Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Sunseeker]

Change is chaos.

No, it isnt. This is Joker-eshe edgelord bullshit.

Change is change. Change can be directed, controlled, guided and moderated. It happens all the time.

Change could be overwhelming, confusing, and contradictory, but it doesnt have to be, especially when we bother to have a plan in place.

Sure, change can be chaotic, but it isnt inherent to its nature that it must be.

[Doomcookie]

No, it isnt. This is Joker-eshe edgelord bullshit.

Change is change. Change can be directed, controlled, guided and moderated. It happens all the time.

Change could be overwhelming, confusing, and contradictory, but it doesnt have to be, especially when we bother to have a plan in place.

Sure, change can be chaotic, but it isnt inherent to its nature that it must be.

Thank you, you nailed something I should have included.

Change is chaos, if people are afraid of it.

[Orange Joe]

Thank you, you nailed something I should have included.

Change is chaos, if people are afraid of it.

I think a better way of putting it is change is chaos if people resist.

[Doomcookie]

I think a better way of putting it is change is chaos if people resist.

Even better. I was thinking the same thing. Addendum the second:

Change is chaos, for the unwilling.

[Xyonai]

Honestly, I'm done discussing the whole topic in general and this is the last thing I say on it.

Democrats either need to:

A -- Rally around Biden and ride him through the campaign. None of this "Another Democrat Lawmaker has come out..." bullshit we're getting in the news daily.

B -- Replace him ASAP. Like, Before Monday. And run with Kamala or whoever if Kamala is willing to be VP again or step aside. I don't care.

The MAIN reason people voted for Biden in 2020 and ousted Trump was because they were tired of the chaos. This bullshit with the Democrats right now is 100% chaos. It needs to be fixed and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

If Democrats can put their candidate forward within the next 72-120 hours, rally around that candidate, support that candidate, and stop with the BS, they will CRUISE to victory short of some major missteps.

People DON'T WANT TRUMP. People DON'T WANT CHAOS.

People want change.

If the current administration is doing nothing but Chaos, people will go for change, even if it is Donald Fuckface von Clownstick Trump.

All this infighting is just making them look disorganized and weak, along with those reports of anonymous dems hand wringing about how it's all doomed and they should just give up.

So yeah, they either need to get Biden to drop now or shut the fuck up and deal with it.

[Draco-Onis]

Even better. I was thinking the same thing. Addendum the second:

Change is chaos, for the unwilling.

I think after the pandemic chaos has become the norm that tends to happen when once in a lifetime things have now become the norm. Trump is a chaos candidate, I think as a society we've become numb to everything, all that really matters is what comes out of the chaos.

[Shadowferal]

Change isn't chaos in this respective.
Bullshit that peddles itself as a positive.

[Kaleredar]

I think after the pandemic chaos has become the norm that tends to happen when once in a lifetime things have now become the norm. Trump is a chaos candidate, I think as a society we've become numb to everything, all that really matters is what comes out of the chaos.

Chaos as "the state of things" is an unfortunate side effect of electing dumb asses like Trump, or being apathetic to his presence.


I realize that yes, Trump is himself a side effect of bigger underlying issues. But letting the symptoms run wild doesn't address the root issue any more, and Trump becoming president in 2016 had abject, demonstrable results in making things worse and more chaotic.

[masterhorus8]

Chaos as "the state of things" is an unfortunate side effect of electing dumb asses like Trump, or being apathetic to his presence.


I realize that yes, Trump is himself a side effect of bigger underlying issues. But letting the symptoms run wild doesn't address the root issue any more, and Trump becoming president in 2016 had abject, demonstrable results in making things worse and more chaotic.

Especially when you consider that the orange shitstain helped make COVID worse for the US.

[Kaleredar]

Especially when you consider that the orange shitstain helped make COVID worse for the US.

COVID, horrible economic policies, Supreme Court takeover and their subsequent rulings, his status as a criminal, the list goes on.


Even if Hillary had been a “whatever” president… like holy crap, can you imagine how much more sane the world would seem and feel today?

[Draco-Onis]

Chaos as "the state of things" is an unfortunate side effect of electing dumb asses like Trump, or being apathetic to his presence.


I realize that yes, Trump is himself a side effect of bigger underlying issues. But letting the symptoms run wild doesn't address the root issue any more, and Trump becoming president in 2016 had abject, demonstrable results in making things worse and more chaotic.

As you have said Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem which is pretty much world wide. I think the issue is on the left, I know the right wing is filled with crazies and everything but when the left takes over they don't do enough of a course correction that people feel that things have changed. The effect of several financial crashes in a short period of time, rampant inequality has made people desperate and con men like Trump get the opening because traditional institutions are corrupt and aren't addressing everyday issues.

[Sunseeker]

As you have said Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem which is pretty much world wide. I think the issue is on the left, I know the right wing is filled with crazies and everything but when the left takes over they don't do enough of a course correction that people feel that things have changed. The effect of several financial crashes in a short period of time, rampant inequality has made people desperate and con men like Trump get the opening because traditional institutions are corrupt and aren't addressing everyday issues.

