It's standard practice. Yes, it gives advantages to those who enjoyed privileged upbringing. If you want to argue that's "unfair", let's talk about a socialist reform of the entire economy. If you're unwilling to consider that, you have no business complaining about this. It wouldn't even be a problem if Joe himself was directly introducing his son to company leadership somewhere so long as there weren't any government contracts or regulatory concerns with that company where there could be any kind of conflict of interest with Joe's position in government. The issue is any implied tit-for-tat, if there's no such implication, there's no problem.

[eschatological]

Yeah I mean I'm all for stamping out nepotism, and re-emphasizing meritocracy, but when Jared Kushner got 2 billion from the Saudis for being a White House advisor and SIL to Trump, I feel like Hunter's consulting gigs aren't your first priority. Hell, we elected a President because his father was a President and he seemed like a good guy to get a beer with.

But such a focus is actual socialism and egalitarianism, which runs counter to every conservative mindset, so they have to twist it to somehow suggest Dubya, Kushner, DJTJ et al are somehow meritous and deserve their positions, while Hunter does not. To be clear: I don't think any of them deserved their positions. Hell, Trump himself traded off his father's name. Musk traded off his family's name too. It's literally all of them.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The rail workers didn't get nothing, even though people seem to make it sound like they very much did get nothing.

They got a 24% pay increase over two years, $1k bonuses (not sure how applied but ah well) and removal of penalties for sick absences from work.

Rail workers already make very decent bank. Among laborers in the US, they're definitely not among the class of people who are living paycheck to paycheck. They're not the kind of people who will go into debt if they miss a couple of days of work, and a couple of days of missed work is going to be all the more irrelevant when they're making 24% more.

So knowing all of this was part of the deal, what kind of "body count" do people find acceptable to give rail workers sick days? 10 people? 1000? How many people need to die from lack of food, medicine, or proper heating in their houses to give rail workers sick leave? And do you believe it would work knowing that most of these would be urbanites, considering they are the ones who rely more on railway deliveries than any other kind of American? This would be twisted against Democrats regardless of the outcome.

It's not a moral or immoral choice. That's looking at this issue through the lens of a child. It's a more complex and nuanced issue than people are making it out to be.

Also, "trading on the name of your father" or any other relative is called "networking" and "using your connections". It's standard practice. Yes, it gives advantages to those who enjoyed privileged upbringing. If you want to argue that's "unfair", let's talk about a socialist reform of the entire economy. If you're unwilling to consider that, you have no business complaining about this. It wouldn't even be a problem if Joe himself was directly introducing his son to company leadership somewhere so long as there weren't any government contracts or regulatory concerns with that company where there could be any kind of conflict of interest with Joe's position in government. The issue is any implied tit-for-tat, if there's no such implication, there's no problem.

Republicans on Twitter are also making a stink on Twitter about how Democrats hate the working man, which is hilarious considering their guys are the ones who voted against sick leave. But the entire conversation is about how Democrats split it into two bills, so that's all anyone is talking about. It really is amazing how Twitter has such a huge sway over the discourse of our country's politics, even after the Elmo takeover. Nobody's really talking about how Republicans always vote against worker rights. The conversation is entirely about how anti-labor the Democrats are. Despite, you know, getting rail workers a pretty nice deal as it is. There's zero nuance though, zero gray. It seems to be a black and white issue for everyone, and even the left is falling for the right's propaganda now.

[Nurasu]

Republicans on Twitter are also making a stink on Twitter about how Democrats hate the working man, which is hilarious considering their guys are the ones who voted against sick leave. But the entire conversation is about how Democrats split it into two bills, so that's all anyone is talking about. It really is amazing how Twitter has such a huge sway over the discourse of our country's politics, even after the Elmo takeover. Nobody's really talking about how Republicans always vote against worker rights. The conversation is entirely about how anti-labor the Democrats are. Despite, you know, getting rail workers a pretty nice deal as it is. There's zero nuance though, zero gray. It seems to be a black and white issue for everyone, and even the left is falling for the right's propaganda now.

We elected Democrats to protect us from the Republican's agenda, not help to enact it. It shouldn't be surprising many Democrats are more angry with the party that is supposed to represent them than with the party they already know does not.

[Cthulhu 2020]

We elected Democrats to protect us from the Republican's agenda, not help to enact it. It shouldn't be surprising many Democrats are more angry with the party that is supposed to represent them than with the party they already know does not.

"Help enact it". Man you people are hard up aren't you? They could have put the two bills together, and it wouldn't have passed. Rail strike would have happened, supply lines would be disrupted, cities would go without resources, people would die, and Republicans (and by extension, every useful idiot who seems inclined to make everything about Dems) would blame Dems for THAT catastrophe.

