Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Draco-Onis]

The lockdowns made sense at the time but they lasted longer than they should have. Once vaccines were rolling out it should have ended there. But again, it was experts that brought us vaccines and Ill be damned if I pretend I understand how mRNA vaccines work so my trust on experts is pretty high.

The lock downs lasted so long because there was no coordination with the federal government, Trump was all over the place. Once the new administration came in they had to clean up the mess and try to put something together out the cluster fuck left behind.

[Gaidax]

Skepticism should go away with the introduction of evidence.

That's the pickle. there were plenty of gospel-like statements back then with very shaky evidence, if at all.

Sure hindsight 20/20, but it was quite a long shot, for example, to call vaccines safe when they did not clear sufficient testing yet.

For example, when reports of heart related issues in healthy young adult vaccine recipients began to creep up, there was a big effort to gaslight everyone that it was all BS. But in the end, it ended up being confirmed as a possible, albeit very rare side effect and you can go and check this yourself.

So, the skepticism of whether something like that can be called safe, when it did not really pass all the proper regulated testing phases was warranted, but it was suppressed.

[Shadowferal]

Maybe Trump should've leaned hard on injecting bleach.

[Doomcookie]

That's the pickle. there were plenty of gospel-like statements back then with very shaky evidence, if at all.

Sure hindsight 20/20, but it was quite a long shot, for example, to call vaccines safe when they did not clear sufficient testing yet.

For example, when reports of heart related issues in healthy young adult vaccine recipients began to creep up, there was a big effort to gaslight everyone that it was all BS. But in the end, it ended up being confirmed as a possible, albeit very rare side effect and you can go and check this yourself.

So, the skepticism of whether something like that can be called safe, when it did not really pass all the proper regulated testing phases was warranted, but it was suppressed.

"Not sufficient testing."

"We need data that covers 30 years of testing before we can know!"

Yeah, we've heard all that anti-vaxxer shenanigans. There were studies done on heart-related issues. Those studies showed that people who took the vaccine had a small chance of developing things like myocarditis. it also showed that people who got Covid had a much higher chance of getting myocarditis. The anti-vaxxers did not care.

The skepticism was with those who ignored all those studies. It wasn't suppressed, I read all sorts of studies on the issue. The math was undeniable, it was simply better for the overwhelming majority of people to get the vaccines, because it would reduce the chances of getting that exact thing you warned about.

You're doing it right now.

[Gaidax]

"Not sufficient testing."

"We need data that covers 30 years of testing before we can know!"

Yeah, we've heard all that anti-vaxxer shenanigans. There were studies done on heart-related issues. Those studies showed that people who took the vaccine had a small chance of developing things like myocarditis. it also showed that people who got Covid had a much higher chance of getting myocarditis. The anti-vaxxers did not care.

The skepticism was with those who ignored all those studies. It wasn't suppressed, I read all sorts of studies on the issue. The math was undeniable, it was simply better for the overwhelming majority of people to get the vaccines, because it would reduce the chances of getting that exact thing you warned about.

You're doing it right now.

It's not "anti-vaxxer shenanigans".

As I said, you can go browse my history, back in the day I was one of THE people round these parts pushing vaccines and mandates as hard as possible, because ultimately those were reasonable precaution measures in face of unknown threat. Same goes for vaccines, I got mine pretty much like third day it was available in my country, and we were among the first in the world on this one.

So, you can't pull this "anit-vaxxer" crap on me, buddy. I am VERY much "vaxxer".

There is a reason why extensive testing is needed for treatments and medications before they can be deemed safe and this process was "expedited" a lot here, and as a result - careless statements were made that became the dogma, and people who pointed out the prematurity of such conclusions were treated... well in a way you do in the quote - practically my point right there.

[Doomcookie]

It's not "anti-vaxxer shenanigans".

As I said, you can go browse my history, back in the day I was one of THE people round these parts pushing vaccines and mandates as hard as possible, because ultimately those were reasonable precaution measures in face of unknown threat. Same goes for vaccines, I got mine pretty much like third day it was available in my country, and we were among the first in the world on this one.

So, you can't pull this "anit-vaxxer" crap on me, buddy. I am VERY much "vaxxer".

