1. #17681
    Pandaren Monk masterhorus8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Literally anyone has to win to win, so yea.

    His age is a problem, sure, but you make it a far bigger one than it actually is. Especially remembering that his opponent is only a few years younger than him, and is actually far worse when it comes to speaking and mixing up names and getting distracted and mangling words. You remember, like that time Joe repeatedly criticized Speaker Nikki Haley for not securing the House on Jan. 6.

    I want to win the election too. I'd argue what y'all are doing isn't that at all. By your own admission/phrasing Kamala, one of the strongest contenders, isn't enve as strong as Joe.
    It mostly feels like a type of the "poisoning the well" falacy.
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  2. #17682
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    The "contention" about his age is not "if he kicks the bucket." Probably. As others have pointed out, unless that specific voter had a huge problem with Harris being president (in which case having her be the name on the ticket instead wouldn't help) the transition would be rather straightforward and has happened in the past. Meaning the only contention at that point would be "well I don't want a president where that might happen." And what with their ages being so close, the only thing Trump "has" over that is that he loudly inarticulately rambles instead of quietly mumbling, so it apparently gives Trump the appearance of "being more youthful and strapping" and is therefore seemingly less likely to die in office, despite every known metric of his health being worse than Biden's.

    The contention for Biden's age seems to be moreso "oh but what if he's so old and impertinent that he leads the country badly and accidentally invades Nova Scotia or something" or "but will he be able to respond if El Salvador invades?" Which... if that's the contention, again, Biden's... his current age... while running the country just as I would expect it to be run into the future, helped by various cabinet members and staffers. Given that's... you know, their job. Again, the only thing that Trump has "in appearance" over this is that his loud, inarticulate ramblings might appear that he can "make self-sufficient, self-directed choices" in case Yellowstone erupts or whatever. Of course, it would only take the revelation that said loud, inarticulate ramblings are exactly that: rambling and inarticulate, just said loudly, to hopefully prove to people that the only choices he can make, no matter how "decisive" they appear, would probably be the wrong ones. Just like last time he was president.


    And then, of course, there are people who don't actually care about Biden's age other than the fact that his mumbling "doesn't make him look electable to people who aren't me, because I was going to vote for him regardless." Which... hopefully, given the notion that no, Biden is not backing down, will go away in time. Certainly hopefully before November when their personal "dislike of the vibes," if broadcasted online in large and droning quantitites, might become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  3. #17683
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Biden is losing in almost all battleground state polls. That's a Huge problem. If you or others have to dismiss the polls the most negative factor hurting Biden is age.
    Uh... no.

    Biden is behind in most polls because of RFK, not because of his age. All those other alternative Democrat candidates are doing even worse than Biden... because the same thing is affecting their numbers, too. But history tells us that support for third-party candidates wanes decidedly before the election.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Oh you mentioned polling. Actually Kamala is polling better than Biden and Biden is the President.
    No... she's not.

    National results from the last few days:



    R.I.P. Democracy


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  4. #17684
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    @Edge, @Endus

    Sorry on phone so mentioning people.

    All three of you realize Biden has to win for this scenario to happen.

    Biden first has to win the election and his age is a Huge problem.

    To take a shortsighted view here, I just want to win the election and who in the next 4 years is making policy.
    Anything else is a bigger problem.

    Would I prefer it if Joe stepped down due to health concerns and named Kamala his successor? Sure. But if he's not going to step down voluntarily, that option's off the table entirely. It isn't worth consideration, because Biden has to be the one to take it. If you challenge him in a fast primary before the conference, I guarantee there'll be enough annoyed/pissed off Biden-loving Dems to split the vote and we're worse off than just letting him run.

    That's why the relevant target here is the non-thinking Democrats who might be convinced by conservative propaganda to not vote because "Biden's, like, old and shit". If you're not gonna vote because of that, you're the problem. You're not a serious person, and that's not a serious position. Wake the fuck up to what's actually happening, rather than swallowing conservative propaganda whole without thinking critically about what you're eating.

