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  1. #161
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    So I just watched this video clip and I see a lot of people complaining about Calia being in Orgrimmar and I can agree with the sentiment that she is not worthy to lead the Forsaken. No doubt she is a light abomination.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bgduIXYEVE

    Solution: Calia should be thrown from the roof of Grommash Hold as she doesn't belong on the Horde and Valeera should be forced to take the Blood Oath and become a Horde member.

    And finally we can rest easy knowing that Calia will no longer be alive to try to take the throne of the Forsaken and make her illegitimated claim in the Horde where she doesn't belong.
    Calia never made a claim to the Horde she was bought in due to Voss and the bulk of the forsaken asking her to help, also Voss is the acting leader of the forsaken. We don't know what Calia is quite yet, so calling her a abomination among a population of collective beings who are by nature are abominations in some kind of way is a stretch. Veleera don't give a fuck about HvA she care about individuals.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    There's an ocean of distance between "less traditionally good" and genocidal, race-war waging monsters.
    This.
    You play in a universe where multiple forces exist to wipe out evil. So playing an openly evil faction would leave your character with a very short lifespan.

    But frankly, most of the people that want an evil Horde also hate it when the Horde suffers any consequences at all.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    The Horde has always loved the war, it's always been at war with Alliance. So much that they had a gunship battle at freaking Lich King's doorstep. In fact the Horde was perfectly fine with Sylvanas' war until the plot demanded it wasn't.
    Agree to disagree. I had no issues with Thrall's Horde, hell, that's when I played Horde as my main last. I had no issues with Vol'jin's short reign. Not every Horde player wants to play a genocide simulator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    But frankly, most of the people that want an evil Horde also hate it when the Horde suffers any consequences at all.
    Exactly, they want all the real world-level darkness, without the Dresden, Nuremberg, or any other actual consequences for their actions.
    Rest in Power Aaron Danielson, David Dorn, Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr., and Jessica Doty Whitaker.
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    Oh my...

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Agree to disagree. I had no issues with Thrall's Horde, hell, that's when I played Horde as my main last. I had no issues with Vol'jin's short reign. Not every Horde player wants to play a genocide simulator.
    It was probably when the story was at its best because while there was tension, it wasn't an all out attempt at le epik battle between factions that will go nowhere because both factions are played by people that don't like being alienated.

  5. #165
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    I don't want to sound racist but if Calia becomes leader of the forsaken then I will lol at every forsaken player character I will ever see.
    She's even worse than Baine for Tauren LOL
    Calia has a excuse Baine doesn't.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Exactly, they want all the real world-level darkness, without the Dresden, Nuremberg, or any other actual consequences for their actions.
    "Chomping on baby elf skulls? EPIC METAL WE ARE SO EVIL AND COOL AND DARK."
    "You are evil and dark, you must be struck down."
    "NOOOO AAAAIIIEE BLIZZARD WHAT ARE YOU DOING I AM A PLAYER I DESERVE RESPECT."

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Agree to disagree. I had no issues with Thrall's Horde, hell, that's when I played Horde as my main last. I had no issues with Vol'jin's short reign. Not every Horde player wants to play a genocide simulator.

    The crux of the whole thing is that Calia is not a good fit for a Forsaken leader. She has absolutely nothing in common with them. That's it. I don't need Forsaken to be bloodthirsty murderers but that doesn't mean I want Calia to lead them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    Exactly, they want all the real world-level darkness, without the Dresden, Nuremberg, or any other actual consequences for their actions.
    You forget the good guys win only because the video game logic demands it, not because it makes sense. If the bad guys were actually as powerful and competent as they were made out to be then the good guys would be dead.

  8. #168
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Calia in Orgrimmar is terrible

    But Valeera is worse
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    How was Garrosh or Sylvanas racist lol. You just apply rl terms onto a fantasy story. You know your character murdered thousands upon thousands of people, right? Not very politically correct, right? You hear Golden say "genocide" you think "nazi". Be less predictable.
    Garrosh literally believed in and built the orc master race and called out anyone who wasn't an orc for not being an orc.

