Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Elegiac]

I’m glad you agree. Such an altering in the balance of power should only happen in a major redrafting of the constitution (either a package of amendments, or an Article 5 convention). The states, who get internet fury for having a chamber that represents the little guy against the power of populous megacenter, should have a say when the big states decide they no longer want to share power according to the document they all signed. American discourse signals a divorce, as more and more young people and left wing ideologues decide they’d rather a split country with huge population-proportional voting schemes, than half the legislature represented by state and not person (and setting it’s own rules, like the filibuster).

Well at least you're admitting the right wing doesn't believe in democracy.

Also lol @ you rehashing actual pro-slavery arguments from before the Civil War.

[downnola]

I’m glad you agree. Such an altering in the balance of power should only happen in a major redrafting of the constitution (either a package of amendments, or an Article 5 convention). The states, who get internet fury for having a chamber that represents the little guy against the power of populous megacenter, should have a say when the big states decide they no longer want to share power according to the document they all signed. American discourse signals a divorce, as more and more young people and left wing ideologues decide they’d rather a split country with huge population-proportional voting schemes, than half the legislature represented by state and not person (and setting it’s own rules, like the filibuster).

Hey, maybe some would dig being dominated by the big states in return for all the tax money redistributed by their benevolent masters!

The only reason it would come to a "divorce" is because conservatives have a "my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to governing. From the Civil War to the Jan 6th Yokel Haram insurrection, you can always count on "the little guy"** to throw an incredible temper tantrum when they begin to lose power. Because that's all that really matters to them, not the well-being of Americans. If they did care, they'd simply try to win votes by making a popular political platform rather than trying to keep people from voting, or drawing imaginary lines through six different counties to form a district favorable to Republicans, or outright insurrection after losing a Federal election.

And I have to say, reading you try to paint the power structure of the Senate as a "little guy"** vs the "elites" scenario and then see you go on to use the term "left-wing ideologues" made me laugh irl. It takes a serious commitment to a certain worldview to argue that congress is an ideological representation of the United States in one post, and then argue the power structure of the Senate is the only thing keeping the left from bullying "the little guy"** around in the next post.

Also, I think you may want to see which states end up paying the lion's share of Federal taxes and which states receive those taxes in funding before making flippant comments about redistribution via taxes.

**Real Americans, Patriots, white Anglo-Saxon protestant males, or whatever other populist cliche conservative blowhards like to use these days.

[Elegiac]

**Real Americans, Patriots, or whatever other populist cliche conservative blowhards like to use these days.

Just say white.

[downnola]

Just say white.

Good looking out, fixed it.

[PhaelixWW]

*snip*

Nice to see you back. Any comment on why you think "no taxation without representation" is "hilarious" and unAmerican?

Or are you going to bounce again rather than answer the tough questions?

*crickets*

Yeah. That's what I thought.

Thanks for admitting that you have no defense for your position.

[uuuhname]

It’s like you can’t acknowledge that Democrats tried and failed to obtain the votes for certain large agenda items. Manchin and Sinema are symptoms of the country rejecting your favored plans. Hell, if you inveigh against the common man, certainly West Virginia and Arizona qualify, no big bastions of the elites you so foolishly focus on.

this strategy of talking past people and not registering what they are saying is not doing you the favors you think it does. but I guess the goal here is for you to maintain this illusion that your side has both the backing of the general population and has AN AGANDA at all. but you use the worst possibly examples of this, it's so fucking hilarious how desperate you are lmao.

yeah dude, the senator from a deeply red state and the openly corrupt one that's being threatened by her own state to get with the program is a sign that the country rejects the center left agenda of doing the bare minimum of holding this country together to keep functioning as a modern society. that's how delusional you're acting. just ignore that you lost the presidency, lost the house, and lost the majority in the senate. this isn't an argument in favor of the strength of the democrats but pointing out how Trumpism got rejected across the board.

but I guess this is all in service of trying to throw a blanket over the elephant in the room that you and other Trump voters have no interest in running a democracy.

