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  1. #221
    Pandaren Monk Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    No, I like the Horde when it's not a bunch of Nazis in leather or goth makeup. Not every Horde player wants to play the villain.
    Exactly. If I wanted to feel evil I'd go play SWTOR and make a Dark Side character. I don't want to have a character like that (and feel the same way) in WoW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Calia in Orgrimmar is terrible

    But Valeera is worse
    I still don't get why they decided to put Valeera in Dazar'alor of all places. An elf in a trollian city? That's just crazy lol
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Exactly. If I wanted to feel evil I'd go play SWTOR and make a Dark Side character. I don't want to have a character like that (and feel the same way) in WoW

    - - - Updated - - -



    I still don't get why they decided to put Valeera in Dazar'alor of all places. An elf in a trollian city? That's just crazy lol
    or you can play a forsaken and smash human heads with a shovel. let the forsaken be forsaken, to be hippie pacifist there are the taurens

  3. #223
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    First, the dreadlord thing... likely her plan to begin with. He kind of hints at it in Antorus. Even if not, they were in Arathi. Pretty far away from the undercity. There was no threat and she herself was under no threat. I don't really want to bring up the invasion of Gilneas into this. She got what she deserved. Had no business going there.
    In the book, we learn that Sylvanas agreed to the gathering to lure out the ones that had aspirations to a life with the living. It was a trap from the beggining. It's towards the end.

    You say things like Calia wanting to "shakle" them. Where do you come up with that stuff? It's not cause she is a menethil. I never seen her say she wants to rule them. She has only wanted to help them.
    It TOTALLY was Sylvanas fault/planning.

    Don't worry, the tangent wasn't personal, but it was to give you perspective. At least, you understand that it's not ok, even if you want to make an exception for Sylvanas for some reason. You think Anduin should have brought up the army to take the "dissending" forsaken? Interesting. Calia didnt have that power, so i don't see how it is her fault.
    Although they've always been flaky on it, the Dreadlord coup worked directly against Sylvanas favour which firmly suggests it wasn't a part of her plans. It not only weakened her forces by losing control of Undercity and having a significant part of her faction get swayed by power during the Expansion that she was directly trying to kill the Major Big Bad as well as delayed all future assaults against him, she also had a target painted on her back from both factions and had a literal invasion force inside her city which could render all her effort for naught because of it. Plus she literally got nothing out of it. Additionally Varimathras is pretty much confirmed as untrustworthy and with the current Dreadlord lore being retconned all over the place we can't exactly take what he says as anything worthwhile.

    The Arathi Highlands was still a contested zone as of the Gathering and Turalyon made explicitly sure that they brought a sizable force with them as an escort despite Anduin's input. Additionally the fact that Anduin was impressed upon that the area was essentially a "battlefield" shows the Gathering was still under risk of devolving into conflict. Gilneas was leaking cursed Worgen into Silverpine which was a direct threat to the Forsaken and they couldn't reach the source without dealing with it within Gilneas, it just turned out that a majority of the population had gone mad with the curse and as of Cataclysm had only just started to recover the sanity after years of assaulting Silverpine. I'm not sure about that, considering Godfrey was initially planning to negotiate with the Forsaken prior to his suicide she probably didn't expect him to stupidly execute her in the middle of an army and then get cornered in the nearest castle ruins. She initially agreed to the Gathering after beleieving Anduin likely had more personal than strategic reasons for it and realising it could be used as both a power move and method of appeasement for those in the Forsaken. She later impressed upon the participants of the Gathering what going against the terms established for the handling of event would meant and when Parqual began his pre-planned maneuvers to break the agreements she called the Gathering early as a means to figure out who was loyal and who wasn't. It only turned to a execution after one of the more loyal participants arrived back in a panic and disgust and informed Sylvanas of what she had seen and Calia had started making her presence known on the field.

    I mean the Forsaken shackled by Calia as in literally chained to her for their future characterisation when Lightforged Calia holds absolutely no future for the Forsaken as they are. Her introduction is an attempt to wipe the slate clean and weakens their race as a whole immensely as she has zero ties with them apart from being the daughter and sister of the people who caused their fate as well as being an absentee royal who went out of her way to do nothing for her people. If you were only going with her Legion characterisation then sure however throughout BtS Calia as well as others repeatedly bring up the concept of her reclaiming Lordaeron to which she either dismisses it till later or handwaves it away as something they shouldn't focus on until she gets to the Gathering. During which she affirms to herself her desire is be in control of her people because she believes Sylvanas has no legitimacy to do so. Upon death and resurrection she responds to Anduin that she didn't initially get involved with the Gathering as a bid for her kingdom as means of reassuring him that she had not been deceiving him from the start but then essentially states she still retains those aspiration in Light Undeath, just she isn't ready as of yet to take control of her Kingdom a response that Anduin finds amicable. So yes Calia literally admits she wants control of the leadership of the Forsaken despite the amount of times she tries to handwave it with smiles and claims of "only an advisor" and yes she is to blame for the failure of the Gathering.

