Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Edge-]

LOL did Twitter just make it so that you have to have a twitter account to view posts? Your link doesn't work for me.

LOL

I saw this elsewhere, rofl apparently yes.

[beanman12345]

Trump: over 50% support.
DeSantis: less than 25% support.

Yep. Totally fighting it out with Trump here. Super popular!

And to bring it back to the actual thread topic; Biden will no doubt be the democratic frontrunner.

I think it's been a fairly successful Winter Blossom awareness month, The Kellyanne Conway of MMOC. In fact, that's actually just what I'm gonna be calling her from now on. Think she has well covered her bigotry, her lack of basic reading comprehension, her inability to understand simple numbers, her complete sociopathy, all while crying how she's the victim because she's really no better morally than Trump or DeSantis, blaming the left for going extreme because they're educated and anything she's not makes her uncomfortable.

Oh and Go Biden!

[NED funded]

My only complaint about student loans is that they cant be discharged in bankruptcy. Thats it.

If you went to college and took a student loan I assume you thought at some point how you will pay it back? Seems like a reasonable thing *shrugs*

[Edge-]

They can't be discharged in bankruptcy for an obvious reason: every single 22 year old graduating college could just go:



And then walk away from their loans!

You mean like everyone else can do with their debt?

Y'all know declaring bankrupty isn't like, super easy and has longterm consequences for your credit score and ability to finance things and shit, right?

[postman1782]

Not all Republicans are malicious liars — that’s an extreme, irrational view.

No, that is 100% rational. I haven't met a Republican in a long time that hasn't lied about something so mundane to make it seem like millions were being slaughtered or rights violated. Just like with these latest supreme court cases.

[Captain N]

You mean like everyone else can do with their debt?

Y'all know declaring bankrupty isn't like, super easy and has longterm consequences for your credit score and ability to finance things and shit, right?

A seven year mark on your credit report, but you'll get a boatload of credit card applications mailed to you. Which always gives you the highest APR possible if you get stupid and decide to apply for one after your bankruptcy. Also no chance of a mortgage or in most cases even a rental while it sits on your credit report.

[D Luniz]

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/167...528966656?s=20

Okay, Higher Education Act.

Quickly read up on and seems pretty broad on what Biden can do.

His second part about an "on ramp" payments, not a suspension as before is muddled and confusing to me. If you miss payment you won't default but in the press conference he say if you have the money "pay for it". I mean we can get into some deep stuff here about "you can find a way to pay for anything" so I'm not sure if this is a wink and nod of "just say you can't pay". Hmm?

ya, cause what defines "having money"

cause technically, I have the money
I just have to cut back on food
I wont die, but its back to being exhausted all the time, and irritable as hell.

[VMSmith]

I gotta hand it to the Biden administration, they were totally prepared for this ruling on Student Loan Relief (despite the fact that there should have been no standing in these cases) and have come out of the gate swinging. I was ready for them to throw their hands up in the air and say "we tried!" like Democrats tend to do, but man am I pleased with this response.

If Democrats more often stood up like this and refused to slink away with their tails between their legs then I imagine more people would be excited about voting for them. I hope this bodes well for the future.

[D Luniz]

Let me describe to you the worst higher education system funding system ever created.

1. You want to know how much it costs? Well, sorry, we won't tell you that until you tell us how much you make because we adjust the price. Basically we just take all the money you could possibly afford to spend. Unless you're rich - there's a cap so that rich people are still rich.
2. Oh, it's a bit too expensive? Don't worry, the government gives out tons of guaranteed loans without really worrying about whether you can pay them back.
3. Good news! The loans are fairly cheap because the government subsidizes them!
4. Bad news! Because the government subsidizes them and it's so easy to get loans, we just raised tuition again!
5. Oh, you actually saved enough money to pay for college instead of relying on a hodgepodge of financial aid? You idiot! Guess we'll just charge you full price, woo hoo!

So I mean, loan forgiveness or no loan forgiveness, it's still shit.

and you cant drop these loans through bankruptcy
so if there's say, a recession when you graduate, and you spend almost a decade bouncing about the country working jobs that pay 12/hr on average, but your Bch of Sci degree (so no claiming its a useless liberal arts degree from RWers) don't get you a job cause despite recruiters calling you, you keep getting told "we're looking for someone with more experience" well tough shit, you still owe us that money!!!

