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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Neither you nor Lucretia has responded to any of my points.
    Yes, we did. You just didn't like the answers and dismissed them.

    This is why I don't spend any time on courtesy when I see these kinds of arguments. I could spend hours crafting a masterful explanation of all the things bad about Pathfinder, and you(or someone with a similar response) would dismiss the entire thing with some version of "No u" or "Blizzard said so."

    This is also the lion's share of why I say people who think Pathfinder is good are stupid. They're not thinking. They're not using their brain. They're only accepting what's in front of them instead of stepping back and looking at the entire picture. They're just taking what's given to them instead of asking themselves "What if?". If you don't prefer the word "stupid", then use "complacent" or " "naive". They've fallen prey to one of the oldest tricks in the book, and let Blizzard anchor their expectations, without ever considering that there should be something better. And if you think Blizzard is doing that because they just want players to be happy, then You. Are. Being. Stupid!

    You've accepted that Renown is a "better" system because you've had your expectations anchored by the previous reputation-based system. That doesn't mean that Pathfinder is now good. It just means that it's slightly less terrible than it used to be. And while it's tempting to approve of any slight improvement of the situation, it's a bit like being complacent about your donut spare tire on your car. You don't replace the flat with the donut and then act like everything is fine(some people do, but again....they're being stupid). You get your ass to the nearest shop and get a real tire! And while you might be happy that the car is even able to move at all, it's most definitely NOT fine!

    That's what Pathfinder is: A donut spare tire. Perfectly acceptable as an emergency measure because Blizzard had to scramble to correct the horrible mistake during WoD. But not something that should have continued to be used indefinitely. Meanwhile people who defend Pathfinder are trying to come up with reasons why it's ok while the donut is already going bald! "No! No! Guys! It's ok! We took the cement bricks out of the trunk! There's less pressure on the donut! It's FINE!"



    But to take a further step back: Pathfinder might seem ok if you're happy with the grounded experience that Blizzard is selling right now. And it's ok to like that! But if you REALLY want to understand where I'm coming from, you first have to accept that for every person who thinks things are ok right now, there is AT LEAST one other person playing who dislikes the grounded slog. And that doesn't even consider the people who aren't playing anymore because they're sick of pathfinder and the no-flying philosophy it represents.

    Pathfinder is lazy. Pathfinder is hurting the overall game. Trying to force players to like or interact with a ground-only open world design is hurting the game. Taking away player agency is hurting the game.

    This is why I come down so hard on people who try to argue that pathfinder is "fine". It's not fine. It's barely working. It's syptomatic of an overall bankruptcy of creativity and innovation, where Blizzard doesn't ever actually give players anything new, but instead takes away agency and sells it back to us. And just because you don't agree with those reasons, because you "like" the current setup, because you've let blizzard define your expectations, doesn't make them any less true. Even if you're some kind of super-exeption who's come to the conclusion of liking the ground-only game through independent logic and thought, that STILL doesn't make it ok to dismiss the people like me who point out the very real problems with it, especially when they're arguing for everyone to get what they want.

    I fully expect all this to be dismissed or ignored. But there is the attempt anyway.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-24 at 12:19 AM.

  2. #62
    That's what we call going full Cowdog, a long winded explanation as to how people who like the game with Pathfinder are stupid, complacent or naive because SirCowdog's opinions are FACTS and if you think you're enjoying yourself you're stupid because Blizzard are tricking you, all based on an imaginary situation where half of WoW's players are secretly miserable and hate playing while countless more have quit for the exact reasons SirCowdog is listing.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    Pawpuur, this is pretty disingenous. I know you're trying to help but...

    Renown doesn't work like a Reputation.
    It works exactly like a reputation with the caveat I described. If you got a reward for grinding to 10%, 20%, 30% of revered along the way to exalted, using repeatable quests that reset daily/weekly, It would look pretty similar to Covenants rewards schedule.

    BFA had a ton of catch up mechanisms, from the world quest weekly event, the various rep boosting events, The war table being loaded with rep booster items, and later the ability to purchase account bound rep booster items from the existing factions. The problem here is that nothing was standardized, As you said there is prayer to the RNG gods involved as well as time gating and blizzard's intervention whenever they decided to do it for extra player engagement.

    Covenants avoid these pitfalls by having the catchup/alt mechanisms built in from the start. Which is what Blizzard's MO is - Try to make systems that take care of themselves so the developers have more bandwidth for other things.

    I am of course referring only to the renown system -- Other aspects of covenants like anima power, the mission table etc have nothing to do with this concept.

  4. #64
    The fact that pathfinder is still in the game is dumb. Just unlock flying then you hit max level, easy.

  5. #65
    Truly an advancement!

    You know what'd be really cool, if they released something where you simply unlocked flying with gold or something. THAT would be some cutting edge stuff.