Genuinely, what do you people think that Dems could have done? They weren't getting the votes since it would have required 60 total. And Republicans were going to spin it against them regardless of what happened and would never vote for sick pay.

In addition, you ignored the other part of my post. Rail workers got a 24% pay increase over 2 years, bonus pay, and a removal of sick absence penalties. Rail workers receive GENEROUS compensation. They're not the industry that lives paycheck to paycheck where a sick day can put you behind on bills.

So again, let me ask you, what sort of body count would be acceptable for rail workers to get paid sick leave above and beyond what they already got?

[Endus]

So again, let me ask you, what sort of body count would be acceptable for rail workers to get paid sick leave above and beyond what they already got?

If there's going to be a "body count", maybe the government should nationalize the industry because it's clearly too critical to the nation's economic security and too dysfunctional as a capitalist model to function properly as a private sector industry.

Because the reality is the decision they're making here is also going to end up with a body count, just one composed mostly of railroad workers pushing themselves too hard.

If you can't resolve this without some significantly negative outcome, then your entire governmental system and economy is literally failing. This is what failure states look like. It's entirely possible these kinds of issues mean the USA can't survive and should be reformed, most likely by Balkanizing between Republican and Democratic States though it should definitely be up to the States themselves which way they go. Maintaining a dysfunctional and harmful status quo is not "compromise" worth making.

[jonnysensible]

So again, let me ask you, what sort of body count would be acceptable for rail workers to get paid sick leave above and beyond what they already got?

*looks at the covid 19 daily death count*

dunno maybe 20k?

[Cthulhu 2020]

If there's going to be a "body count", maybe the government should nationalize the industry because it's clearly too critical to the nation's economic security and too dysfunctional as a capitalist model to function properly as a private sector industry.

Because the reality is the decision they're making here is also going to end up with a body count, just one composed mostly of railroad workers pushing themselves too hard.

If you can't resolve this without some significantly negative outcome, then your entire governmental system and economy is literally failing. This is what failure states look like. It's entirely possible these kinds of issues mean the USA can't survive and should be reformed, most likely by Balkanizing between Republican and Democratic States though it should definitely be up to the States themselves which way they go. Maintaining a dysfunctional and harmful status quo is not "compromise" worth making.

I'm not arguing against any of this, and basically agree.

My point is people are trying to fit the split bill into the "immoral" box, and it's not black and white as people are making it out to be. If the rails shut down, people would die. Whether from lack of electricity (and thus heat), medicine, or food. It's the entire reason the US had a law on the books that allows congress to break rail strikes with legislation in the first place. Because it would be an unprecedented disaster.

Yes, the system needs fixing. But this decision also wasn't as anti-labor as people are making it to be either. Take your current pay and multiply it by 1.24. That's the pay raise rail workers are getting as a result of this deal. They're not getting screwed over nearly as much as people are claiming.

Rail workers are already pretty generously compensated as it is. If you want to talk about people who get screwed over by taking sick days, I can assure you there are millions who have it far far worse. And they'll never get such a generous pay increase. Why? Because Republicans are about as anti labor as you can get. But somehow this issue always falls at the feet of Democrats. The socialist left eats up right wing propaganda nearly as much as the right does. Horseshoe effect is on full display.

[jonnysensible]

Rail workers are already pretty generously compensated as it is. If you want to talk about people who get screwed over by taking sick days, I can assure you there are millions who have it far far worse. And they'll never get such a generous pay increase. Why? Because Republicans are about as anti labor as you can get. But somehow this issue always falls at the feet of Democrats. The socialist left eats up right wing propaganda nearly as much as the right does. Horseshoe effect is on full display.

this is an absolute right wing talking point lol

you just keep saying 'oh i completely agree with you BUT here is all the reasons i dont agree with you'

you can just take 10 seconds to ask the rail worker in this thread what he thinks and wants then support whatever that is. If you can get over yourself for 10 seconds.

[Cthulhu 2020]

you can just take 10 seconds to ask the rail worker in this thread what he thinks and wants then support whatever that is. If you can get over yourself for 10 seconds.

I know two rail workers. I also know several others who work in other industries. The rail workers are able to comfortably support a spouse and a kid or two with their pay, even when taking sick days. The others... barely making it by on their own.

People WEIRDLY have yet to address the fact that rail workers actually got a good bit of benefits out of this deal.

you just keep saying 'oh i completely agree with you BUT here is all the reasons i dont agree with you'

Not even close, but nice try at dunking on me with a simplistic, reductive, but ultimately useless argument. You typed out a few sentences and yet said nothing. It's just hilarious that people keep making this about Democrats, when it's Republicans who are voting against worker rights, and Republicans who are creating the talking points that Democrats are at fault and are absolutely immoral for it. Weird how the farther left often gets many of its talking points from the right though.