    Biden's age isn't a problem. Trying to make it a problem is an attempt to poison the well and convince Democrats to not vote. That only helps Trump and the Republicans; it does nothing to make anything better for Democrats, in the short or long term. So helping the Republicans push their propaganda.

    You're falling for the same propaganda horseshit they tried (successfully!) with Hillary. That you lost an election to that nonsense and are still falling for it is ridiculous. Be better.

    Speaking as someone who thinks Biden's kind of a piece of shit even if he wasn't old as fuck.
    Last edited by Endus; 2024-07-17 at 01:03 AM.


  5. #17685
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Anything else is a bigger problem.

    Would I prefer it if Joe stepped down due to health concerns and named Kamala his successor? Sure. But if he's not going to step down voluntarily, that option's off the table entirely. It isn't worth consideration, because Biden has to be the one to take it. If you challenge him in a fast primary before the conference, I guarantee there'll be enough annoyed/pissed off Biden-loving Dems to split the vote and we're worse off than just letting him run.
    I'm sorry this is illogical thinking. There are no die hard Biden people that will not turn out to vote. To make my argument better there would be more people to rurn out if Biden steps down then not show up.

    Not just targeted at you but I'm lost here that people think this all lies with Biden as if he is this once and life time President. This election is clearly on keeping Trump out. Admittedly I admit I always want to run on policy more than just he opposition party. I believe many can carry out policy which Biden has been okay on, Once more I always push more progressive so will never be satisfied resting on laurels.

    That's why the relevant target here is the non-thinking Democrats who might be convinced by conservative propaganda to not vote because "Biden's, like, old and shit". If you're not gonna vote because of that, you're the problem. You're not a serious person, and that's not a serious position. Wake the fuck up to what's actually happening, rather than swallowing conservative propaganda whole without thinking critically about what you're eating.

    Biden's age isn't a problem. Trying to make it a problem is an attempt to poison the well and convince Democrats to not vote. That only helps Trump and the Republicans; it does nothing to make anything better for Democrats, in the short or long term. So helping the Republicans push their propaganda.
    This is not propaganda this is what people see that Biden is old. Again, I just can't grasp that Biden's age turning off voters is a made up thing. It is legit.

    Once more saying people are not serious. Endus, this is the general electorate here who are not deep in policy. They are going to look at very surface level stuff here such as "can I afford my jalapeno poppers" and "Biden looks really old". Just step aside Joe.

    I should add be more clear that Biden not only looks old but he is slipping. We knock Trump for this and I read about Reagan basically have dementia through his second term. I seriously hate that anytime throughout history that we had to prop up some leader cause they are hiding something. That's king shit, god stuff.

    You're falling for the same propaganda horseshit they tried (successfully!) with Hillary. That you lost an election to that nonsense and are still falling for it is ridiculous. Be better.

    Speaking as someone who thinks Biden's kind of a piece of shit even if he wasn't old as fuck.
    I mean Hillary was a horrible candidate a lot on her. Plus it is different since Hillary was leading and it was a shock that she lost. A true major upset. I guess back to it's what the general electorate perceive here since they will decide the election.

    I will just end with 2 things here:

    1) Biden is being the most selfish a-hole right now by staying in.
    2) Biden can win on many issues, mainly that people don't want Trump. Back to Biden that he can take him out as the big factor that I believe would help improve in beating Trump.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  6. #17686
    Titan Captain N's Avatar
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    Getting big "But Her Emails" energy here.....
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

    I watch them fight and die in the name of freedom. They speak of liberty and justice, but for whom? -Ratonhnhaké:ton (Connor Kenway)

  7. #17687
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    Getting big "But Her Emails" energy here.....
    I don't know what this is about? You do understand her emails is a Big factor in taking her down.