[Biglog]

One interesting and potentially huge thing to keep an eye on are foreign relation status with Turkey. Erdogan has been going very nationalistic and neo-Ottoman Empire trend for a few years now. Erdogan even reportedly crumpled up and threw away a letter from Trump a couple years ago asking him to stand down vs. the Kurds. There was also their direct help to Azerbaijan in the war with Armenia, and of course the S-400 purchase. Turkey has also threatened and locked on military jets from NATO members Greece and Italy in recent years. So it's been a mess for quite a while.

But that cranked up a notch this week. Erdogan was in NY for the recent UN conference and asked to meet with Biden. For whatever reason, scheduling issues, higher priority things going on, or purposely snubbing him for their activity above, they told him they couldn't meet but that they'd meet him in late October at the G20. Erdogan was infuriated, bashed the US, and immediately went to Putin where they made a vague but wide-reaching agreement to purchase more S-400s (an act that could result in them being officially expelled from NATO), and more importantly to work together on rockets, submarines, military aircraft, etc.

Basically he's playing both sides between Russia and the US/NATO, saying who will give me more. Not exactly a reliable NATO ally. It's unfortunate because Turkey does have a vast industry for making weapons domestically, they are great fighters, and strategically Turkey has been critical for thousands of years. But they writing has been on the wall for a while with them. They've also been designing their own domestic fighter jet for a few years as an alternative to the F-35, which many view as being done to prepare to leave NATO.

So it's a complex issue that is kind of no-win for the US and Biden. Appease Turkey and it's saying their behavior is ok. Take a tougher line and Turkey runs to Russia with their hands out. It is something to keep an eye on and a challenge for Biden to try to both keep Turkey in the NATO fold, but also have them behave like a NATO member. It's also critical for Armenia since Russia's promise to protect Armenia is literally the only thing keeping Turkey and Azerbaijan from invading and wiping them out, the war last year showed CSTO states will follow Russia's lead. Putin wants to pull Erdogan in badly, and I worry about a WW2 Poland type scenario for Armenia where 2 larger countries that have had a contentious past sacrifice a smaller country in the middle in the name of the bigger picture.

Trump had no success with Turkey and was basically mocked by Erdogan, so this isn't a bash-Biden post. It's more just pointing out what a complex issue it is and that it's one to keep an eye on.

[Gaidax]

*snip*

Turkey won't leave NATO and NATO won't kick it out either.

The mutual benefits are just too great. This snub this and snub that, making deal with one side, then giving a carrot to the other is going on for a decade and it does pay off actually. Turkey is pretty much untouchable, in-between being on EU payroll with a refugee blackmail and it being strategically well placed and packing as well - everyone wants to be friends or at least to make sure not to break up completely.

I'm not a fan of Erdogan, but he's really good at this. He gets a lot out of this tension.

[tehdang]

The only reason it would come to a "divorce" is because conservatives have a "my way or the highway" attitude when it comes to governing. From the Civil War to the Jan 6th Yokel Haram insurrection, you can always count on "the little guy"** to throw an incredible temper tantrum when they begin to lose power. Because that's all that really matters to them, not the well-being of Americans. If they did care, they'd simply try to win votes by making a popular political platform rather than trying to keep people from voting, or drawing imaginary lines through six different counties to form a district favorable to Republicans, or outright insurrection after losing a Federal election.

And I have to say, reading you try to paint the power structure of the Senate as a "little guy"** vs the "elites" scenario and then see you go on to use the term "left-wing ideologues" made me laugh irl. It takes a serious commitment to a certain worldview to argue that congress is an ideological representation of the United States in one post, and then argue the power structure of the Senate is the only thing keeping the left from bullying "the little guy"** around in the next post.

Also, I think you may want to see which states end up paying the lion's share of Federal taxes and which states receive those taxes in funding before making flippant comments about redistribution via taxes.

**Real Americans, Patriots, white Anglo-Saxon protestant males, or whatever other populist cliche conservative blowhards like to use these days.

Your "my way or the highway" is my "if you keep losing elections, and complain you lost unfairly, then work on winning elections."