[Rasulis]

Some facts – only four out of the twelve unions that represented US railroad workers voted against the agreement that was brokered by Biden administration. The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees District, Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen, and SMART Transportation Division (representing conductors, brakemen, yardmen). The other eight ratified the agreement. Although in the event of a strike, they will honor the other 4 unions.

- - - Updated - - -

They got a 24% pay increase over two years, $1k bonuses (not sure how applied but ah well) and removal of penalties for sick absences from work.

This is correct. Railroad workers are some of the highest paid blue collar workers in the US. Their base pay is second only to the Longshoremen Union. Keep in mind the majority of railroad workers are non-exempt. Which meant overtime for anything over 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week. Saturdays are automatic time and a half, and Sundays & holidays are double time. Over 8 hours on Sundays & holidays are triple time. The way they are scheduled, all of them are making overtime pay.

I read it was 5k bonuses retroactive to 2020. Not sure how it will be structured either.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Some facts – only four out of the twelve unions that represented US railroad workers voted against the agreement that was brokered by Biden administration. The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees District, Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen, and SMART Transportation Division (representing conductors, brakemen, yardmen). The other eight ratified the agreement. Although in the event of a strike, they will honor the other 4 unions.

- - - Updated - - -



This is correct. Railroad workers are some of the highest paid blue collar workers in the US. Their base pay is second only to the Longshoremen Union. Keep in mind the majority of railroad workers are non-exempt. Which meant overtime for anything over 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week. Saturdays are automatic time and a half, and Sundays & holidays are double time. Over 8 hours on Sundays & holidays are triple time. The way they are scheduled, all of them are making overtime pay.

I read it was 5k bonuses retroactive to 2020. Not sure how it will be structured either.

Finally, a voice of reason in here.


I'd ask people to point out where I said railroad workers shouldn't have paid sick leave. But I'll save time by pointing out I never said any such a thing. My primary argument has been that it's stupid just how much people are blaming Biden/Democrats when 1. Biden said he would sign BOTH bills if they made it to his desk 2. The bill that passed, passed 80 to 15. The other one that would give paid time off failed with 53 to 43 votes. Votes for the second were along party lines, with Democrats supporting paid time off and Republicans voting against.

It's utterly fucking stupid to blame Democrats/Biden. But that is the line being parroted by the right AND the farther left on Twitter and other spaces. Why is there not more heat on Republicans for this? How can conservative tweeters POSSIBLY blame Biden for being "anti worker" and the people on the left retweet their shit?

[Edge-]

Why is there not more heat on Republicans for this?

Same as always.

Because this is "expected behavior" from Republicans and Democrats are supposed to live up to all these impossible ideals. It's liberals/progressives continually engaging in more of a circular firing squad rather than correctly placing the blame for the failure of various policies and bills to proceed where it rightfully rests: With the party that fairly consistently votes nearly unanimously against them.

To a point I get it: It's worth criticizing Democrats when they don't live up to their rhetoric, it's how we keep the pressure up and try to keep them "honest". No issues there. But ascribing much, and especially all, the blame to them is stupid, counterproductive, and ignores the realities you highlight in that unions were on board with some of these initial compromises where the Biden administration did help deliver additional benefits even if Congressional Democrats didn't have the votes for sick leave because Republican Senators with unlimited sick leave don't think workers deserve a whopping 7 days annually.

[unfilteredJW]

I swear to god your "What about Replublicans?!?!" shit is fucking bananas.

I can hold to task the Democrats for being shitty and this is one of those moments. The Pres is a scab and the Dems let down an industry of workers.

This happened in tandem with the GQP being awful. But keep accepting a lowered bar. I've never seen these talking points anywhere before (LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL).

[Cthulhu 2020]

I asked this before and I'll ask it again, since NOBODY answered (and nobody will answer), what could Democrats possibly have done that wouldn't have resulted in a major catastrophe for the nation?

I'll wait.



I get that the farther left is willing to let people fucking DIE for their stuff, but you won't win that game of chicken with Republicans. You never will. They'll sit on their asses, laughing at all the bad press flying at whatever party opposes them while urbanites suffer. Anyone who thinks the Bernie wing of the party would have somehow managed to pull off better, I can only laugh my ass off at how delusional that is.

[Edge-]

The Pres is a scab and the Dems let down an industry of workers.

Because reality works in binaries and sometimes you don't have to make tough decisions you normally wouldn't make due to more important broader circumstances.

Like having corporate media across most of the spectrum that will side with rail companies and place all blame on unions for a strike, backed by Republican messaging that's in-tandem blaming union members exclusively, with significant actual risks to the broader economy in the immediate/shorter term plus the massive political risk of, "Democrats ruined Christmas" - as petty as that all fucking is, which I think we can agree - to set up some kind of actual "red wave" for 2024 if Republicans can stop fighting each other.