Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[PhaelixWW]

But you do understand that Biden is President and should if anything have large leads in these polls which he doesn't. That's a bad sign.

But imagining that some other Democrat candidate would be faring better when confronted by a third-party ex-Democrat candidate is just fucking ludicrous, especially when bolstered by the polling results that indicate as much.

Now that we are bringing polls into the mix I see polls with Harris head to head with Biden v Trump. Which you can easily conclude that another candidate who is not even the President or leader of the party fighting neck and neck. It's bad for Biden.

"Bad for Biden" wouldn't translate to "good for another Democrat candidate after his withdrawal" though, which you continue stubbornly insist, despite polling, despite history, despite common sense.

You're blatantly ignore the key facts that 1) other Democrats poll worse than Biden, and 2) the polling is being skewed by mid-election-cycle third-party support, which, again, historically, tends to disappear once the election nears. And that skew is quite demonstrably affecting the other Democrats being polled, too.

You blind loyalty and faith in Biden is what Trumpers would say. Look in the mirror.

The fact that you continue to imply that I have "blind loyalty and faith" in Biden just shows that you're wildly out of touch with reality. Nothing I have said, pretty much ever, suggests anything resembling that. I'm far more anti-Trump than pro-Biden. Biden's a decent candidate, and the fact that his VP is a decent candidate in her own right reassures me about concerns regarding Biden's age. But Trump is a threat to democracy in this country.

And right now you're effectively stumping for Trump, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Paranoid Android]

See, this is the kinda stuff that makes it hard to take you seriously.

We view Joe as the best strategic choice, so do a fuckin lot of people, for a whole host of reasons. It's not that we back Joe because "He's Joe! He'll fix everything! Only him! Once in a lifetime POTUS" or whatever other weird stuff you come up with, but because he's both done just fine and remains the best option.

Why do we react negatively to SENILE JOE from leftists? Because it's not only very untrue (nobody is denying he's hit or miss, , but it's actively working against the goal of keeping Donald Trump out of office. If there was a strong and compelling alternative, one who was head and shoulders polling far above Joe and had at least similar policies across the board (not a terribly tough ask), I doubt you'd see opposition from many of us in this thread.

.

Plain and simple I see that Biden's age is a major liability and he should step aside which is a best chance of Dems winning. I'm being more I guess blindly loyal to wanting the Dems to win.

I don't know what "a lot of people see Joe as best strategic choice" when once more we are talking about the general electorate who vote on their feeling and seeing old Joe turns them off.

The once and lifetime is what I describe as a President with such a clear popularity that the election would be heavily in his favor. The pessimist in me says this may never happen again.

You understand I have stated and you replied to some of these that it's not about policy. We are political nerds on a MMO website. We love it. The people who will actually decide will be their wallet and right now Biden's age. Eliminate one.

but y'all love to ignore the times where he hits)

I hope this is a general statement but I have always acknowledged his policy and I directly spoken to you on this that my criticism will always be for more Left policies, such as the Build Back Better. Great! But more Progressive, more Left.

That you seem unable to understand that difference is...concerning

I understand a big factor that should be eliminated is the old, senile person stepping aside. Nothing wrong with that.

[gondrin]

But he talks slow and milk is more expensive so fuck him.

Please, he is old. OLD!!!! He has random senior moments and might as well as consider him the devil for his heresy for being OLD!!!!

/s

[Endus]

Cmon the primary was a sham. Of all people Endus you thinking the our 2 political primary system is fair is ridiculous.

It's an incompetent shitshow built by idiots.

It's also the only alternative you have, and complaining about its problems in the middle of an election to push people away from participating in that election is not helpful. Reforming the system is a discussion for after the elections.

The time to choose was when Biden should have announced after the midterms. so You Know we could have had a primary. No party is going to run against an incumbent. I guess to go further this is on some on the Dems for not seeing this but people claim that the started seeing this only in past few months.

You did have a primary. What is this revisionist nonsense? The primary race ended June 8 this year. Biden won 87% of the vote.

This is what I mean by pushing conservative propaganda. Do you seriously not know there was a primary, that ran for months? Or are you lying for some reason, right to my face? I'm Canadian, and I know the Democrats had a primary, dude. It wasn't a "sham", Biden won by a huge margin. Stop lying to people about the facts of reality, dude.

[Captain N]

Please, he is old. OLD!!!! He has random senior moments and might as well as consider him the devil for his heresy for being OLD!!!!

/s

This is what came to mind when I read that...

[Edge-]

I understand a big factor that should be eliminated is the old, senile person stepping aside. Nothing wrong with that.

I mean, at some point are you just gonna put on the red cap?

[Sunseeker]

You are going to have to see numbers on how the past say 2 now 3 election are in the Independent swing vote? That voter turnout for one side or the other determines elections.

This is a bad metric but 32% voters are Registered Republicans vs 33% Dems. Reason it's bad is of course 100% of both parties would have to vote 100% of the time and always for their registered party. Doesn't happen. The BIG picture is the other 35% is what we call a toss up.

So now do you understand this is what we should always talk about is the 35%. That's the real good number.

Oh and of course only on average past decades around low 60% of all voting age people vote. So exciting or making people turnout is a key. This is where Biden is weak and why he could lose. I'm definitely not saying 100 percent loss for Biden but doesn't help his odds.

Yes, I am going to have to see some real numbers there friend. I'm sure as hell not taking your word for anything, especially when your argument is underpinned with, in your own words, "a bad metric".

[Endus]

If there was a strong and compelling alternative, one who was head and shoulders polling far above Joe and had at least similar policies across the board (not a terribly tough ask), I doubt you'd see opposition from many of us in this thread.

That you seem unable to understand that difference is...concerning.