Blaming the system for your losses is plain whining. Blaming the current compromise between big states bossing around small states on slavery is missing the entire picture. Democratic ideology became the dominant player in big cities and coasts, and they've become incredibly uncompetitive among the working class, both since Obama and since the 90s. So if you wanna run the country, run on a message that appeals to the country.

And please don't forget that there's a part of Congress where your "states end up paying the lion's share of Federal taxes" rules supreme. That's the House of Representatives. All spending bills originate there. Welcome to the mechanism for which the states that control the majority of taxes have a larger say in where they go (and it isn't my problem that big states like Texas and Florida in terms of contributing tax revenue haven't being going Democrats way. That would be the Democrat message, once again.)

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah. That's what I thought.

Thanks for admitting that you have no defense for your position.

13 notifications and 8+ responses to initial posts in a thread that isn't titled the "tehdang Lovefest."

The posts started out on intimately related Biden/Harris stuff, like why Democrats are having trouble passing big bills through Congress. Tracking tangents from here led to accusations on hypocrisy on Jan 6 and Puerto Rican statehood and accusations of hypocrisy related to that. I'm not incredibly interested in following every left winger down the trails as they twist through each subject, and particularly not to the classic "Ha! No response! Proof that you have no defense for your position!" kinda shitposter angle. It just craps up the thread and makes it about poster personalities and stupid internet dunks.

On actual topic:
Sinema left DC after Pelosi cancelled the House vote she promised to hold. Her statement has been released
https://twitter.com/SenatorSinema/st...743237636?s=20

...What Americans have seen instead is an ineffective stunt to gain leverage over a separate proposal. My vote belongs to Arizona, and I do not trade my vote for political favors ...

Congress was designed as a place where representatives of Americans with valid and diverse views find compromise and common ground. That is why, when President Biden asked me to continue bipartisan infrastructure negotiations, I agreed and helped deliver the bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act ...

Good-faith negotiations, however, require trust. Over the course of this year, Democratic leaders have made conflicting promises that could not all be kept -- and have, at times, pretended that differences of opinion within our party did not exist, even when those disagreements were repeatedly made clear directly and publicly. Canceling the infrastructure vote further erodes that trust

Well composed and written by her team. Biden made a big celebratory event after striking the bipartisan deal.

Anybody remember June 24th still?

He then intimated that he expected both bills to pass simultaneously. When signers to the compromise balked, he withdrew that. The same dithering continues today. I love the sweet sweet irony of the Biden team whipping against his own bill.

“The fact that the president came to the Hill and whipped against his own bill is the strangest thing I’ve ever seen.”

That late-night observation was just one of many we heard from frustrated lawmakers and senior aides stunned by what happened in the House on Friday.

— What senior Dems thought was going to happen: President JOE BIDEN was coming to the Hill to support Speaker NANCY PELOSI’s efforts to rally the party behind his historic $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure plan ahead of a Friday vote.

— What ended up happening instead: Biden told them he wanted to hold off on BIF until there was a reconciliation deal — even if that means delaying the vote for several more days or even weeks.

Politico

[postman1782]

I think Erdogan is into murdering kids just as much as you zionist twats, can't see why you wouldn't be totally into him as a fellow degenerate anti-humanitarian ethnic supremacist.

Awwww someone is putting his white hood back on.

[PhaelixWW]

I'm not incredibly interested in following every left winger down the trails as they twist through each subject, and particularly not to the classic "Ha! No response! Proof that you have no defense for your position!" kinda shitposter angle.

That argument might hold more weight if it weren't for the fact that you responded to it initially to call it "hilarious" before you chickened out and ran.

It just craps up the thread and makes it about poster personalities and stupid internet dunks.

Thank you for agreeing that your laugh-and-run was a shitpost and an attempted stupid internet dunk.

And again, you clearly have no defense. Here's a hint: if you don't have a defense to your position that's not "I'm just desperate to maintain my party's declining relevance!", then don't even bother responding to it in the first place.

[downnola]

Your "my way or the highway" is my "if you keep losing elections, and complain you lost unfairly, then work on winning elections."

