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  1. #21
    I hope there's a small price to pay for it though. I don't wanna complete the campaign then the switch to fly turns on automatically. Make a trainer that teaches it for 100g or something so I know to avoid it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    This is absolutely a better version of Pathfinder
    A polished turd is still a turd.

    No amount of rationalizing will make Pathfinder a good system. The entire philosophy of denying half of the players for the first part of the expansion, followed by infuriating the other half in the second half, is so deeply flawed that it should have been abandoned after WoD. Yes, that would take a LOT of work from Blizzard to come up with something better. But given the flagship nature of the game, and the absolutely colossal size of the playerbase and company, Blizzard SHOULD be doing better than "LOL Renown gusy! MOAR bettar!"

    Yes, this is objectively "better" than previous iterations of Pathfinder. But that's like saying eating stale breadcrusts off the dirty ground is better than eating moldy breadcrusts off the dirty ground.

    As for the "we play differently than you and you should respect that" argument: Maybe try applying that shit both ways and respect that people like me are SICK of the Pathfinder grounded experience that doesn't leave anything for flight afterwords. You want a fair situation? Then maybe start by letting flight have some content BEFORE IT'S OBSOLETE. Until then, you're basically only arguing selflishly for what you want without consideration for what others want.

    And as long as people continue to rationalize this garbage system, I WILL call them stupid for accepting something so obviously and clearly halfassed out of Blizzard. Even if you 100% only enjoy the grounded gameplay, you should be expecting and demanding better than what amounts to a copy/paste system.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-22 at 04:51 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    A polished turd is still a turd.

    No amount of rationalizing will make Pathfinder a good system. The entire philosophy of denying half of the players for the first part of the expansion, followed by infuriating the other half in the second half, is so deeply flawed that it should have been abandoned after WoD. Yes, that would take a LOT of work from Blizzard to come up with something better. But given the flagship nature of the game, and the absolutely colossal size of the playerbase and company, Blizzard SHOULD be doing better than "LOL Renown gusy! MOAR bettar!"

    Yes, this is objectively "better" than previous iterations of Pathfinder. But that's like saying eating stale breadcrusts off the dirty ground is better than eating moldy breadcrusts off the dirty ground.

    As for the "we play differently than you and you should respect that" argument: Maybe try applying that shit both ways and respect that people like me are SICK of the Pathfinder grounded experience that doesn't leave anything for flight afterwords. You want a fair situation? Then maybe start by letting flight have some content BEFORE IT'S OBSOLETE. Until then, you're basically only arguing selflishly for what you want without consideration for what others want. And as long as people continue to rationalize this garbage system, I WILL call them stupid for accepting something so obviously and clearly halfassed out of Blizzard.
    TBC and Wrath had the perfect system imo. With the exception that they locked zones like Storm Peaks behind flying of course.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    TBC and Wrath had the perfect system imo. With the exception that they locked zones like Storm Peaks behind flying of course.
    It was good for it's time. But I think Blizzard can do better.

    Flight doesn't need to be everywhere. We have The Maw which is a purely grounded zone. Ok, fine. But balance that with a zone parallel to that which is mostly flying. Or maybe just have one large zone that has super-high mountains that you need to fly to, along with caves and indoor buildings where you can't mount at all. WHY is that such a hard concept for people to grasp? That's what I don't get.

    That's why I take such a giant dump on people whenever they say something like "Pathfinder is fine". It's not. It's garbage. It ruins the fun of people who want flying, then later on it ruins the fun of people who want the grounded experience. What about that is good?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    A polished turd is still a turd.

    No amount of rationalizing will make Pathfinder a good system. The entire philosophy of denying half of the players for the first part of the expansion, followed by infuriating the other half in the second half, is so deeply flawed that it should have been abandoned after WoD. Yes, that would take a LOT of work from Blizzard to come up with something better. But given the flagship nature of the game, and the absolutely colossal size of the playerbase and company, Blizzard SHOULD be doing better than "LOL Renown gusy! MOAR bettar!"
    How about you stop complaining about systems when you clearly haven't even done basic reading about how they work. Renown is only similar to reputation in that it gives similar rewards, among a whole lot of other things that are quite significantly different.

    And as long as people continue to rationalize this garbage system, I WILL call them stupid for accepting something so obviously and clearly halfassed out of Blizzard. Even if you 100% only enjoy the grounded gameplay, you should be expecting and demanding better than what amounts to a copy/paste system.
    If everybody around you is apparently driving in the wrong direction, i'd suggest you check what side of the road you're on.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    So, this is double speak.

