1. #18081
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Then Oregon would be essentially the only state in the country where that is true and in my quick google searching while working doesn't even appear to be true for Oregon. One article was an audit of services in Portland done in April of this year.

    Encampments are issues but the ruling is still shit because despite what you are claiming the fact is nationally speaking there is a massive shortage of homeless services. Additional services are frequently underfunded, never funded, or stalled/canceled because of major not in my back yard syndrome. Because everyone agrees we need it just not anywhere near my house! And when there's no services and you criminalize effectively existing outside in public you create another problem. And that's what this ruling effectively did. If you don't have a home it's illegal for you to exist in a public space.
    Even if there were actually enough services in place they tend to be designed to be a painful and inconvenient as legally possible to access.

    So it would be technically true to say there enough resources for services - be have those resources actually been allocated? It could technically be true that the services exist but how accessible are they? Are we taking the words of the politician who doesn't rely on the systems to use them, the worker in the ground floor in charge or executing the system, or the people who have to use the systems? One of the most egregious hurdles a homeless person may face when applying for and accessing services is that they don't have a physical address that exists in a database. That means if they don't have a idea it's that much harder for them to prove who they are to get an Idea, without an idea it's that much harder to access services. They might not have a reliable way to receive correspondence from the government services and there's not enough social workers, resources allocated to social workers to help the people out.


    Retouching on my initial statement, there are those ok power who believe to their core that receiving charity (or taking advantage of any government program) should be hard and painful in proportion to how desperate you are.

  2. #18082
    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    Then Oregon would be essentially the only state in the country where that is true and in my quick google searching while working doesn't even appear to be true for Oregon. One article was an audit of services in Portland done in April of this year.

    Encampments are issues but the ruling is still shit because despite what you are claiming the fact is nationally speaking there is a massive shortage of homeless services. Additional services are frequently underfunded, never funded, or stalled/canceled because of major not in my back yard syndrome. Because everyone agrees we need it just not anywhere near my house! And when there's no services and you criminalize effectively existing outside in public, your only option because you have no home and waitlists are insane at most shelters, you create another problem. Now you incur fines and a possible criminal record which makes rectifying your homelessness even harder.
    There is a difference between "shortage of homeless services" versus "shortage in affordable housing". There is a lack of affordable housing in all 50 states. Oregon spends a massive amount of money on homeless services but a significant amount is spent on services other than housing. Both housing and services can be underutilized due to a variety of reasons and people who are chronically homeless will certainly make you aware of these things if you work with them. I have seen people turn down services/shelter due to not wanting to get drug tested, not wanting to give up a pet or not having anyone to take care of a pet, roadblocks with employment due to a criminal record, etc. One homeless man I worked with had a long history of not feeling safe living inside due to a trauma history so it was a lot of time and effort getting him to the point of feeling comfortable living in an an apartment. The chronically homeless are often dealing with both addiction issues and mental health issues and in both of those situations they often want to continue living their lifestyle on the street and do not want to change. Nothing short of incarceration/forced treatment will get them to change their behavior.

  3. #18083
    Old God Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    incarceration/forced treatment
    Kind of crazy to list the two as equivalent things. I'm pretty sure that throwing homeless people in jail for being homeless isn't going to help them, especially with the way our prison system is built in the US, and especially in states that have especially horrific prison conditions.

    Maybe if we reformed the prison industrial complex and converted like a third of our prisons into humane rehabilitative housing centers or something...

  4. #18084
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Kind of crazy to list the two as equivalent things. I'm pretty sure that throwing homeless people in jail for being homeless isn't going to help them, especially with the way our prison system is built in the US, and especially in states that have especially horrific prison conditions.