Blaming the system for your losses is plain whining. Blaming the current compromise between big states bossing around small states on slavery is missing the entire picture. Democratic ideology became the dominant player in big cities and coasts, and they've become incredibly uncompetitive among the working class, both since Obama and since the 90s. So if you wanna run the country, run on a message that appeals to the country.

"Democratic ideology" is so unpopular with the working class that it won over the rust belt and flipped Arizona and Georgia resulting in the largest hissy fit thrown by adults since the election of Abraham Lincoln. If American conservatism was so popular with the "working class" and the country, Republican state legislators wouldn't have responded to the 2020 election with bills that limit people's ability to vote. Every sentence of your argument is absurd from top to bottom.

And please don't forget that there's a part of Congress where your "states end up paying the lion's share of Federal taxes" rules supreme. That's the House of Representatives. All spending bills originate there. Welcome to the mechanism for which the states that control the majority of taxes have a larger say in where they go (and it isn't my problem that big states like Texas and Florida in terms of contributing tax revenue haven't being going Democrats way. That would be the Democrat message, once again.)

Yeah, sorry but NY and Cali spend the most in federal taxes, not Texas and Florida. And where the tax money goes is not a problem because Democrats don't mind helping those in need. You're the one who brought up redistribution like it's the big cities taking from the "little guy," not me.

[Captain N]

Yeah, sorry but NY and Cali spend the most in federal taxes, not Texas and Florida. And where the tax money goes is not a problem because Democrats don't mind helping those in need. You're the one who brought up redistribution like it's the big cities taking from the "little guy," not me.

Just wanted to reinforce this part of your statement with this:



California alone pays just 16 billion less in federal taxes than Texas and Florida do combined. Add in New York and it's 125 billion tilted heavily in favor of the two Democratic controlled states.

https://www.moneyrates.com/research-...s-by-state.htm

[Breccia]

I feel this is a bad year to talk about donor/recipient states, on account of the federal government giving out a shitton of aid and also everyone being unemployed in 2020.

[Blur4stuff]

The majority of people haven't been on republican's side for decades. The only reason republicans have had any significant levels of power is because the game is rigged in their favor. Even when you look at their supporters, it becomes immediately clear that they only have that support because of lies and conspiracies. Ask any republican/Trump supporter why they won't vote for a democrat and it's virtually guaranteed their answer is going to be based off of something that isn't true.

[Benggaul]

I feel this is a bad year to talk about donor/recipient states, on account of the federal government giving out a shitton of aid and also everyone being unemployed in 2020.

I might have been inclined to agree had a troll not tried to imply that Texas and Florida's taxpaying capabilities means they have more say than other states. Also, both states have killed off thousands of their taxpayers.

[Zan15]

"Democratic ideology" is so unpopular with the working class that it won over the rust belt and flipped Arizona and Georgia resulting in the largest hissy fit thrown by adults since the election of Abraham Lincoln. If American conservatism was so popular with the "working class" and the country, Republican state legislators wouldn't have responded to the 2020 election with bills that limit people's ability to vote. Every sentence of your argument is absurd from top to bottom.



Yeah, sorry but NY and Cali spend the most in federal taxes, not Texas and Florida. And where the tax money goes is not a problem because Democrats don't mind helping those in need. You're the one who brought up redistribution like it's the big cities taking from the "little guy," not me.

LOL i am sure NY and CA would love to have the per capita federal funding levels of a lot of other states. Imagine how much lower their income/sales/property tax rates would be if they had something in the ballpark of those states.

Net federal funding for CA is something below 100 dollars per capita and some years its negative. NY its negative most years around -1000 to -2000 per capita.

Florida is around +2000-3000 per capita. Texas is better around 700-1200 per capita

Can you imagine CA had just 600 dollars more. That would be what, 28,000,000,000 extra to spend or reduce taxes a year.
Imagine NY just broke even? That would be what 22-25 billion dollars? 30+ if they got 700.

Now imagine they got FL levels. Oh lord.