    Covenants are just "super reputations" that have many levels beyond exalted, but progressing through each level bar is fast. This is called Renown. The covenant campaign is gated by levels of renown. Meaning, you have to have kept up with your weekly chores in order to unlock it.

    The weekly chores are much lighter than BFA, Pathfinder is account wide so that's not really an issue. I think it will be easier. You're still going to grind your weekly chore to raise your level with your chosen group. It's just that instead taking a whole patch to grind thru single levels like revered and exalted, maybe getting 10% of the bar in a week, you grind your way through 10x as many levels and see yourself "level up" each week, which sometimes unlocks a covenant story chapter.

    I just want to point out the silly talking point that they aren't "reputation gated" when they are literally gated behind your covenant's campaign and renown level, which is just a more complex version of reputation.
    They have always stated the intention behind PF is to reward people who are playing the game consistently. Reputation in the past was a relevant gauge due to the necessity of WQs but after two expansions of players bitching about how WQs are a bad form of repeatable content it seems as if Blizzard is moving in another direction. With rep it's possible to fall behind on specific factions and you could easily end up in a situation where you had to exclusively grind only one to get where you needed to be. By moving it to the Covenant campaign there is less of an onus to feel like you need to complete specific trivial content to get a reward; instead, you are rewarded for just playing the game.

    I get that's not the exact compromise anti-PF pro-flyers want to see but it does make the acquisition of flying less prohibitive if you're the type of player that dislikes grinding reps.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Even if they rep gate the covenant campaign, its only one rep, vs the old requirement of all the damn reps. Plus its coming with 9.1 which is huge. Waiting on 9.2 is such a fucking downer, its way too much time.
    See this is how they get you. While rep was gated the end was pretty easy to reach as it usually took about 2.5-3 weeks to from Neutral to Exalted (At least with Legion/BFA; Prior ones are too far back for me to remember since I cap them asap). Renown on the other hand is gated and you can only achieve X amount of levels at a time. I'm would bet that Pathfinder will require Renown 40 which will take you 16 weeks. It does have a catchup to it, but at the same time will still take some time to grind out. Even if you wait until the last week you'll like be at the same amount of time or more on going from 1-40 since there is a weekly cap on it.

    So having it use renown rather than rep is a bit worse, but people will see it as better because it looks better. The bright side out of the whole thing though is that it will come with Patch 9.1 instead of 9.2. The downside is 9.2 will likely either have another A) No Fly Zone or B) another zone and you work on Pathfinder Part 2 for it. (Remember there is no Pathfinder 1 at launch like usual)

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    A polished turd is still a turd.

    No amount of rationalizing will make Pathfinder a good system. The entire philosophy of denying half of the players for the first part of the expansion, followed by infuriating the other half in the second half, is so deeply flawed that it should have been abandoned after WoD. Yes, that would take a LOT of work from Blizzard to come up with something better. But given the flagship nature of the game, and the absolutely colossal size of the playerbase and company, Blizzard SHOULD be doing better than "LOL Renown gusy! MOAR bettar!"

    Yes, this is objectively "better" than previous iterations of Pathfinder. But that's like saying eating stale breadcrusts off the dirty ground is better than eating moldy breadcrusts off the dirty ground.

    As for the "we play differently than you and you should respect that" argument: Maybe try applying that shit both ways and respect that people like me are SICK of the Pathfinder grounded experience that doesn't leave anything for flight afterwords. You want a fair situation? Then maybe start by letting flight have some content BEFORE IT'S OBSOLETE. Until then, you're basically only arguing selflishly for what you want without consideration for what others want.

    And as long as people continue to rationalize this garbage system, I WILL call them stupid for accepting something so obviously and clearly halfassed out of Blizzard. Even if you 100% only enjoy the grounded gameplay, you should be expecting and demanding better than what amounts to a copy/paste system.
    Sorry mate, but that isn't a rational argument, that's a wild rant that makes zero sense.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    It was good for it's time. But I think Blizzard can do better.

    Flight doesn't need to be everywhere. We have The Maw which is a purely grounded zone. Ok, fine. But balance that with a zone parallel to that which is mostly flying. Or maybe just have one large zone that has super-high mountains that you need to fly to, along with caves and indoor buildings where you can't mount at all. WHY is that such a hard concept for people to grasp? That's what I don't get.