Like, if AOC had run in the primary, and spanked Biden, and was now the candidate, I'd be dancing. Great news.

That didn't happen, and we've got to deal with the reality we're living in, not the fantasies of what we wish were true instead.

I'm not fan of Biden (nor was I of Hillary, in 2016). I still would've voted for her then, and would vote for Biden now, were I American, and it's not even a question. I call into question the ethics and decency of any voter who wouldn't. Not because they're awesome, but because the only alternative available is Trump and Project 2025's fascist regime. And if that doesn't frighten you enough to vote Biden to stop it, you're either completely disconnected from reality, or you've got a MAGA hat in your closet and you're cosplaying as a leftist here.

[Paranoid Android]

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You're blatantly ignore the key facts that 1) other Democrats poll worse than Biden, and 2) the polling is being skewed by mid-election-cycle third-party support, which, again, historically, tends to disappear once the election nears. And that skew is quite demonstrably affecting the other Democrats being polled, too.

Five Thirty Eight, the aggregate pollster shows Biden and Harris competitive so idk where you get the "worse" from. The caveat here is Biden is the incumbent so should be crushing other Democrats. He is not.

[gondrin]

I understand a big factor that should be eliminated is the old, senile person stepping aside. Nothing wrong with that.

So, which one because both are old and, from all the video footage of them both, they could both be senile so, which one?

[Edge-]

Like, if AOC had run in the primary, and spanked Biden, and was now the candidate, I'd be dancing. Great news.

I mean...that'd be pretty dope, I'd have absolutely zero complaints if this was reality.

[PhaelixWW]

Plain and simple I see that Biden's age is a major liability and he should step aside which is a best chance of Dems winning. I'm being more I guess blindly loyal to wanting the Dems to win.

You're just blindly wrong about it being the best chance for the Democrats to win.

I don't know what "a lot of people see Joe as best strategic choice" when once more we are talking about the general electorate who vote on their feeling and seeing old Joe turns them off.

Says who? The polls certainly don't. You keep saying your personal feels like they're universally reciprocated by Democrat voters. But they're objectively not.

So who's being narcissistic now?

The once and lifetime is what I describe as a President with such a clear popularity that the election would be heavily in his favor. The pessimist in me says this may never happen again.

Forever is a long time, but I would agree that it seems unlikely in this day and age of information echo-chambers.

I understand a big factor that should be eliminated is the old, senile person stepping aside. Nothing wrong with that.

But you're ignoring the fairly established real-world consequences of such an action. You think it's better, not based on any measurable rubric, but simply because you want to.

[gondrin]

This is what came to mind when I read that...

I swear that is how people are acting right now. Like it just randomly happened one day and they were completely shocked to find out that Biden was old.

[Paranoid Android]

Like, if AOC had run in the primary, and spanked Biden, and was now the candidate, I'd be dancing. Great news.

That didn't happen, and we've got to deal with the reality we're living in, not the fantasies of what we wish were true instead.

I'm not fan of Biden (nor was I of Hillary, in 2016). I still would've voted for her then, and would vote for Biden now, were I American, and it's not even a question. I call into question the ethics and decency of any voter who wouldn't. Not because they're awesome, but because the only alternative available is Trump and Project 2025's fascist regime. And if that doesn't frighten you enough to vote Biden to stop it, you're either completely disconnected from reality, or you've got a MAGA hat in your closet and you're cosplaying as a leftist here.

Endus, the rule of thumb is you stay in line and don't upset the status quo. Of course nobody was going to run against an incumbent and which is it why it is ALL on Biden to step down.

It's no fantasy of finding another candidate at the convention. Put the person on the ballot and campaign against Trump while talking about Biden's policies and hopefully progressive policies going forward.

[PhaelixWW]

Five Thirty Eight, the aggregate pollster shows Biden and Harris competitive so idk where you get the "worse" from. The caveat here is Biden is the incumbent so should be crushing other Democrats. He is not.

And yet... he still is the incumbent, and he is still leading, even if just slightly, over Harris. Do I need to repost those graphics from 538?

[Paranoid Android]

So, which one because both are old and, from all the video footage of them both, they could both be senile so, which one?

You don't get that Trump's age, his senility and being a flat out moron does not effect the voters as much as Biden. Trump for some reason gets a pass.

[Endus]

Endus, the rule of thumb is you stay in line and don't upset the status quo. Of course nobody was going to run against an incumbent and which is it why it is ALL on Biden to step down.

People did run against Biden. So I don't know why you're asking me to entertain a delusional fantasy that's disconnected from the actual reality that actually happened.

You're trying to manufacture an entirely fictional alt-history of what's happened over the last 7-8 months. It's bananas.

[Paranoid Android]

And yet... he still is the incumbent, and he is still leading, even if just slightly, over Harris. Do I need to repost those graphics from 538?

That's not a dunk. When you are the incumbent you should be leading by much more.

[Edge-]

You don't get that Trump's age, his senility and being a flat out moron does not effect the voters as much as Biden. Trump for some reason gets a pass.

rofl you just can't stop yourself

[Paranoid Android]

People did run against Biden. So I don't know why you're asking me to entertain a delusional fantasy that's disconnected from the actual reality that actually happened.

You're trying to manufacture an entirely fictional alt-history of what's happened over the last 7-8 months. It's bananas.

Oh cmon't Endus. Marianne Williamson and Phillip Dean. This was not an "open primary".

In some rainbow and unicorn world we should at least have open primaries at least for two party system no matter if there is an incumbent. I get it obviously cause neither party wants the hassle and yes the money. But an open primary of say AOC v Biden and AOC pushing Biden more progressive would be awesome, for me.

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rofl you just can't stop yourself

Wait you don't think Trump is not senile? We talked about this a whole 4 years.