Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Flarelaine]

There's not a single universe where Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi would think it politically expedient to threaten to have Congress ouster the Democrat President with a vote of no-confidence in the leadup to the election.

Nevermind the fact that doing so wouldn't actually disqualify Biden as a candidate, anyway.

The whole suggestion that they threatened Biden with the 25th is just a MAGA wet dream fanfic.

The only possible way Kamala Harris becomes the new Democrat candidate is with Biden's approval.

Definitely. I was just answering the claim that "it's not a vote by Congress". Permanently removing a President this way will probably require a vote there.

[Paranoid Android]

NEW: Elon Musk's pro-Trump super PAC just awarded $1 million to registered voters in Michigan & Wisconsin. This comes one day after news broke that DOJ warned the PAC that its sweepstakes may be illegal. They mysteriously did not name a winner yesterday, but they named 2 today.

https://x.com/MarshallCohen/status/1...ScAvnsqrw&s=19

Appointing Merrick Garland has been perhaps the worse of Biden.

As stated, if Dems going to keep playing the game with civility, they are going to get crushed. Garland was Republican light when up for Supreme Court and Biden makes him AG.

The laughable part is asking Musk nicely. A non billionaire would never get a "please stop".

[Elegiac]

https://x.com/MarshallCohen/status/1...ScAvnsqrw&s=19

Appointing Merrick Garland has been perhaps the worse of Biden.

As stated, if Dems going to keep playing the game with civility, they are going to get crushed. Garland was Republican light when up for Supreme Court and Biden makes him AG.

The laughable part is asking Musk nicely. A non billionaire would never get a "please stop".

Do you have a setting that isn’t “bad thing happened, how can I make this the Democrats fault”? Just curious.

[Paranoid Android]

Do you have a setting that isn’t “bad thing happened, how can I make this the Democrats fault”? Just curious.

Do you have a setting of head in the sand. My goodness Garland has been feckless in many areas, namely not pressing Jan 6 until two and half years later.

In this case the Garland not bringing the hammer is letting elmo continue. Who else to blame?

I can't people like you are so thin skinned, you can't take criticism.

[Benggaul]

Do you have a setting that isn’t “bad thing happened, how can I make this the Democrats fault”? Just curious.

Nope. "Buh dah DEMS!" is the bulk of their posts in this forum. Every once in a while they'll concede that "GOP bad...but because Dems allow them to be BAD!"

[Paranoid Android]

Nope. "Buh dah DEMS!" is the bulk of their posts in this forum. Every once in a while they'll concede that "GOP bad...but because Dems allow them to be BAD!"

You are such a joke.

I have been posting on here 8 years plus with easily 99% of my posts shitting on the Trump and Republicans.

My criticism of Dems is barely asking to move left on progressive policies so they can win.

As far as you having to defend Garland in sending a letter (oh noes!). This is pretty frickin big that a billionaire is trying to buy votes. Yet your offended by me pointing this out.

Edit: In the case of civility, I don't mind back and forth if people disagree with my opinions. Yet people who take it personal for some stupid political party is strange.

[Valdhammer]

You are such a joke.

I have been posting on here 8 years plus with easily 99% of my posts shitting on the Trump and Republicans.

My criticism of Dems is barely asking to move left on progressive policies so they can win.

As far as you having to defend Garland in sending a letter (oh noes!). This is pretty frickin big that a billionaire is trying to buy votes. Yet your offended by me pointing this out.

Edit: In the case of civility, I don't mind back and forth if people disagree with my opinions. Yet people who take it personal for some stupid political party is strange.

I don’t disagree with you on Garland generally. But think through what happens if the DOJ indicts Musk 2 weeks before the election on a charge that is very much in the gray zone. It probably blows up the election because it gives Musk and Trump the ability to claim political persecution. Then, if Trump wins it will get tossed out anyway. It’s a hell of a gamble for a charge that is at best 50/50 to stick.