I seriously cannot roll my eyes hard enough at this. Like, I just tried, and Im pretty sure I saw the inside of my eye sockets, but couldnt quite achieve a 360 degree rotation.

The right fucks around, the world finds out, and it is the lefts fault for not fixing it enough?

Get the fuck out of here with that shit. Shame on you.

[Malkiah]

As you have said Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem which is pretty much world wide. I think the issue is on the left, I know the right wing is filled with crazies and everything but when the left takes over they don't do enough of a course correction that people feel that things have changed. The effect of several financial crashes in a short period of time, rampant inequality has made people desperate and con men like Trump get the opening because traditional institutions are corrupt and aren't addressing everyday issues.

that's not a problem with "the left" (especially in the US) that's a problem with there not being a left (especially in the US).

the US has no political left. full stop. end of discussion.
the US has a proper and respectable conservative party, and a theistic oligarchical death cult party.
there is no progressive voice in US politics, there doesn't seem to really be much of one in most of western europe either.

the problem is that all the easy fights are over, all the fights that you can safely have in modern western society that don't interfere with the status quo of a class based hierarchical structure that systematically funnels maximal resources into the possession of as few people as possible.
race issues are over legally speaking, gender issues are over legally speaking, suffrage is over legally speaking, etc etc.
there's nothing left to really have a fight about within the confines of policy that don't start fucking with billionaires getting even more money - the big fights left are things like poverty/homelessness/etc, access to medical care, quality of life in general, the environment... all shit that directly impacts the ability of obscenely rich people to get even more obscenely rich.

"the system" is designed and maintained specifically to enforce this paradigm.
(by "the system" i mean basically the totality of western civilization as we know it today)
nothing from within the system will ever rise to challenge the operation and continuation of the system, and since there is no way to become obscenely wealthy that doesn't involve you being a sociopath in the first place, there will never be a progressive or notably radical left wing billionaire willing to fund a grass roots movements ala the kochs.

anyways... i agree trump is nothing but the white head on top of the acne that is the real problem with western society, but i disagree entirely with any claim that the reason this issue isn't being resolved is because of "the left".

[Draco-Onis]

that's not a problem with "the left" (especially in the US) that's a problem with there not being a left (especially in the US).

the US has no political left. full stop. end of discussion.
the US has a proper and respectable conservative party, and a theistic oligarchical death cult party.
there is no progressive voice in US politics, there doesn't seem to really be much of one in most of western europe either.

the problem is that all the easy fights are over, all the fights that you can safely have in modern western society that don't interfere with the status quo of a class based hierarchical structure that systematically funnels maximal resources into the possession of as few people as possible.
race issues are over legally speaking, gender issues are over legally speaking, suffrage is over legally speaking, etc etc.
there's nothing left to really have a fight about within the confines of policy that don't start fucking with billionaires getting even more money - the big fights left are things like poverty/homelessness/etc, access to medical care, quality of life in general, the environment... all shit that directly impacts the ability of obscenely rich people to get even more obscenely rich.

"the system" is designed and maintained specifically to enforce this paradigm.
(by "the system" i mean basically the totality of western civilization as we know it today)
nothing from within the system will ever rise to challenge the operation and continuation of the system, and since there is no way to become obscenely wealthy that doesn't involve you being a sociopath in the first place, there will never be a progressive or notably radical left wing billionaire willing to fund a grass roots movements ala the kochs.

anyways... i agree trump is nothing but the white head on top of the acne that is the real problem with western society, but i disagree entirely with any claim that the reason this issue isn't being resolved is because of "the left".

I agree with what you say but I don't have any other way to address the other side than calling it the left even though it's not really left wing. The same is going on in the EU where you have political parties that used to be labeled as left being hollowed out and turning into right wing lite.

[Malkiah]

I agree with what you say but I don't have any other way to address the other side than calling it the left even though it's not really left wing. The same is going on in the EU where you have political parties that used to be labeled as left being hollowed out and turning into right wing lite.

fair enough - semantics is a tricky business on the internet, especially when discussing politics and ideological labels.

[Sunseeker]

I agree with what you say but I don't have any other way to address the other side than calling it the left even though it's not really left wing. The same is going on in the EU where you have political parties that used to be labeled as left being hollowed out and turning into right wing lite.

Who cares what its called? You cant shit on the carpet and get mad your sister didnt clean it up fast enough not to stain.

The fault lies squarely on whoever is shitting on the rug. But because fundamentally, it is easier to shit kn the rug and bitch about your sister than it is to be a responsible adult and use the loo, messes will always get made bigger and faster than they can be cleaned up.

[Endus]

Who cares what its called? You cant shit on the carpet and get mad your sister didnt clean it up fast enough not to stain.

The fault lies squarely on whoever is shitting on the rug. But because fundamentally, it is easier to shit kn the rug and bitch about your sister than it is to be a responsible adult and use the loo, messes will always get made bigger and faster than they can be cleaned up.