There is a reason why extensive testing is needed for treatments and medications before they can be deemed safe and this process was "expedited" a lot here, and as a result - careless statements were made that became the dogma, and people who pointed out the prematurity of such conclusions were treated... well in a way you do in the quote - practically my point right there.

You're siding with the anti-vaxxers, and pushing the ignorance they had.

It was expedited, because people were dying. We also know that the anti-vaxxers lied about ingredients, studies, testing, and that it wasn't safe. How long should they have done the testing? 10 years? 30 years?

Extensive testing was done on the vaccines, as well as mRNA vaccines as a whole. Anti-vaxxers are the ones who made the careless statements.

[NED funded]

Its actually wild that antivaxxers threw 100 lies and bc they were sort of right in one of those lies now it means we must take their skepticism seriously. If the covid vaccines are proof of something is that thousands of life saving treatments are being held hostage by regulations.

[Gaidax]

If the covid vaccines are proof of something is that thousands of life saving treatments are being held hostage by regulations.

I am sorry, but I most certainly don't want any deregulation to be happening as far as medical treatments go. There are more than plenty fuckups with various medications as is.

The pharmaceutical corporations can do better and with the recent advances in technology they should do better, they don't need regulatory discounts.

A close to home example for me would be Eltroxin, a drug my mother was using where the manufacturer changed the formula for it, which introduced various side effects that were unspecified in the manual. The company did announce the change, but did not update the packaging/sheet to reflect that change and neither did sufficient testing which led to unexpected side effects for hundreds of patients.

In the end there was a lawsuit locally with about $12m in damages being paid out in the compensations. Luckily for my mother, her based endocrinologist was on the ball and informed her of the change and gave her options, but there were a few hundred people who weren't so lucky.

[Draco-Onis]

Its actually wild that antivaxxers threw 100 lies and bc they were sort of right in one of those lies now it means we must take their skepticism seriously. If the covid vaccines are proof of something is that thousands of life saving treatments are being held hostage by regulations.

The reason COVID vaccines came so quickly is because they were based on existing vaccines that have been tested for safety. It wasn't brand new technology that we know nothing about. I suggest you read about what happens in some of these drug trials even for relatively minor treatments. If you want to see what happens when you deregulate look at the supplement industry now take that scenario and apply it to medication that will kill far more people.

[PhaelixWW]

The lockdowns made sense at the time but they lasted longer than they should have. Once vaccines were rolling out it should have ended there.

First, those vaccines didn't all get administered at once. So it doesn't make sense to release the lockdowns as soon as vaccines start, but only when they reach a certain saturation threshold. That's also why there were modifications to lockdowns using vaccination cards, etc. to effect a slow release.

Second, it's easy to study the data in hindsight and try to isolate what an earlier end to lockdowns might have been, but there's no way to access future hindsight, so calling them "pretty major failures of public health policy and of experts" is just ludicrous. Considering that some 15-30 million people died worldwide, I think it's only natural that they exercised prudent caution at the time.

[Kathandira]

The reason COVID vaccines came so quickly is because they were based on existing vaccines that have been tested for safety. It wasn't brand new technology that we know nothing about. I suggest you read about what happens in some of these drug trials even for relatively minor treatments. If you want to see what happens when you deregulate look at the supplement industry now take that scenario and apply it to medication that will kill far more people.

Bro, I bought this leukemia medicine from 7-11, and i've had an erection for 8 hours.

[Draco-Onis]

Bro, I bought this leukemia medicine from 7-11, and i've had an erection for 8 hours.

It's weird that people learn nothing from history, we've had an unregulated pharma industry before it was the days where you snake oil sales person would sell you alcohol to put your kid to sleep and cocaine for your cough.

[Kathandira]

It's weird that people learn nothing from history, we've had an unregulated pharma industry before it was the days where you snake oil sales person would sell you alcohol to put your kid to sleep and cocaine for your cough.

Honestly, it might be because snake oil is still for sale.

[Belize]

It's weird that people learn nothing from history, we've had an unregulated pharma industry before it was the days where you snake oil sales person would sell you alcohol to put your kid to sleep and cocaine for your cough.

Look what big government took away from us.

[Breccia]

Don't you think you're painting things with an awfully thick brush there?