    That's why I take such a giant dump on people whenever they say something like "Pathfinder is fine". It's not. It's garbage. It ruins the fun of people who want flying, then later on it ruins the fun of people who want the grounded experience. What about that is good?
    But your example would do the same exact thing you're saying. Half of the zone would be hated by people who want flying while the other half would be hated by people want to be grounded.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    See this is how they get you. While rep was gated the end was pretty easy to reach as it usually took about 2.5-3 weeks to from Neutral to Exalted (At least with Legion/BFA; Prior ones are too far back for me to remember since I cap them asap). Renown on the other hand is gated and you can only achieve X amount of levels at a time. I'm would bet that Pathfinder will require Renown 40 which will take you 16 weeks. It does have a catchup to it, but at the same time will still take some time to grind out. Even if you wait until the last week you'll like be at the same amount of time or more on going from 1-40 since there is a weekly cap on it.

    So having it use renown rather than rep is a bit worse, but people will see it as better because it looks better. The bright side out of the whole thing though is that it will come with Patch 9.1 instead of 9.2. The downside is 9.2 will likely either have another A) No Fly Zone or B) another zone and you work on Pathfinder Part 2 for it. (Remember there is no Pathfinder 1 at launch like usual)
    Not all players enjoyed grinding reps. For example, I got Pathfinder Part 1 in BoD. Then I quit the game for 8.2. When I came back, I grinded Revered with The Unshackled because I needed the Essence but completely neglected Mechagon until two weeks before 9.0 launched. (And I only did it because of the reintroduction of the rep buff. I actually tried to do it the first time they introduced the rep buff but I really, really, reallly strongly dislike daily repeatable content.) In this new system, that wouldn't happen as the content that PF is bound to is directly tied to my character's progression.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral bledgor's Avatar
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    Are people really complaining about having to get renown for flying? It is a keystone of the expansion (well covenants as a whole, but renown is a large basis of the power and rewards from them), you will get it by playing the expansion, if you hate it that much I very much suggest not playing this expansion, as this is a large system of it to be "annoyed" that you have to do.

    Reps I kinda got because largely they offered limited rewards and no real power for farming, renown is quite a bit different in that regard, and is tied to a large story element that you will continuously engage in.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Not all players enjoyed grinding reps. For example, I got Pathfinder Part 1 in BoD. Then I quit the game for 8.2. When I came back, I grinded Revered with The Unshackled because I needed the Essence but completely neglected Mechagon until two weeks before 9.0 launched. (And I only did it because of the reintroduction of the rep buff. I actually tried to do it the first time they introduced the rep buff but I really, really, reallly strongly dislike daily repeatable content.) In this new system, that wouldn't happen as the content that PF is bound to is directly tied to my character's progression.
    You do know that Renown grinding is exactly the same as rep grinding though, right? You'll unlock Renown by completing a chapter of your campaign (equivalent of leveling in a zone), 2 different weekly quests (similar to emissaries, but lasting the week rather than 3 days). That's if you stay caught up. If you fall behind you can earn some through dungeons/raids/pvp and emissaries (Callings). So the systems are pretty similar to various ones over the years.

    Also, if you swap covenants then you have to start over at that covenant (doesn't convert over) with the advantage of you returning you start back off where you were.

    Overall it is the same system as reputation with a different name and slightly different flavor to it. People who didn't earn Pathfinder likely won't work on Renown to get them either and if they do it'll be at the same rate they got Pathfinder. For the min/maxers they'll be at more of a disadvantage due to Renown being separate for each convenant.

    If you don't enjoy reps you won't enjoy renowns. Pathfinder isn't just limited to renowns either as there will be more requirements in 9.1. This is just all we know so saying "Because it's tied to power progression" doesn't change much. Like I said though it sounds better on paper, but in the end it won't be as better as you think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Are people really complaining about having to get renown for flying? It is a keystone of the expansion (well covenants as a whole, but renown is a large basis of the power and rewards from them), you will get it by playing the expansion, if you hate it that much I very much suggest not playing this expansion, as this is a large system of it to be "annoyed" that you have to do.

    Reps I kinda got because largely they offered limited rewards and no real power for farming, renown is quite a bit different in that regard, and is tied to a large story element that you will continuously engage in.
    Most aren't complaining about renowns. We are saying that renowns are the same thing as a reputation grind and it's only 1 part of the achievement that we know of so far.