What's really lacking is holding those right-wingers to account for the harm they do. Forcing them to acknowledge their ideology is intentionally predicated on lies and hate and economic oppression of the workers, and pretty much nothing else. Letting their bullshit fly without calling it out for the bigoted fuckery that it is allows it to propagate and gives them cover to hide behind. Their ideology deserves to be universally reviled the same way that Nazism is, because it's really not that fuckin' different.

And before anyone tries to clown in here and claim I'm talking about censorship or some bullshit, we're talking about holding people to a standard of honesty. If that's objectionable to you, you're proving my point for me.

[Captain N]

And before anyone tries to clown in here and claim I'm talking about censorship or some bullshit, we're talking about holding people to a standard of honesty. If that's objectionable to you, you're proving my point for me.

How do you do that in the real world? Like Ive mentioned previously these folks are dangerously stupid and violent. I've personally had someone threaten to send me back to my wife in a box for challenging their political views. You can't hold them to a standard of honesty when they're so far detached from reality that they're willing to kill you over their delusions.

[Endus]

How do you do that in the real world? Like Ive mentioned previously these folks are dangerously stupid and violent. I've personally had someone threaten to send me back to my wife in a box for challenging their political views. You can't hold them to a standard of honesty when they're so far detached from reality that they're willing to kill you over their delusions.

In that specific case, that's a death threat, and it should be deemed actionable under the law as such. Felony assault charges and prison time for that shit. Even if it's over the Internet. If it's a case where they can't be charged because it's completely unbelievable as an actual threat, your response should be open and insulting mockery and continued challenging of those views. And if it's credible, it should land the threatener in a jail cell. That's how this should work.

But more broadly, don't let journalists implicitly endorse false claims without challenge. If someone's being interviewed or you're showing a speech, you fact-check that shit live. You cut mikes and demand retractions before you move further. If someone pushes bigotry or fascism, you call it bigotry or fascism. To their faces. And you keep that up, consistently, forever. This isn't a temporary solution until it settles down; this is a fundamental ethical obligation for journalists. While this isn't a case of legal consequences, it should be akin to a lawyer violating legal ethics; the Bar cracks down and potentially removes your license to practice. Most professions work a similar way; there's an ethics code and board and you get kicked if you breach those ethics and can't do that job any more. Same should apply for journalists.

And again; this isn't a "no right-wing views". It's a "hold yourself to honest representation" standard. I'd be as opposed to left-wingers preaching nonsense claims, too. That's just not really the prevailing problem in this moment in history.

[gondrin]

I'm using it because there's no real reason to replace him. Why would I entertain the argument when there's no actual, legitimate reason?



Gotta tell ya, if you didn't know Biden was old and has long had a stutter before the debate, you're not very well-informed in the first place. Why are these reasons for concern, again?



Then maybe focus on the actual problem, incompetent Democratic voters, rather than what's not a problem, Biden?

It's the "but her emails" all over again. Republicans found a nothingburger point, drove it home, and dumbasses fall for it. That was never a problem with Clinton, it's a problem with Democrat voters being gullible idiots.

Put literally anyone else in the spot and there'll be a new "problem". AOC? Too young and inexperienced. Bernie? Too old and socialist. Warren? Too female and socialist. Harris? Not white enough, though they'll phrase it more carefully, but it's what they'll mean. Buttigieg? Too gay, same deal as Harris. And so on. This was all off the top of my head, it's all dumb as fuck, and Democrats will fall for it all over again, because they're not paying attention. The electorate is more of a problem than the candidates.

Yep. They are literally doing all the work for the Republicans instead of saying "Yep, he is old. Old people have the occasional senior moment. We will still stand behind or besides him because we trust him to do the job we hired him to do."

But no, Dems literally will do what they always do, just shit the bed and complain when it starts to stink.

The Democratic party had their chance to replace him a year ago. They could have easily pushed for an actual serious candidate other than the Life Coach that believes in crystal energy or man with boot on head. They could have pushed for Bernie Sanders(who happens to be the same age as Trump), they could have pushed for Beto, they could have pushed for Newsom then.

And literally, voting for Biden IS voting for Harris. So why replace Biden with Harris seeing as she would actively take away votes because there are quite a few people that vote Democrat that are as bigoted as Republicans and would not vote for a woman.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you do that in the real world? Like Ive mentioned previously these folks are dangerously stupid and violent. I've personally had someone threaten to send me back to my wife in a box for challenging their political views. You can't hold them to a standard of honesty when they're so far detached from reality that they're willing to kill you over their delusions.

Most of them are cowards. They talk tough but in the end, won't do a damn thing. Me personally, I give off the vibe that if they want to start something and I have to actively defend myself, they will find out I don't fight fair nor am afraid of using things around me to cause them harm. I turn their "Fuck Your Feelings." right around onto them with the attitude that I really don't care what they think.

If they threatened me with that threat, I would remind them that unless they are at a distance, unless if they are armed and are properly trained, a person can absolutely cover a good distance in a few seconds and very few people can protect from that. I've learned to not be afraid to get hit. I just don't start anything with anyone and try to be as passive as I can be. But I will stand up for myself if needed. And sometimes that means that I will get hit.