    Racism is a pressing problem in reality, sure, but fiction often mirror's reality. Also, fantasy racism is a pretty big theme in almost every generic fantasy story. Look at The Witcher, Game of Thrones, LoTR, DnD, etc etc. When it's not a disenfranchised fantasy race, it's an arrogant fantasy "master-race". The genre doesn't have to exclude a villain from having realistic personality flaws, and it's almost as if realistic flaws and problems make a fiction world feel more believable, funny how that works huh? It would feel more PC if they pretended like racism doesn't exist in WoW despite the insane amount of dictators, villains that want to kill everything, and bloody hatred between factions that align across specific racial boundaries.
    Last edited by Mellrod; 2020-11-22 at 08:44 PM.
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  10. #170
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Calia in Orgrimmar is terrible

    But Valeera is worse
    ^I'm indifferent to Calia being in Orgrimmar, and Veleera would be a horrible fit for the horde.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Calia has a excuse Baine doesn't.
    What excuse? Her lineage? If so Baine has it too, being the son of Cairne.


    She is bland and annoying little bit**
    Forsaken need someone with a claw to be remotely interesting. All the shady stuff they do is the only interesting thing about them.
    (And I don't even play this race, this should give you an idea how much I despise her, almost as much as alleria windrunner)

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    So I just watched this video clip and I see a lot of people complaining about Calia being in Orgrimmar and I can agree with the sentiment that she is not worthy to lead the Forsaken. No doubt she is a light abomination.
    Hahahaha... "worthy" to lead the Forsaken. That is one funny way of putting it. If anything the Forsaken should be eternally grateful that she lowers herself to lead this bunch of mass-murdering terrorists.

    I don't even know where to continue... Her "illegitimate claim" is the only real claim that exists, she IS the princess of Lordaeron and thus the only one of royal blood still "alive". Sylvanas was the illegitimate thief that stole the throne. No one else.
    Also, as should be apparent to anyone, Calia actually cares about her people, Sylvanas always considered them little more then meat shields she could use.

    Also cudos for inserting your fantasy of forcing Valeera into the Horde, after you folks abused her as a gladiator in her childhood. That she can stand being less then 10 miles from Orgrimmar is a miracle to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurutikka View Post
    I don't disagree with the forcing her to take an oath part but we don't know until it's actually been tried. The Horde has the capability and means to do it and attempt it at least, whether it will succeed we don't know. We don't know if it will work or like you said, she will just vanish and find refuge in Dalaran. But instead you should have been more specific and said Uncrowned lair, she would probably just bounce back to the Uncrowned lair and stay there which just happens to be in Dalaran.
    You do know the Blood Oath is not some kind of magic ritual yes? If you force her to swear it means nothing. Also good luck keeping one of the best spies on the planet under your control.
    Unless of course you wish to break her mind or brainwash her... which from your comments so far I think likely....

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Mellrod View Post
    Garrosh literally believed in and built the orc master race and called out anyone who wasn't an orc for not being an orc.

    Racism is a pressing problem in reality, sure, but fiction often mirror's reality. Also, fantasy racism is a pretty big theme in almost every generic fantasy story. Look at The Witcher, Game of Thrones, LoTR, DnD, etc etc. When it's not a disenfranchised fantasy race, it's an arrogant fantasy "master-race". The genre doesn't have to exclude a villain from having realistic personality flaws, and it's almost as if realistic flaws and problems make a fiction world feel more believable, funny how that works huh? It would feel more PC if they pretended like racism doesn't exist in WoW despite the insane amount of dictators, villains that want to kill everything, and bloody hatred between factions that align across specific racial boundaries.
    Fantasy racism allegories fail by default because the races are verifiably inherently different. A draenei is in all regards far superior to a human and a human is superior in all regards to a gnoll.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    What excuse? Her lineage? If so Baine has it too, being the son of Cairne.


    She is bland and annoying little bit**
    Forsaken need someone with a claw to be remotely interesting. All the shady stuff they do is the only interesting thing about them.
    (And I don't even play this race, this should give you an idea how much I despise her, almost as much as alleria windrunner)
    You're contradicting yourself. You like the Forsaken because they do shady, borderline evil stuff... then you hate Alleria Windrunner, who is one of the most controversial characters in the story, due to her mastery over the Void?

    So do you like goody goody two shoes like Calia, or shady figures like Alleria and some Forsaken? Which is it?