    Most of renown is cosmetic (useless to most). Powerwise you'll end up with 3x 2% Stamina traits and your soulbind. If they removed the soulbind and made it unlockable in another way would you grind renown? Most wouldn't since it would be like rep rewards with a bunch of cosmetics.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    How about you stop complaining about systems when you clearly haven't even done basic reading about how they work. Renown is only similar to reputation in that it gives similar rewards, among a whole lot of other things that are quite significantly different.



    If everybody around you is apparently driving in the wrong direction, i'd suggest you check what side of the road you're on.
    Sigh...No one is complaining about Renown. This is about PATHFINDER. And in all the practical ways, in Pathfinder, Renown fills the same roll as reputation.

    As for the driving analogy, I could just as easily claim that you're in an echo chamber. Clearly not everyone agrees on the flying topic. Which is why I keep my arguments in favor of both flying and non-flying people getting a better situation. If you think this is a one-sided crusade by me being the only person who dislikes Pathfinder, then you haven't done your research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Sorry mate, but that isn't a rational argument, that's a wild rant that makes zero sense.
    Ah...the rallying cry of a person with no arguments left to make: Dismissing all points by calling it a rant.

    Welp...I guess you told me. Clearly I have been defeated by such detailed and resoundingly powerful points.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    But your example would do the same exact thing you're saying. Half of the zone would be hated by people who want flying while the other half would be hated by people want to be grounded.
    Sigh....

    Do you really not understand the difference between these two scenarios? Is this REALLY the logic you want to use?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Are people really complaining about having to get renown for flying? It is a keystone of the expansion (well covenants as a whole, but renown is a large basis of the power and rewards from them), you will get it by playing the expansion, if you hate it that much I very much suggest not playing this expansion, as this is a large system of it to be "annoyed" that you have to do.

    Reps I kinda got because largely they offered limited rewards and no real power for farming, renown is quite a bit different in that regard, and is tied to a large story element that you will continuously engage in.
    People are not complaining about Renown. They're complaining about Pathfinder and flight being time-gated once again.

    This is a subtle difference, but an important one.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Step 1. Create Renown
    Step 2. Make it function like rep, but with a different name
    Step 3. Remove rep from Pathfinder
    Step 4. Create quest chain requiring Renown to essentially the level of an Exalted rep
    Step 5. Add Quest Chain to Pathfinder

    Step 6. Profit!
    Unlike rep, renown has an automatic catch up mechanism built in. This is much bigger than you may think.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Sigh....

    Do you really not understand the difference between these two scenarios? Is this REALLY the logic you want to use?
    Ok then tell me the difference between having one entire zone that forces people to be grounded/to use flying mounts and a zone that does both at the same time. What, so that both sides can hate the zone equally?

  16. #36
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    If you removed items would you still grind raids? What an odd statement to say if you removed soulbinds. Oh no you have to play the game, and in an even less grindy way to unlock flying. It literally took minimal effort before it takes less now. How do you people wake up in the morning if doing shit like reps is such a drag to unlock flying for you (that is the minimal amount you have to do).

    Was it annoying having to wait till the last 1/3 of the expansion to get flying, yes that I will agree with, do I want flying unlockable day 1 though? No, it would simplify things too much, take away from like blizzard said enjoying the game. I think only having to wait till the first major content patch is great timing, and the fact they made the rep grind even easier is icing on the cake. Complaining about grinding it to me is like complaining you don't have enough flavors of ice cream to choose from, woe is to you.
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  17. #37
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    I've always hated Pathfinder not because it takes work but for a couple of other reasons. First, it's not tied to anything about flying. Second, it's broken into two parts.

    I've said this before but... I'd have a flying specific quest line that starts with an intro quest that explains why we can't fly in the new location. In SL it would be that you're in a new plane of existence. This is really just stage setting though. The rest of the chain would have the player gather things needed to overcome the effect - you're either gathering materials for a spell or to neutralize the effect. Have the chain take you all over the world, make it expose you to the entire set of zones. If you played TBC, think of the long, 30+ quest chain that leads to the Champion of the Naaru (and eventually Hand of Adal) titles.

    With the release of the .1 patch, have a short, final chain (maybe just one quest) where you cast the spell that enables flight. Done.