    But if you are trying to make an analogy this is not close. The perception of people seeing Hillary hiding something and the seeing a person shuffle around and flub shit is not in same ballpark. Plus once more Hillary was ahead and considered a easy victory until Comey and last week got it with margin of error.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  8. #17688
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    I'm sorry this is illogical thinking. There are no die hard Biden people that will not turn out to vote. To make my argument better there would be more people to rurn out if Biden steps down then not show up.
    That, historically, just does not happen.

    I mean, I don't understand how you can simultaneously say that people won't not vote if the candidate changes, while also stating that there are too many people who won't vote if the candidate remains the same.

    Like, do you believe people won't skip the vote out of spite or don't you? You can't have it both ways. And again, historically, this favors the incumbent candidate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Not just targeted at you but I'm lost here that people think this all lies with Biden as if he is this once and life time President.
    I don't think anyone thinks this, sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    This is not propaganda this is what people see that Biden is old. Again, I just can't grasp that Biden's age turning off voters is a made up thing. It is legit.
    Nobody is saying it's a "made up thing". We're just saying that you're dramatically overexaggerating it while completely discounting the negative stigma of switching candidates mid-election cycle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Biden is being the most selfish a-hole right now by staying in.
    Source this. From someone whose opinion matters.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  9. #17689
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    That, historically, just does not happen.

    I mean, I don't understand how you can simultaneously say that people won't not vote if the candidate changes, while also stating that there are too many people who won't vote if the candidate remains the same.
    You don't understand voter turnout?

    Simply put likely anyone but a few would sit out an election if Biden stepped aside. They are still going to vote for team blue. If Biden stepped aside there is a better chance that people who would not have voted for him will now turnout.

    It's about turnout. Not having it both ways.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  10. #17690
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    You don't understand voter turnout?

    Simply put likely anyone but a few would sit out an election if Biden stepped aside. They are still going to vote for team blue.
    If they're going to vote blue if he steps aside, then they're going to vote blue if he doesn't.

    Like, this should not be a complicated idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    If Biden stepped aside there is a better chance that people who would not have voted for him will now turnout.
    ...and then you say shit like this, just completely ignoring what you just wrote.

    Good grief.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  11. #17691
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    If they're going to vote blue if he steps aside, then they're going to vote blue if he doesn't.

    Like, this should not be a complicated idea.



    ...and then you say shit like this, just completely ignoring what you just wrote.

    Good grief.
    Jeezus! You understand people who decide elections are the "Independents". When I say people who vote Team Blue are the people who always turnout and vote for their political party. Those are automatics.

    You do understand you have to go out and get votes. Even Trump has to do this. There is no default 52% Democrat voting, 100 percent all of the time.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  12. #17692
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    I don't think anyone thinks this, sorry.
    This is the first time I've seen this sentiment even expressed anywhere, it's wild.

  13. #17693
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    You don't understand voter turnout?

    Simply put likely anyone but a few would sit out an election if Biden stepped aside. They are still going to vote for team blue. If Biden stepped aside there is a better chance that people who would not have voted for him will now turnout.

    It's about turnout. Not having it both ways.
    I'm gonna need to see some real good numbers here to substantiate this point buddy.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  14. #17694
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Jeezus! You understand people who decide elections are the "Independents". When I say people who vote Team Blue are the people who always turnout and vote for their political party. Those are automatics.
    And independents can be scared off by a late-stage withdrawal, too.

    Again, Harris is polling lower than Biden, which indicates that a change would be even more disastrous.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  15. #17695
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    I'm gonna need to see some real good numbers here to substantiate this point buddy.
    You are going to have to see numbers on how the past say 2 now 3 election are in the Independent swing vote? That voter turnout for one side or the other determines elections.

    This is a bad metric but 32% voters are Registered Republicans vs 33% Dems. Reason it's bad is of course 100% of both parties would have to vote 100% of the time and always for their registered party. Doesn't happen. The BIG picture is the other 35% is what we call a toss up.

    So now do you understand this is what we should always talk about is the 35%. That's the real good number.