    I don't think Anduin should've have brought an army, he did have an army with him at the Gathering and Parqual, who was one of the organisers on the Horde side of the Gathering, took Anduin allowing Calia to take the field as an indication that she had somehow secured the Alliance's assistance in disrupting the Gathering. There's a suggestion that there was some sort of hidden meaning that had meant to be communicated through having Calia obtaining permission to be present as some sort of signal for a blatant maneuver against the Gathering's terms to expatriate certain Forsaken from the event with the Alliance's help. Yes Calia didn't have the power to do so and clearly didn't realise she had been tricked into being on the field but she seized the opportunity to expose and promote herself rather taking the sensible course of action and retreating immediately.
    Argus' Nightmare Continues With Shadowlands
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  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    Although they've always been flaky on it, the Dreadlord coup worked directly against Sylvanas favour which firmly suggests it wasn't a part of her plans. It not only weakened her forces by losing control of Undercity and having a significant part of her faction get swayed by power during the Expansion that she was directly trying to kill the Major Big Bad as well as delayed all future assaults against him, she also had a target painted on her back from both factions and had a literal invasion force inside her city which could render all her effort for naught because of it. Plus she literally got nothing out of it. Additionally Varimathras is pretty much confirmed as untrustworthy and with the current Dreadlord lore being retconned all over the place we can't exactly take what he says as anything worthwhile.

    The Arathi Highlands was still a contested zone as of the Gathering and Turalyon made explicitly sure that they brought a sizable force with them as an escort despite Anduin's input. Additionally the fact that Anduin was impressed upon that the area was essentially a "battlefield" shows the Gathering was still under risk of devolving into conflict. Gilneas was leaking cursed Worgen into Silverpine which was a direct threat to the Forsaken and they couldn't reach the source without dealing with it within Gilneas, it just turned out that a majority of the population had gone mad with the curse and as of Cataclysm had only just started to recover the sanity after years of assaulting Silverpine. I'm not sure about that, considering Godfrey was initially planning to negotiate with the Forsaken prior to his suicide she probably didn't expect him to stupidly execute her in the middle of an army and then get cornered in the nearest castle ruins. She initially agreed to the Gathering after beleieving Anduin likely had more personal than strategic reasons for it and realising it could be used as both a power move and method of appeasement for those in the Forsaken. She later impressed upon the participants of the Gathering what going against the terms established for the handling of event would meant and when Parqual began his pre-planned maneuvers to break the agreements she called the Gathering early as a means to figure out who was loyal and who wasn't. It only turned to a execution after one of the more loyal participants arrived back in a panic and disgust and informed Sylvanas of what she had seen and Calia had started making her presence known on the field.

    I mean the Forsaken shackled by Calia as in literally chained to her for their future characterisation when Lightforged Calia holds absolutely no future for the Forsaken as they are. Her introduction is an attempt to wipe the slate clean and weakens their race as a whole immensely as she has zero ties with them apart from being the daughter and sister of the people who caused their fate as well as being an absentee royal who went out of her way to do nothing for her people. If you were only going with her Legion characterisation then sure however throughout BtS Calia as well as others repeatedly bring up the concept of her reclaiming Lordaeron to which she either dismisses it till later or handwaves it away as something they shouldn't focus on until she gets to the Gathering. During which she affirms to herself her desire is be in control of her people because she believes Sylvanas has no legitimacy to do so. Upon death and resurrection she responds to Anduin that she didn't initially get involved with the Gathering as a bid for her kingdom as means of reassuring him that she had not been deceiving him from the start but then essentially states she still retains those aspiration in Light Undeath, just she isn't ready as of yet to take control of her Kingdom a response that Anduin finds amicable. So yes Calia literally admits she wants control of the leadership of the Forsaken despite the amount of times she tries to handwave it with smiles and claims of "only an advisor" and yes she is to blame for the failure of the Gathering.

    I don't think Anduin should've have brought an army, he did have an army with him at the Gathering and Parqual, who was one of the organisers on the Horde side of the Gathering, took Anduin allowing Calia to take the field as an indication that she had somehow secured the Alliance's assistance in disrupting the Gathering. There's a suggestion that there was some sort of hidden meaning that had meant to be communicated through having Calia obtaining permission to be present as some sort of signal for a blatant maneuver against the Gathering's terms to expatriate certain Forsaken from the event with the Alliance's help. Yes Calia didn't have the power to do so and clearly didn't realise she had been tricked into being on the field but she seized the opportunity to expose and promote herself rather taking the sensible course of action and retreating immediately.
    He literally says she has always been scheming. Afrasiabi has let escape that the wrath gate was her doing. Arthas says Sylvanas. She orchestraded some fall guys for her assassination atempt with disregard to alliance and horde forces. She reveals herself as a villain expansions later. Like, it clearly wasn't a coincidence.

    That is all pretty narrative, but as i said, since the start, even the formation of the council was a plan to execute dissendence and threaten those that don't do her bidding. In that note, it is why Voss is forced into helping in the war campaign.
    There is no twisting that fact. It was all her plan. She didnt care about the gathering itself or aproaching of level field cooperation. From the start this event was just the means to a selfish goal of intimidation. So, none of what happened in the event can be grounds for her reaction since that reaction was always the plan. Just a question of when.

    I also want to dispute the Menethil as the cause of all evils for the people of Lordearon, when it was a Dreadlord plot. Arthas is no innocent, even if he was used, but it doesn't mean his treachery was reflected in every other member of the family, including the ones killed or made to flee by his rampage. It's again a biased assumption.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-11-23 at 04:21 PM.

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