    Maybe if we reformed the prison industrial complex and converted like a third of our prisons into humane rehabilitative housing centers or something...
    People who are homeless exist on a spectrum, there are absolutely people who get to the point of wanting/needing help (sometimes they are there well before homelessness) and then there are people who are staunchly against it/mad at the world/have learned maladaptive ways of survival that cause harm to significant numbers of people around them. Sometimes they do not believe that living any other way is possible. Usually those people end up incarcerated anyway due to a crime they have committed (other than drug use or homelessness). I think that would be the strongest argument against criminalization of homelessness (besides morality/ethics)--that it is redundant and would only hurt those who are obeying laws but are simply homeless. Overall I think more of a hard line stance should be taken by local governments when there is camping in forests due to the massively increased fire risk though.

    We definitely need increased mental health care access and prison reform. More than that I think we need housing reform. It was a century ago that housing/land was dirt cheap and people lived far more sustainably than they do now. There are few parts of the country where people can buy land and build their own cabin without significant oversight. This is due to building codes/permitting processes designed to protect people's safety but I think that things have gone too far. There are cheap and eco-friendly ways to build structures that can last hundreds of years--there are cob homes built in Europe that are nearly a thousand years old for example. Why are we still building with wood? Why is it so difficult to buy land and build a home yourself now? Everything is designed to prop up a very expensive way of living now and it is truly not necessary or even desirable by everyone.

    In relationship to forced treatment...often it does not feel good for either the person getting care or the person giving it most of the time, but it can be an opportunity for a positive experience involving mental health care that can encourage engagement with a provider down the road. It would really depend on the provider creating space for a positive experience to happen even if the person does not want to be there.

  5. #18085
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    That is the one ruling that needed to happen unfortunately. Homeless encampments are intentionally or accidentally setting fires on much of the West Coast. Portland has had an arson problem since Covid, along with a myriad of new issues (increase in violent crime rates, dogs from camps seriously attacking pedestrians, etc) that are at least in part due to the chronically homeless. There are real safety issues happening and offering services/housing has not been an effective solution.

    There are more than enough services out here in OR for those who need them--a small fraction of chronically homeless actually use them.


    Americans are very much like Europeans in that it’s very easy to get them to support fascist bullshit, so long as you mention homeless people first in the same way one mentions Roma or Jewish people in Europe.

    Homelessness is not a personal failing arising from people being too stupid or lazy to live by society’s rules, Mary. What’s next, enforced sterilizations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  6. #18086
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Here is the thing, though.

    If Biden really wanted to accomplish something, he wouldn't have waited 6 months before the election.
    Ok, question for you.

    Who actually makes the policy, laws and regulations? Is it the sitting president or is it one of the other branches?

    At least 1 or more of his policies in that reform plan would actively take something bigger than what even the House and Senate can do. Can you tell me what that is and why?

    I swear, this is why civic classes, much like how to deal with taxes and personal finances should be a mandatory thing taught in school.

  7. #18087
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post


    Americans are very much like Europeans in that it’s very easy to get them to support fascist bullshit, so long as you mention homeless people first in the same way one mentions Roma or Jewish people in Europe.

    Homelessness is not a personal failing arising from people being too stupid or lazy to live by society’s rules, Mary. What’s next, enforced sterilizations?
    I never said that. It is almost entirely societal failing but to absolve people from personal responsibility is ridiculous. But I should have suspected as much from your reply considering you were so offended that you decided to label me a fascist.

  8. #18088
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Yeah, you are done here lol
    time to work on your zingers because they suck and aren't smart.

  9. #18089
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I never said that. It is almost entirely societal failing but to absolve people from personal responsibility is ridiculous.
    You did though, you were just too embarassed to say it directly and were all "it's really such a shame but we don't have a choice except to put the homeless in prison for their own sake", with also a side of victim blaming by putting the responsbility on them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    But I should have suspected as much from your reply considering you were so offended that you decided to label me a fascist.
    It is objectively fascist to put the homeless in prison based on some flimsy, technical pretext of crime - that was literally what authoritarian regimes did all throughout history, put minority demographics including the poor, homeless and destitute into prisons, concentration camps and slums by legislating specifically against them.