[Endus]

I don’t disagree with you on Garland generally. But think through what happens if the DOJ indicts Musk 2 weeks before the election on a charge that is very much in the gray zone. It probably blows up the election because it gives Musk and Trump the ability to claim political persecution. Then, if Trump wins it will get tossed out anyway. It’s a hell of a gamble for a charge that is at best 50/50 to stick.

That makes sense today. How did it make sense 1-3 years ago? Regarding Trump, at least. Musk isn't a political figure, though, and there shouldn't be any hesitations on prosecuting his bullshit.

[Valdhammer]

That makes sense today. How did it make sense 1-3 years ago? Regarding Trump, at least. Musk isn't a political figure, though, and there shouldn't be any hesitations on prosecuting his bullshit.

Like I said, I agree with him about Garland. He’s been soft and ineffective. But I was talking about the latest Musk thing specifically in the post you quoted. I don’t think it’s the craziest thing in the world to let this one go for now. If Harris wins, put a proper AG in and go hard after all the MAGA criminals.

[TACOshake]

Biden is basically the most progressive president in generations. What if he's the last one for another few generations?

A really sad thing about these "black-pilled progressives". What if they poisoned the well so much... any future center-left coalition never looks there way again.
Their constant back stabbing and goal posting for what .. constant threats to with hold their vote <again>. There's no point to cater to their policies if there's no help electorally. Or worse, the constant doomposting to discourage the rest of the coalition.

Biden's legacy will be as one of the most progressive Presidents in modern history, completely weighed down by an intransigent Congress and a media ecosystem that shat on him at every conceivable opportunity.

It's concerning that, real policyworkers have spent years trying to accomplish what Biden got done, and the moment he does it, the entire political ecosystem throws him out on his ass.

And for what? A month and a half of semi-good vibes then a return to doomerism?

[Paranoid Android]

I don’t disagree with you on Garland generally. But think through what happens if the DOJ indicts Musk 2 weeks before the election on a charge that is very much in the gray zone. It probably blows up the election because it gives Musk and Trump the ability to claim political persecution. Then, if Trump wins it will get tossed out anyway. It’s a hell of a gamble for a charge that is at best 50/50 to stick.

Huh? So just let them commit crimes? I mean this is the weakest reason and I'm sorry a cowardly reason of not pressing Musk especially. I don't care when, where Musk commits the crime, prosecute this mofo.

We are making up excuses to let Republicans attack and find any weakness they can to bring on fascism. Also, I'm sorry this is not going to effect voters that a billionaire told to stop at the bare minimum. This would not flip any election.

Overall this is what I talk about if the Dems want to be feckless and play the game of civility or don't rock the boat is going to get them stomped eventually. The fascist are here and they will stomp on you neck to bring it to fruition.

[Fugus]

Biden is basically the most progressive president in generations. What if he's the last one for another few generations?

A really sad thing about these "black-pilled progressives". What if they poisoned the well so much... any future center-left coalition never looks there way again.
Their constant back stabbing and goal posting for what .. constant threats to with hold their vote <again>. There's no point to cater to their policies if there's no help electorally. Or worse, the constant doomposting to discourage the rest of the coalition.

Biden's legacy will be as one of the most progressive Presidents in modern history, completely weighed down by an intransigent Congress and a media ecosystem that shat on him at every conceivable opportunity.

It's concerning that, real policyworkers have spent years trying to accomplish what Biden got done, and the moment he does it, the entire political ecosystem throws him out on his ass.

And for what? A month and a half of semi-good vibes then a return to doomerism?

I don't see it that way. Just look at standard conservatism. Not the MAGA style but before that hemorrhoid flared up. Look at how soft they had to get on racist policies and how hush they had to get about it before it came out. And look how the majority of the nation largely rejects it and what age group embraces it.

Within the next 20 years, they know they are out of voters so they are dictatorship or bust. As that generation dies, the entire overton window shifts with it.