    Oh and of course only on average past decades around low 60% of all voting age people vote. So exciting or making people turnout is a key. This is where Biden is weak and why he could lose. I'm definitely not saying 100 percent loss for Biden but doesn't help his odds.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  16. #17696
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    I'm sorry this is illogical thinking. There are no die hard Biden people that will not turn out to vote. To make my argument better there would be more people to rurn out if Biden steps down then not show up.

    Not just targeted at you but I'm lost here that people think this all lies with Biden as if he is this once and life time President. This election is clearly on keeping Trump out. Admittedly I admit I always want to run on policy more than just he opposition party. I believe many can carry out policy which Biden has been okay on, Once more I always push more progressive so will never be satisfied resting on laurels.
    Biden's the candidate. The time to choose otherwise was the primary. How is this not understood? Biden was the pick for 2024.

    This is not propaganda this is what people see that Biden is old. Again, I just can't grasp that Biden's age turning off voters is a made up thing. It is legit.

    Once more saying people are not serious. Endus, this is the general electorate here who are not deep in policy. They are going to look at very surface level stuff here such as "can I afford my jalapeno poppers" and "Biden looks really old". Just step aside Joe.

    I should add be more clear that Biden not only looks old but he is slipping. We knock Trump for this and I read about Reagan basically have dementia through his second term. I seriously hate that anytime throughout history that we had to prop up some leader cause they are hiding something. That's king shit, god stuff.
    But her emails.

    You're parroting conservative propaganda. You fell for this in 2016, you're falling for it again.

    I mean Hillary was a horrible candidate a lot on her. Plus it is different since Hillary was leading and it was a shock that she lost. A true major upset. I guess back to it's what the general electorate perceive here since they will decide the election.
    It wasn't a "shock"; once the report came out, she was doomed, and that was a month before the election.

    The reason she was doomed was an electorate that sucked at the teat of conservative propaganda without thinking for themselves.

    That's a condemnation of those voters, not Hillary.

    I will just end with 2 things here:

    1) Biden is being the most selfish a-hole right now by staying in.
    Yeah, screw this.

    Biden won the primary. Yeah, they had a primary this year. The message that Biden was forced on voters is a lie, pushed by conservatives, trying to convince you to not vote. Why are you falling for this shit?

    How is Biden a "selfish a-hole" for not bowing down before bullshit propaganda pushed by his political enemies? Why are you listening to that propaganda and passing it along without engaging your brain to think about it first?

    It's "but her e-mails" all over again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Jeezus! You understand people who decide elections are the "Independents". When I say people who vote Team Blue are the people who always turnout and vote for their political party. Those are automatics.

    You do understand you have to go out and get votes. Even Trump has to do this. There is no default 52% Democrat voting, 100 percent all of the time.
    Citation needed. The middle doesn't exist.

    This data's from 2014, but if the trend has continued (and I think it's clear from rhetoric that it definitely has, if not accelerated), there's no middle mass of Independent voters who swing between the parties;
    https://www.pewresearch.org/politics...erican-public/

    Your choices are "status quo" or "raving christian nationalist fascist insanity" If you "can't pick a side", you're a far-right extremist.

    And I just flat don't believe a significant number of such people actually exist any more.

    What matters is turnout, but all you are doing here is pushing for Democrats to not turn out. You're not helping. You're pushing misinformation and propaganda by the Republicans, to make Biden look bad, and convince Democrats to stay home. If you're not aware you're doing that, that's worse.

    Biden was the pick, by the wide margin of primary voters. That's how this always works. If you're gonna pull "bernie or bust" or "but her emails" type bullshit, you're just working for the Republicans, whether intentionally or because you don't know enough to realize you're being used.


  17. #17697
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Biden's the candidate. The time to choose otherwise was the primary. How is this not understood? Biden was the pick for 2024.
    .

    I have a feeling we are going to go in circles here but one more time.

    Biden is the candidate cause once more he is selfish and not seeing the decline in his health. Hell, to go further he seems to be narcissistic and hell bent on proving people wrong.