    You are the one who is offended that your actions fit the label, it's frankly disgusting how you can spin it as some sort of moral victory on your part.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  10. #18090
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is clearly aspirational, do you that there would be realistic chances of this if he'd rolled it out at the start of his administration?

    Especially before the dozen or so reports of Thomas and Alito forgetting to claim hundreds of thousands in gifts from wealthy buddies who have business in front of the court?

    Before the overturning of Roe turned a lot of people off to the SCOTUS?

    Before the series of hugely unpopular decisions that are leaving both the general public and legal scholars scratching their heads?

    I don't think so. There's public support (42:33)for changes now, and that's only a plurality that came after the years of SCOTUS shenanigans.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Let's put it this way.

    If your argument is that 3 years ago SC reform would have failed, then why do this now? If your going to push for anything as president, you do that when youir favorability is high, not when it's so low that you

    Second. It wasn't like a secret how much gifts (read bribes) SC justices were getting. If I'm a political operative is it that hard to look through the disclosers of my political opponents and their Facebook and the pictures they post publicly?

    No he fucking did not rofl what the fuck is this lol.
    This is your own bubble speaking.

    When you have daily news articles about Trump's wall about signed EO, how he used emergency power to fund the wall, democratic opposition to the wall that showed he was trying. Sure it failed but he showed that he tried to build the wall.

    Compare this to what Biden did (or didn't do) and you can understand why his approval ratings have been lower the Trump. For all of his faults, Trump understands politics.

  11. #18091
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Let's put it this way.

    If your argument is that 3 years ago SC reform would have failed, then why do this now? If your going to push for anything as president, you do that when youir favorability is high, not when it's so low that you

    Second. It wasn't like a secret how much gifts (read bribes) SC justices were getting. If I'm a political operative is it that hard to look through the disclosers of my political opponents and their Facebook and the pictures they post publicly?



    This is your own bubble speaking.

    When you have daily news articles about Trump's wall about signed EO, how he used emergency power to fund the wall, democratic opposition to the wall that showed he was trying. Sure it failed but he showed that he tried to build the wall.

    Compare this to what Biden did (or didn't do) and you can understand why his approval ratings have been lower the Trump. For all of his faults, Trump understands politics.
    So trump tried one thing and failed.

    Biden tried maaany things, succeeded in most, failed at a few.

    And you believe this means Trump fought harder?

  12. #18092
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Trump for all of his faults showed that he fought for the people that voted for him.
    If by "fought for" you mean, "tried to get killed"

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    a guy that suggested drinking bleach to cure covid.
    Oh, I guess you did mean that
    /s

  13. #18093
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I never said that. It is almost entirely societal failing but to absolve people from personal responsibility is ridiculous. But I should have suspected as much from your reply considering you were so offended that you decided to label me a fascist.
    Ignoring the fact I specifically said "it’s very easy to get [people] to support fascist bullshit" and didn't call any one individual a fascist, what you aren't getting is that failing to enact violence on unhoused persons isn't absolving anyone of personal responsibility. And what you are advocating is manifestly an act of violence.

    A lot of urban liberals like yourself have this conception of a homeless camp being cleared as like a last call at a restaurant when in reality it is a physically violent affair that actually makes it significantly more difficult for people to escape cyclical poverty. There are countless instances of people having birth certificates, social security cards, and other things being seized or lost during a camp clearance, and that isn't even getting into the more banal stuff like missing glasses and dentures, or the more heartbreaking things like the loss of pets.