Biden is the most progressive candidate in decades SO FAR. And his progressive policies aren't what cost him the voters that aren't dead in the coming years. Remember, before he took office, ON HERE from time to time, he was being joked about as one of the most Republican Democrats they could have gotten. He didn't take those policies to get people from his generation or even mine.

Make no doubt about it, as the current geriatric racist die out, their views will largely die with them short MAGA establishing a full on caliphate and executing the heretics who don't convert to MAGA as well. They might have control of the courts for a while but the more they try to push against it, the more will be generated to push them out and even they know it. And even if the courts kept in power, as those racist views are rejected by the newer generations and the older ones are fewer and fewer, even businesses will learn to reject them as well if they want to keep customers unless they want to known as a hateful fringe establishment.

So, the views that you are talking about WILL become more talked about in politics as they are more and more mainstream and those screaming "Get off my lawn" aren't around to vote against them anymore. Especially as the younger generations get more politically active after watching all the stuff of the past 25 years.

The ONLY things they can do to prevent this change is to burn this nation to the ground so it isn't here to change or go full Taliban trying to execute anyone who opposes them as even trying to redefine the education in the nation wouldn't have an impact for the next decade or so and would largely be rejected as well by the newer generations who have increasing access to information outside of their small circle unless they choose to self segregate themselves from the rest of the world that isn't an authoritarian regime.

[Bodakane]

Like I said, I agree with him about Garland. He’s been soft and ineffective. But I was talking about the latest Musk thing specifically in the post you quoted. I don’t think it’s the craziest thing in the world to let this one go for now. If Harris wins, put a proper AG in and go hard after all the MAGA criminals.

Letting crimes go because we're scared of what Trump is going to say is crazy to me considering he will say anything no matter what. Look at Jan 6th for example. Everything was done correctly and above board in the election and he still made shit up and pushed it to the point an insurrection was attempted.

The only surefire solution is to uphold the law and if they rise up because of that, take them the fuck down.

[Valdhammer]

Letting crimes go because we're scared of what Trump is going to say is crazy to me considering he will say anything no matter what. Look at Jan 6th for example. Everything was done correctly and above board in the election and he still made shit up and pushed it to the point an insurrection was attempted.

The only surefire solution is to uphold the law and if they rise up because of that, take them the fuck down.

That’s not the argument. It doesn’t matter what Trump will say. What matters is how voters will respond, and if you think prosecuting Musk will not cost Harris the election, you haven’t been paying attention to what’s actually happening in America.

Oh and also, what he did is more than likely not a crime.

[Fugus]

I hate to say it, but definitely not the time to indict Musk.

If you indict now, you feed into the conservatives victim complex it might help Trump win and if Trump wins, his DoJ will immediately drop all charges, so nothing happens to either of them and they get off without consequences for their crimes.

If you wait till after the election, assuming/hoping Trump loses, then all that is off the table, can safely go after Trump and Musk for their crimes with the only thing blocking you being the Supreme Court who will also have very little reason to keep protecting him as it actually generates more ill will towards them and while their credibility is already deep in the negatives, it will send it even further negative and they don't want to create a push so big that it removes them or actually holds them accountable.

If Trump wins, there is nothing that will happen to either of them regardless of what they have done or what they deserve short of, as Trump described them, a supporter of the second amendment exercising their rights. (Not advocating anything, just pointing out the only accountability left on the table at that point).

[Valdhammer]

I hate to say it, but definitely not the time to indict Musk.

If you indict now, you feed into the conservatives victim complex it might help Trump win and if Trump wins, his DoJ will immediately drop all charges, so nothing happens to either of them and they get off without consequences for their crimes.

If you wait till after the election, assuming/hoping Trump loses, then all that is off the table, can safely go after Trump and Musk for their crimes with the only thing blocking you being the Supreme Court who will also have very little reason to keep protecting him as it actually generates more ill will towards them and while their credibility is already deep in the negatives, it will send it even further negative and they don't want to create a push so big that it removes them or actually holds them accountable.