    Cmon the primary was a sham. Of all people Endus you thinking the our 2 political primary system is fair is ridiculous. The time to choose was when Biden should have announced after the midterms. so You Know we could have had a primary. No party is going to run against an incumbent. I guess to go further this is on some on the Dems for not seeing this but people claim that the started seeing this only in past few months.

    Why Endus should we just give candidates the default nomination? I'll go further we should always have open primaries.

    But her emails.

    You're parroting conservative propaganda. You fell for this in 2016, you're falling for it again.
    Wait what? I fell for it in 2016? Umm, while I'm not asking you too, but got back to any 2016 thread I was never falling for Hillary propaganda. Didn't like her, cause she was not an progressive but I even gave benefit of doubt she might become more progressive with her speech leading up.

    Also I'm not parroting when every poll shows Biden's age is a big factor.



    It wasn't a "shock"; once the report came out, she was doomed, and that was a month before the election.

    The reason she was doomed was an electorate that sucked at the teat of conservative propaganda without thinking for themselves.

    That's a condemnation of those voters, not Hillary.
    Here again I don't know how much we want to rehash 2016 but Hillary was a bad candidate on her own. She of course had a lot of right wing, 20 years of the bad lady. This is the right wing of our nation. I mean I hate it but people eat that crap up.


    Yeah, fuck all of this.

    1> Biden won the primary. Yeah, they had a primary this year. The message that Biden was forced on voters is a lie, pushed by conservatives, trying to convince you to not vote. Why are you falling for this shit?

    How is Biden a "selfish a-hole" for not bowing down before bullshit propaganda pushed by his political enemies? Why are you listening to that propaganda and passing it along without engaging your brain to think about it first?

    It's "but her e-mails" all over again
    This is the hill I will definitely stand on the most. Yes Biden is very selfish and as all mentioned he just does not want to let it go. He is all that is bad in politics in that an old boomer who does not want to give up power. The old boomer, if he wasn't senile wouldn't be as bad but he is.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  18. #17698
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    Biden is the candidate cause once more he is selfish and not seeing the decline in his health.
    Say it with me:

    Biden. Still. Leads. All. Democrat. Candidates. In. The. Polls.

    Your head-canon about this all being a selfish, narcissistic campaign is just counter to reality.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  19. #17699
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Say it with me:

    Biden. Still. Leads. All. Democrat. Candidates. In. The. Polls.

    Your head-canon about this all being a selfish, narcissistic campaign is just counter to reality.
    So now we include polls or don't. Many were saying polls don't matter right now, but now they do. Listen I don't talk about polls cause yea its a long time and accuracy.
    Not poo-pooing you coming at me with the polls. Just stating.

    But you do understand that Biden is President and should if anything have large leads in these polls which he doesn't. That's a bad sign. Now that we are bringing polls into the mix I see polls with Harris head to head with Biden v Trump. Which you can easily conclude that another candidate who is not even the President or leader of the party fighting neck and neck. It's bad for Biden.

    You blind loyalty and faith in Biden is what Trumpers would say. Look in the mirror.
    "Buh dah DEMS"

  20. #17700
    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
    You blind loyalty and faith in Biden is what Trumpers would say. Look in the mirror.
    We (well, I, but I imagine I'm not alone in this) view Joe as the best strategic choice, so do a fuckin lot of people, for a whole host of reasons. It's not that we back Joe because "He's Joe! He'll fix everything! Only him! Once in a lifetime POTUS" or whatever other weird stuff you come up with, but because he's both done just fine and remains the best option.

    Why do we react negatively to SENILE JOE from leftists? Because it's not only very untrue (nobody is denying he's hit or miss, but y'all love to ignore the times where he hits), but it's actively working against the goal of keeping Donald Trump out of office. If there was a strong and compelling alternative, one who was head and shoulders polling far above Joe and had at least similar policies across the board (not a terribly tough ask), I doubt you'd see opposition from many of us in this thread.

    That you seem unable to understand that difference is...concerning.
    Last edited by Edge-; 2024-07-17 at 03:08 AM.

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