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I don't dislike Calia per se... I dislike that it might turn out that she becomes the leader of the forsaken which to me doesn't make much sense. They have no ties together and she is an alliance character. I don't see how she can be close to Alliance leader and then lead a faction that's inevitable will be at war with them.
    She has as much ties to the alliance as the undead. She is royalty of Lorderan.

  16. #176
    Its like people forget the undead dont actually want to be undead. They only followed Aylvannis because she psychically short circuited Arthus control on them and elevated her to some savior messiah complex. When given the choice to keep serving her or going home to their families they chose to go home. The forsaken are as war weary as the humans.

    In fact I am certain the majority of both the horde and the alliance are just plain done with the war as far as the commoners are concerned. There is no profit, no glory, he'll most of the generation dont even know what to get revenge for . It should at least simmer down to a cold war but the events of legion and bfa really should have cemented the alliance and horde should be allies against the like of Sylvannis.

    So here comes Calia without any force or coercion and says hey fellow undead do you know there is another way than trying to eat your relatives and killing everything and all the undead with minds left are like arooo? OK we can try.

  17. #177
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimmak View Post
    Its like people forget the undead dont actually want to be undead. They only followed Aylvannis because she psychically short circuited Arthus control on them and elevated her to some savior messiah complex. When given the choice to keep serving her or going home to their families they chose to go home. The forsaken are as war weary as the humans.

    In fact I am certain the majority of both the horde and the alliance are just plain done with the war as far as the commoners are concerned. There is no profit, no glory, he'll most of the generation dont even know what to get revenge for . It should at least simmer down to a cold war but the events of legion and bfa really should have cemented the alliance and horde should be allies against the like of Sylvannis.

    So here comes Calia without any force or coercion and says hey fellow undead do you know there is another way than trying to eat your relatives and killing everything and all the undead with minds left are like arooo? OK we can try.
    ^This pretty much sums up the forsaken.....excluding the RA because those guys are beyond fucked up.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimmak View Post
    Its like people forget the undead dont actually want to be undead. They only followed Aylvannis because she psychically short circuited Arthus control on them and elevated her to some savior messiah complex. When given the choice to keep serving her or going home to their families they chose to go home. The forsaken are as war weary as the humans.

    In fact I am certain the majority of both the horde and the alliance are just plain done with the war as far as the commoners are concerned. There is no profit, no glory, he'll most of the generation dont even know what to get revenge for . It should at least simmer down to a cold war but the events of legion and bfa really should have cemented the alliance and horde should be allies against the like of Sylvannis.

    So here comes Calia without any force or coercion and says hey fellow undead do you know there is another way than trying to eat your relatives and killing everything and all the undead with minds left are like arooo? OK we can try.
    t. Someone who's never played either through the Cataclysm zones or even big parts of the Vanilla experience. The Forsaken weren't sitting around feeling sorry that they couldn't be humans. Hell, there's a whole quest based on stating in plain text that the Forsaken have gotten over their self-pity and are all about the transhumanism undeath allows. They already readopted their Lordaeronian identity in Cataclysm, it was their pretext for their takeover of most of their lands. It isn't just the R.A.S. or just the military, virtually every quest reaffirms this. The people who deny this have never played Forsaken.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    How was Garrosh or Sylvanas racist lol. You just apply rl terms onto a fantasy story. You know your character murdered thousands upon thousands of people, right? Not very politically correct, right? You hear Golden say "genocide" you think "nazi". Be less predictable.
    Garrosh was without a doubt a racist and orc supremacist. That should not be in doubt if you paid any attention.

    Sylvanas wasn't though, I agree there. She just hates everyone and everything, especially but not exclusively the living. Decide yourself if that is better or worse then being racist.

  20. #180
    Bloodsail Admiral Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    She was a princess and she was being married off. When the scourge came she didn't stay and fight, she ran off. When the Forsaken came back around she didn't mediate or take the side of "her people", she stayed hidden.

    She has zero standing with the Forsaken. If anything the Forsaken should be hostile towards her, instead of her coming around when they actually needed her, she's coming around now when she isn't needed, but it sure seems the Forsaken are in an unstable situation; which further makes her look like she is trying to take advantage of a situation.

    And I'm not even going to bother explaining Sylvanas, if that needs to be explained to you, you need to go back and brush up on all the game's lore and story lines since War3.
    Maybe it's you who should read more. Here, i'll help: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Calia_Mene...rly_background

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