Not sure where those tax #'s come from since NY claims in 2019 it paid $265B in federal taxes. Maybe you are just looking at income tax?
CA- $465b
TX- $270b
NY- $265b
FL- $204b

https://www.osc.state.ny.us/reports/...scal-year-2019

https://rockinst.org/issue-area/bala...payments-2021/ -give more detailed look and 5 year trends.

[Levelfive]

Sinema left DC after Pelosi cancelled the House vote she promised to hold. Her statement has been released
https://twitter.com/SenatorSinema/st...743237636?s=20

Well composed and written by her team. Biden made a big celebratory event after striking the bipartisan deal.

Anybody remember June 24th still?

He then intimated that he expected both bills to pass simultaneously. When signers to the compromise balked, he withdrew that. The same dithering continues today. I love the sweet sweet irony of the Biden team whipping against his own bill.

Politico

This is just whistling past the graveyard now since it affirms everything I said previously, while you keep shifting your way overconfident claims. Also LOL shorter Sinema: You guys preventing me from screwing you is really breaking trust over here. P.S. Sinema went home for yet another fundaraiser. Le shrug.

[tehdang]

"Democratic ideology" is so unpopular with the working class that it won over the rust belt and flipped Arizona and Georgia resulting in the largest hissy fit thrown by adults since the election of Abraham Lincoln. If American conservatism was so popular with the "working class" and the country, Republican state legislators wouldn't have responded to the 2020 election with bills that limit people's ability to vote. Every sentence of your argument is absurd from top to bottom.

It won over the rust belt so well that ... Dems flipped zero House seats and zero Senate seats in the rust belt. Remember, Congressional Republicans ran in advance of Trump. That's what made the hissy fit dumb from the start -- the 2020 election gave Republicans victories down-ticket, and a loss at the top of the ticket.

Yeah, sorry but NY and Cali spend the most in federal taxes, not Texas and Florida. And where the tax money goes is not a problem because Democrats don't mind helping those in need. You're the one who brought up redistribution like it's the big cities taking from the "little guy," not me.

They're an inconvenient example about wanting the big states to exercise more power than they do currently. You wouldn't have this problem if you'd weren't splitting the top five states in the country.

Dems don't mind taking money from people and giving it to people. They assume some they help are people in need, but the amount of waste and abuse in the system shows they just like spending the money; needy be damned.

[Levelfive]

It won over the rust belt so well that ... Dems flipped zero House seats and zero Senate seats in the rust belt. Remember, Congressional Republicans ran in advance of Trump. That's what made the hissy fit dumb from the start -- the 2020 election gave Republicans victories down-ticket, and a loss at the top of the ticket.


They're an inconvenient example about wanting the big states to exercise more power than they do currently. You wouldn't have this problem if you'd weren't splitting the top five states in the country.

Dems don't mind taking money from people and giving it to people. They assume some they help are people in need, but the amount of waste and abuse in the system shows they just like spending the money; needy be damned.

I can't believe people actually buy this shit, like the Democrats' play here is to pretend to care about people in need to win over Big Poor--literally the most marginalized and reviled and least powerful--by taking money from the people who revile them (the people who do most of the voting and campaign donating) and giving it to the (significantly less likely to vote) poors, but badly, and for sport, because they don't actually care about them. The conserva-sphere is a helluva drug.

Anyway, this post is about Republican hatred for democracy:

"Finally, consider the nuclear option: State legislatures may attempt to hand their electoral votes to a Republican even if a Democrat carries the state. That’s what Jeffrey Bossert Clark asked the Georgia legislature to do, after all—it is no longer possible to dismiss as quixotic. The doctrinal underpinnings of such a coup have already drawn support from four conservative justices who seek to give legislatures sweeping power over elections. If legislatures start deciding presidential elections themselves, Republican control over the presidency may become permanent. The courts will only grow more conservative and uphold more draconian voter suppression tactics. And the country will be trapped in the loop of counter-majoritarianism that enables laws like S.B. 8. Just wait and see how upset voters get about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade—and then watch how impossible it is for them to actually do anything about it. You can’t out-organize this push."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...u-hate-it.html