We've both been in the same threads for the last eight years.

No. @Doomcookie has used an accurate brush, based on actual people, actual responses, and plenty of evidence. I'm surprised you find it unusual, since you were paying attention too.

[Edge-]

That's the pickle. there were plenty of gospel-like statements back then with very shaky evidence, if at all.

Sure hindsight 20/20, but it was quite a long shot, for example, to call vaccines safe when they did not clear sufficient testing yet.

They're safe. They are still safe. The only people who believe they aren't safe are conspiracy theorists who ignore reality and facts and push misinformation and lies. We've been over this, and if they were as dangerous as the folks I assume you don't side with, but seem to coddle and support weirdly, or at least defend, we'd be seeing massive consequences globally from it. Which we're not.

For example, when reports of heart related issues in healthy young adult vaccine recipients began to creep up, there was a big effort to gaslight everyone that it was all BS. But in the end, it ended up being confirmed as a possible, albeit very rare side effect and you can go and check this yourself.

No. The "That's BS" was a reaction to the dishonest claims that it was a SERIOUS risk of myocarditis and that the risk was GREATER than if someone caught covid. Which are both lies, completely untrue, and worth aggressively pushing back on and debunking as they're dangerous misinformation - not skepticism.

It did get confirmed that there's a slight risk of myocarditis! And not only incredibly low (in-line with risks of complications for most medications/vaccines, if not lower), but it's considerably lower than the risk of myocarditis from covid.

But here you are, still weirdly demanding that people treat dishonest liars and conspiracy theorists with honesty and gentleness while pushing the same kind of misinformation they pushed.

So, the skepticism of whether something like that can be called safe, when it did not really pass all the proper regulated testing phases was warranted, but it was suppressed.

That's not skepticism. That's just misinformation. Joe Rogan is not a skeptic, he's a deeply gullible idiot. He didn't repeat these claims because he's skeptical, he repeated them because he's deeply, dangerously stupid, easily susceptible to propaganda and misinformation, and has zero actual basis for his skepticism since he doesn't know the data to begin with, for a great example.

Beyond that - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...111/bioe.13151

They did. They didn't go through the full 6 year process for obvious reasons, but they passed clinical trials, were based off of existing advances in MRNA vaccine research that dramatically sped up its development, and continues to show that it's safe and effective.

Yet here you are, continually without any real data, just constantly demanding we treat the dishonest conspiracy theorists and general anti-government/expert nutjobs just reacting without thinking with seriousness.

[Rasulis]

Well good thing for Trump he didn’t do something stupid like announce a bunch of pointless tarrifs that are predicted by most economists to tank the US economy!

…wait a second….

Tariffs will be detrimental to the economy. The same with mass deportation.

However, even if he does everything right, there are underlying causes affecting the economy that's beyond his control.

Take housing cost. Thirty years mortgage rate just went up from 6% to 6.8%. We would expect to see home prices to down. Instead, it went up 3.1% nationally. It would have been a lot more if not for the hurricanes and condo fiasco that's driving Miami real estate prices down. Right now, the real estate market is driven by scarcity. His solution of building homes in remote government lands won't solve the problem.

[Kaleredar]

Tariffs will be detrimental to the economy. The same with mass deportation.

However, even if he does everything right, there are underlying causes affecting the economy that's beyond his control.

Take housing cost. Thirty years mortgage rate just went up from 6% to 6.8%. We would expect to see home prices to down. Instead, it went up 3.1% nationally. It would have been a lot more if not for the hurricanes and condo fiasco that's driving Miami real estate prices down. Right now, the real estate market is driven by scarcity. His solution of building homes in remote government lands won't solve the problem.

Much like with Biden and indeed any president there are obviously things out of Trump’s control when it comes to the economy.

However, Biden worked to ameliorate these issues, while Trump seems content to throw gasoline onto the fire while adamantly maintaining that it’s actually water. The best water. The greatest water there ever was.

[Captain N]

Trump seems content to throw gasoline onto the fire while adamantly maintaining that it’s actually water. The best water. The greatest water there ever was.

You could even say it's big water...ocean water.

[Edge-]

The best water. The greatest water there ever was.

Big water. Ocean water.