[D Luniz]

They can't be discharged in bankruptcy for an obvious reason: every single 22 year old graduating college could just go:



And then walk away from their loans!

My big complaint is that the government is giving them out too freely and not making sure they are used more efficiently. A study by the New York Fed suggested that for every dollar raise in the amount of subsidized loans given out by the federal government, tuition goes up 60 cents:

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibr...orts/sr733.pdf

That's tuition for everyone not just the people taking out the loans. That means it's a fantastically poor investment - they're just raising prices to profit off the subsidy because it shifts the demand curve upward.

They could easily use their market power to put the brakes on rising costs, but they won't do that. Very similar things happen in health insurance world.

and never be able to get a loan for a car/house, almost of apts wont let you sign a lease
The "everyone will file bankruptcy" claim don't work for the same reason almost no one just gets abunch of credit cards, maxes them out, then immediately declare bankruptcy

because the system is built to prevent that from being beneficial to anyone trying to do that

[NoiseTank13]

man if I had a nickel everytime someone pulled the 'just file bankruptcy LOL' i'd be able to pay off my mom's student loan of thirty years AND retire comfortably

'hurr durr its so simple i wonder how da gubbermint hadn' figgered it out yet hyuck'

[beanman12345]

and never be able to get a loan for a car/house, almost of apts wont let you sign a lease
The "everyone will file bankruptcy" claim don't work for the same reason almost no one just gets abunch of credit cards, maxes them out, then immediately declare bankruptcy

because the system is built to prevent that from being beneficial to anyone trying to do that

Don't forget civil cases, Alex Jones found out recently how it just doesn't work that way.

[Endus]

Let me describe to you the worst higher education system funding system ever created.

1. You want to know how much it costs? Well, sorry, we won't tell you that until you tell us how much you make because we adjust the price. Basically we just take all the money you could possibly afford to spend. Unless you're rich - there's a cap so that rich people are still rich.

What are you even talking about? Tuitions are generally a specific set price, maybe higher for International students but also a set price there (it's higher here in Canada, but that's because provincial subsidies don't apply to international students). Here's Harvard's tuition rates; https://www.gse.harvard.edu/financialaid/tuition

2. Oh, it's a bit too expensive? Don't worry, the government gives out tons of guaranteed loans without really worrying about whether you can pay them back.
3. Good news! The loans are fairly cheap because the government subsidizes them!

While there's a lot going on here, there's also bursaries and scholarships, and if student loans are going to cost you too much, you shouldn't be taking them out.

4. Bad news! Because the government subsidizes them and it's so easy to get loans, we just raised tuition again!

This is A> basically a conspiracy theory, and B> for-profit colleges are for-profit. Capitalism strikes again. You coming around to socialism?

5. Oh, you actually saved enough money to pay for college instead of relying on a hodgepodge of financial aid? You idiot! Guess we'll just charge you full price, woo hoo!

You're always charged "full price". Financial aid cuts that price down. If you don't need financial aid, you don't get financial aid. Why did you save up so much money if financial aid could've helped you out, in the first place? There is no sliding price scale for tuitions at any university I've seen.

[Endus]

You're definitely not. Lots of colleges give need based aid grants and "scholarships" which effectively mean different prices for different people.

No, it remains the same price, there are simply other sources to secure the funds. Grants and scholarships give you money. That money may be directly applied against your tuition, but that isn't a reduction of the price. It's assistance in paying the price by someone who's willing to pay part of it on your behalf.

It doesn't matter what how you label it, it's how much money you actually need to send out the door, and it's different depending on how wealthy you are.

Again, literally just false. You may need to pay less out of pocket, but that's not what you're describing as a price change. Particularly as a lot of scholarships and other sources of financial aid have personal funding limitations where they won't be awarded to students whose personal or family finances are sufficient to afford the base tuition, and instead go solely to students with financial need.

Here's a better page about Harvard's tuition:

https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works

Hilariously, this opens with a splash screen that states, and I quote directly here;

"We are pleased to announce that beginning in the 2023-24 academic year, families with annual incomes of up to $85,000 (up from $75,000) will be expected to contribute nothing to the cost of their child's education."