    Advantage - the entire thing is designed around flying. Why you can't do it, etc. Done right, you explore a lot and see much of the new world. More importantly, it has *purpose* it's not just mindless grinding to fill a bar. Too much of modern WoW is 'fill this bar. Now you can do X'.

    There's no reason to delay flight longer than a .1 patch. That they do it by making you jump through a second set of hoops is just make-work bullshit and, frankly, player hostile.
    Last edited by clevin; 2020-11-22 at 11:33 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Ok then tell me the difference between having one entire zone that forces people to be grounded/to use flying mounts and a zone that does both at the same time. What, so that both sides can hate the zone equally?
    No, it's so that more types of people can get what they want without having to have zero choice in the matter.

    How many times has this been explained: With Pathfinder you get the first half of the expansion grounded. Which is great for those that like the grounded experience because during that time the content is new and current. What this does, however, is screw the people who enjoy flying, because they're forced to slog through the grounded experience to unlock flight....but without the payoff of having content that's current when flying is available.

    And then when flying is finally available, the people who enjoyed the ground feel like they have no choice but to use flying. And even if they summon the willpower to not use it, they have to deal with the vast majority of people who ARE flying, which ruins their experience.

    But with a zone that has both flying and non-flying content that is current, yes....sometimes players will dislike having to go into the parts that they don't like. But the advantage is that they'll also have parts that they DO like. This is a real compromise. Everyone gets something of what they want. Including the devs, who can continue to release content without having to flip design philosophies entirely mid-expansion.

    Are some players still going to bitch that they don't want to have to do parts of the open world? Sure. But it won't be a blanket problem that effects the ENTIRE open world like Pathfinder.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    the past 4 expansions say otherwise. MoP had a 2 month gap between release and 5.1, WoD was 4 months 2 weeks, Legion was just under 2 months and BfA was 4 months 1 week. so estimating it at about 4 months is a solid guess. 4 months is also the exact timeframe it will take us to hit Renown 40, which is the max. and yeah they might increase it (probably will) but only the most cynical mind would suggest they would double it. I imagine they might increase it to 50 so that people don't just log in and immediately have flying but there's no way they are going to double it. also I doubt that we will get a new zone with 9.1
    Not all of those dates had major patches.5.1 and 6.1 were not major patches. In legion Blizzard split the patches in half to time gate. Blizzard has probably decided already that only even patches are major patches and we'll be waiting 9 to 10 months. They cannot be trusted until it is actually released.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Even if they rep gate the covenant campaign, its only one rep, vs the old requirement of all the damn reps. Plus its coming with 9.1 which is huge. Waiting on 9.2 is such a fucking downer, its way too much time.
    No one has said that 9.1 will be a major patch. Have you forgotten MoP and WoD? Did you forget blizzard deciding to split major patches up in legion for gating purposes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    You do know that Renown grinding is exactly the same as rep grinding though, right? You'll unlock Renown by completing a chapter of your campaign (equivalent of leveling in a zone), 2 different weekly quests (similar to emissaries, but lasting the week rather than 3 days). That's if you stay caught up. If you fall behind you can earn some through dungeons/raids/pvp and emissaries (Callings). So the systems are pretty similar to various ones over the years.

    Also, if you swap covenants then you have to start over at that covenant (doesn't convert over) with the advantage of you returning you start back off where you were.

    Overall it is the same system as reputation with a different name and slightly different flavor to it. People who didn't earn Pathfinder likely won't work on Renown to get them either and if they do it'll be at the same rate they got Pathfinder. For the min/maxers they'll be at more of a disadvantage due to Renown being separate for each convenant.

    If you don't enjoy reps you won't enjoy renowns. Pathfinder isn't just limited to renowns either as there will be more requirements in 9.1. This is just all we know so saying "Because it's tied to power progression" doesn't change much. Like I said though it sounds better on paper, but in the end it won't be as better as you think it is.
    So making the "rep grind," as you conflate it, tied to content I plan to be doing anyway instead optional bullshit content that has no relevance to me somehow makes it worse? I didn't have flying for 95% of BfA because I fucking hate dailies. My observation was that for me, personally, tying the "grind" to something I'm going to be doing anyway is a massive improvement. I understand for the anti-PF, flying-is-a-basic-human-right-outlined-in-the-Constitution group of players that this change is not nearly enough but these players won't be happy unless Blizzard makes flying like was in Cata/MoP again so that's not a particularly surprising take away.

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