    That's the sort of thing you're cheerleading. You can dress it up in dinner party terms like 'oh, it's so unfortunate that we have to do this necessary evil' to your heart's content, but it remains fascist bullshit derived from a perception of homeless people less as a category of persons who society is failing and more as a form of pest that you and the other west coast liberals want gotten rid of because it makes the drive to Starbucks more unpleasant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #18094
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    A lot of urban liberals like yourself have this conception of a homeless camp being cleared as like a last call at a restaurant when in reality it is a physically violent affair that actually makes it significantly more difficult for people to escape cyclical poverty. There are countless instances of people having birth certificates, social security cards, and other things being seized or lost during a camp clearance, and that isn't even getting into the more banal stuff like missing glasses and dentures, or the more heartbreaking things like the loss of pets.
    What's worse is when they do it in the freezing winter, like they do here in Seattle sometimes. There have been calls to, at the very least, ban these sweeps during winter months.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  15. #18095
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What's worse is when they do it in the freezing winter, like they do here in Seattle sometimes. There have been calls to, at the very least, ban these sweeps during winter months.
    Yeah, honestly it’s been very interesting taking a step back and critically looking at how most Americans regardless of political affiliation are habituated to treating certain categories as subhuman.

    Homelessness, to most people, is an aesthetic offense resulting from personal preference. That viewpoint is necessary because it’s uncomfortable admitting how close most people are to being on the street themselves, as the alternative is countenancing things line “hey maybe real estate shouldnt be a market”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  16. #18096
    Make homelessness a crime, have fines doled out to those that can't afford a home, jail them for lack of payment in a nice for-profit jail...and have a cheap labor force waiting...
    “But this isn’t the end. I promise you, this is not the end, and we have to regroup and we have to continue to fight and continue to work day in and day out to create the better society for our children, for this world, for this country, that we know is possible.” ~~Jon Stewart

  17. #18097
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Trump for all of his faults showed that he fought for the people that voted for him
    Didn't take you long to reach your inevitable conclusion of praising Trump in some way. If only your posting pattern wasn't so obvious!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomcookie View Post
    Remember, there is no point in trying to pander to people who will never be happy. Certain posters make this very clear.
    Oh, they're that way on purpose. There are maybe 3/4 posters here that all have the same motif in their posting. They will never be happy with Democrats for a very specific reason.

  18. #18098
    Quote Originally Posted by En Sabah Nur View Post
    Didn't take you long to reach your inevitable conclusion of praising Trump in some way. If only your posting pattern wasn't so obvious!


    Oh, they're that way on purpose. There are maybe 3/4 posters here that all have the same motif in their posting. They will never be happy with Democrats for a very specific reason.
    Blue maga mindset has so many issues. I can look at things objectvly and see that Trump has his strong points.

    It's time for you to move out of your own bubble.

  19. #18099
    Quote Originally Posted by En Sabah Nur View Post
    Didn't take you long to reach your inevitable conclusion of praising Trump in some way. If only your posting pattern wasn't so obvious!


    Oh, they're that way on purpose. There are maybe 3/4 posters here that all have the same motif in their posting. They will never be happy with Democrats for a very specific reason.
    I know people like to bring up the Horseshoe Theory, but this actually feels more deliberate. Any progressive America would be an idiot to not go out and vote for the Democrats. Like it or not, there's only two viable options for them. Pick the party who only support half of your whims, or support the party who would just as soon see you beaten to death in the street, as let any of your policies exist.

    If all they do, is whine about Democrats, and actively root against them... then treat them like Republicans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Blue maga mindset has so many issues. I can look at things objectvly and see that Trump has his strong points.

    It's time for you to move out of your own bubble.
    If you consider demagoguery to be a strong point, that's an odd take.

    Will you be voting for the Democrat nominee in November?

  20. #18100
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Blue maga mindset has so many issues. I can look at things objectvly and see that Trump has his strong points.

    It's time for you to move out of your own bubble.
    This feels like projection from someone wrapped in a "must always complain about democrats!" bubble. I'm absolutely able to look at things objectively. I even have the ability to give Trump his kudos for Operation Warp Speed. But I also have the ability to point out literally everything else he fucked up regarding COVID, including everything that came before and after Operation Warp Speed.

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