Further, elsewhere on the page;

"We base aid awards on need, not on merit. This means that financial aid supports the students who will benefit from it the most. Furthermore, we meet 100 percent of our students' demonstrated financial need."

So much for the claim that the price of tuition is aimed at excluding those from lower socioeconomic classes. Why provide links that directly debunk your own claims? Did you not bother reading them?

[Endus]

Hypothetical: I open a pizza place, and I charge $5 a slice, but I have another guy sitting there who says, hey, if you make less than 50k, I give you a $3 coupon for a your slice. This automatically happens to every person who buys a slice, it's just part of the purchase process. How much would you say the slice costs for a person who makes less than 50k? I'd argue it costs $2.

Ahh, see, now you're shifting goalposts from the actual price to the cost out of pocket.

If my parents give me a $50 gift card and I use it to buy a Playstation, is the price the store sets for the Playstation $50 cheaper? Of course not. That's the analogue, here. A third party is paying part of the cost on your behalf. The price remains the price.

In your own example, the menu board still lists the price of a slice of pizza as $5. The price didn't change. Someone else helped me afford that price, since I only had $2 in my pocket.

I didn't claim that tuition specifically is aimed at excluding those from lower socioeconomic classes either. Maybe you should read what I wrote too?

Wait, is your issue seriously that people in financial need can get support to afford college? You think that's a negative? See, that's so bafflingly cruel a position I couldn't believe you'd actually express it.

[Deus Mortis]

Pretty sure the last person openly wishing for someone to die got banned. Just saying, mods.

Pretty wild that someone can wish death upon anyone, let alone POTUS, and face no consequences.

Yeah this just established once and for all there’s a set of rules here for one sub set of posters and another for the rest of us.

GG mods. Engagement over ethics.

The main thing is Winter did not wish death upon another poster, wishing it upon users is when the ban hammer comes out, that is what got Skroe and SuperTony. Wishing death upon people who are not users on this forum is a slap on the wrist. Edge himself has done it towards Florida voters, and numerous of us have done it in the Ukraine thread towards the Russian invaders, and wishing for Putin to fall out a window with pretty much zero consequences.

I gotta hand it to the Biden administration, they were totally prepared for this ruling on Student Loan Relief (despite the fact that there should have been no standing in these cases) and have come out of the gate swinging. I was ready for them to throw their hands up in the air and say "we tried!" like Democrats tend to do, but man am I pleased with this response.

If Democrats more often stood up like this and refused to slink away with their tails between their legs then I imagine more people would be excited about voting for them. I hope this bodes well for the future.

It was nice to see politicians being prepared and ready if things did not go their way. I wish it happened far more often. I also agree it is a good look for the administration. It showed they knew the makeup of the SC would cause issues for them and prepared for it.

[PosPosPos]

To your second point, which is related to the first point: colleges giving out need based aid is a wolf in sheep's clothing because it allows them to price discriminate. Price discrimination is actually a profit maximizing strategy, because it allows you to charge the people who could afford it a higher price. There's no way that Harvard's actual sticker price would remain at 70k if it weren't for financial aid. And that's my concern.

Oh noes, the rich have to actually pay for something and potentially subsidize the less well-off part of society; what a travesty according to you, the poor-hating conservative who has a storied track record railing against anything that helps the poor at the justified expense of the rich.

[Dontrike]

Not all Republicans are malicious liars — that’s an extreme, irrational view.

Name 5 that aren't.

[Egomaniac]

Not all Republicans are malicious liars — that’s an extreme, irrational view.

Oh? Is it just a few bad apples? Where have I heard that before?

- - - Updated - - -

That's not what I said, read the rest of my post where I noted that these price raises hit the middle class hard but don't affect the rich nearly as much. Like a lot of things in the US, this is a system where the middle class takes on a higher burden than the wealthy (this has been a consistent complaint of mine with the K-12 public education system where the wealthy have segregated themselves).

You may not like my politics, but I'm not a defender of the rich.

"If the poors would just stop trying to get into Harvard...the Poors could afford to get into Harvard" is certainly a take

[Captain N]

The lengths which you guys go to try to twist my posts into something else are truly stunning.

Can we start pulling your posts about how you blame poor people for their lot in life, and bring up things like urban culture in education while claiming to be a teacher? Gaslighting is considered trolling. Please post constructively in the future.