If Trump wins, there is nothing that will happen to either of them regardless of what they have done or what they deserve short of, as Trump described them, a supporter of the second amendment exercising their rights. (Not advocating anything, just pointing out the only accountability left on the table at that point).

But the key point is that the conduct may not even be illegal. This is not a case where a codified crime was definitively violated and now the government has to prove that Musk was the one to violate it. It’s a case where Musk did something that might be illegal, depending on whether a judge (not a jury but a judge) agrees with the DOJ’s interpretation of the statute because it’s a question of law not of fact.

And it would be a federal judge in Pennsylvania whom the government could not select ahead of time. So it could be a Trump judge who then rules in Musk’s favor. And guess what happens then? You just made precedent that what he did is actually legal.

The shouts of “all criminals should be treated the same” are misplaced here because we don’t even know whether a crime has been committed.

[Fugus]

But the key point is that the conduct may not even be illegal. This is not a case where a codified crime was definitively violated and now the government has to prove that Musk was the one to violate it. It’s a case where Musk did something that might be illegal, depending on whether a judge (not a jury but a judge) agrees with the DOJ’s interpretation of the statute because it’s a question of law not of fact.

And it would be a federal judge in Pennsylvania whom the government could not select ahead of time. So it could be a Trump judge who then rules in Musk’s favor. And guess what happens then? You just made precedent that what he did is actually legal.

The shouts of “all criminals should be treated the same” are misplaced here because we don’t even know whether a crime has been committed.

I guess it could up to the courts to decide, but at least it isn't the US Supreme Court yet as we know they would vote in his favor and we know how much they are already opening up the laws to the point you can donate a politicians campaign an unlimited amount of funds though a PAC, you can reward them afterwards by calling it a gratuity, and then if they add in the ability to outright purchase votes in one fashion or another.

As far as it being illegal or not. The law states that it is illegal to pay someone to vote, to not vote, or to vote a certain way and signing a petition is a form of voting, so if his contest requires them to sign any petition or anything like that, it would be outright illegal in any SANE court of law.

Question, did his contest require you sign a petition or just register to vote? Signing the petition is black and white illegal, just being registered is a grey area.

[Valdhammer]

I guess it could up to the courts to decide, but at least it isn't the US Supreme Court yet as we know they would vote in his favor and we know how much they are already opening up the laws to the point you can donate a politicians campaign an unlimited amount of funds though a PAC, you can reward them afterwards by calling it a gratuity, and then if they add in the ability to outright purchase votes in one fashion or another.

As far as it being illegal or not. The law states that it is illegal to pay someone to vote, to not vote, or to vote a certain way and signing a petition is a form of voting, so if his contest requires them to sign any petition or anything like that, it would be outright illegal in any SANE court of law.

Question, did his contest require you sign a petition or just register to vote? Signing the petition is black and white illegal, just being registered is a grey area.

Reasonable minds can disagree whether signing a petition that does not result in anyone actually getting elected to any official office is in fact voting, as that term has been defined through decades of court opinions.

[Fugus]

Reasonable minds can disagree whether signing a petition that does not result in anyone actually getting elected to any official office is in fact voting, as that term has been defined through decades of court opinions.

I guess, but I would guess that signing a petition can get stuff on a ballot, so the same would be with other ones. But that could be up for interpretation.

[Valdhammer]

I guess, but I would guess that signing a petition can get stuff on a ballot, so the same would be with other ones. But that could be up for interpretation.

Yeah that’s precisely the point. How have the American courts defined “voting” and does what Musk did amount to paying people to vote or to register to vote? It’s a question of law for a judge to decide. And that’s a pretty big gamble.

There is also the fact that the supreme court has already ruled in Citizens United that money is speech and thus protected by the constitution. So if paying candidates directly is not a crime, even though it looks a whole hell of a lot like bribery and corruption, then maybe paying voters is also OK even though it too looks a hell of a lot like bribery and corruption.

Maybe being a voter in a swing state will soon become one of the best paid jobs one can get.