  6. #66
    I can’t believe this thread got to 4 pages with no internet hero correcting all the sad souls that think flying is coming in 9.1.

    If past expansions are an indicator, Blizzard never calls the little patches between .2 and .3 “major content”. A “major content” update means a new raid, which means 9.2.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    TBC and Wrath had the perfect system imo. With the exception that they locked zones like Storm Peaks behind flying of course.
    I seem to remember storm peaks gave you a "rental" mount to play the zone.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Don't forget Pathfinder will require Renown which is in a way similar to reputation. The only difference is you don't need exalted with all factions.
    You only needed revered, not exalted, for Pathfinder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JessicaJones View Post
    My point is Im not going to do dailies to get flying if the dailies aren't giving me any reward. The only person the lack of flying really effects are my group members because I'm stuck on the ground. Also it's not complete laziness. There are bugs with the campaign - I xfer my dk from ally to horde and there's nothing in Zulduzar and I have to do the whole campaign from Uldir again with no option to skip.

    Blizz keep ramming useless quests down our throats over and over again, when all I want to do is M+, arena and raid. I don't need to do content that honourbuddy should be doing for me - MULTIPLE times.
    So you admit you bot. You should be playing the game, not having a bot play the game for you. That is textbook lzainess.

  9. #69
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    I hate the pathfinder. ActiBlizzard will never get another dollar from me until it's removed from the game.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by SL1200 View Post
    I hate the pathfinder. ActiBlizzard will never get another dollar from me until it's removed from the game.
    You are right and they should remove flying altogether with it.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I can’t believe this thread got to 4 pages with no internet hero correcting all the sad souls that think flying is coming in 9.1.

    If past expansions are an indicator, Blizzard never calls the little patches between .2 and .3 “major content”. A “major content” update means a new raid, which means 9.2.
    Yeah...no.

    Look, I'm probably one of the biggest outspoken people in regards to flying, and even I know that's not how it works. Not for advertising purposes, not for programming architecture. If Blizzard says "First major content patch" that's 9.1.

    Now...it's entirely possible there could be more 9.0.x patches than normal between now and then. But that's doubtful.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frinata View Post
    So! Good news amongst good news in the sets of interviews that are on the front page! Pathfinder is being divorced from Reputation, much like alot of other content that was gated by reputation.

    According to the interview quote above, it'll be unlocked via covenant campaign. The only way that I see it possibly being rep gated, is if they rep gate the Covenant Campaigns, but I've not been in the Beta, but I've not heard anything of the sort.

    I for one, am glad for this. Reputation should primarily be for cosmetic stuff, I feel, such as tabards, toys, and mounts. Gating other things like flying, quests, and Allied Races behind them was frustrating, more so when they elongated this process even further by halving all the reputation you get as well.
    Yay no rep farm! Farm renown and other stuff! :S Its nothing less and a bit more to farm tbh.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Step 1. Create Renown
    Step 2. Make it function like rep, but with a different name
    Step 3. Remove rep from Pathfinder
    Step 4. Create quest chain requiring Renown to essentially the level of an Exalted rep
    Step 5. Add Quest Chain to Pathfinder

    Step 6. Profit!
    pretty much,the people behind this LITERALY have some kind of sick disgust for the playerbase,i dont get it

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    pretty much,the people behind this LITERALY have some kind of sick disgust for the playerbase,i dont get it
    I can kinda get it. Renowned is more or less the new AP now that actual AP isn't directly tied to player power. The difference being this new ap is dooled out by a quest chain rather then grinded for.

    There is an arguements to delaying flying and it makes sense that if it must be earned it is attached to something you are going to be doing regardless. That said I dont see any harm in simply unlocking flying for everyone in 9.1 or 9.2 myself.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I can kinda get it. Renowned is more or less the new AP now that actual AP isn't directly tied to player power. The difference being this new ap is dooled out by a quest chain rather then grinded for.

    There is an arguements to delaying flying and it makes sense that if it must be earned it is attached to something you are going to be doing regardless. That said I dont see any harm in simply unlocking flying for everyone in 9.1 or 9.2 myself.
    Im fine with flying not being there at the start,dont think just unlocking it for everyone at patch x or y is best,because it would kinda render it pointless for annyone starting the game later,i think the recuirement should simply be to have the new zones discovered and maybe the main zone quests done,something that will take like a week,you get to see the zones as they intend and thats it

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    Im fine with flying not being there at the start,dont think just unlocking it for everyone at patch x or y is best,because it would kinda render it pointless for annyone starting the game later,i think the recuirement should simply be to have the new zones discovered and maybe the main zone quests done,something that will take like a week,you get to see the zones as they intend and thats it
    I honestly don't know how long it will take people to catch up on renowned I haven't looked down the quest line but I doubt it will be longer then a week once everything is unlocked.

    It's annoying but not all that big of a deal since you will be doing it for player power regardless.

  17. #77
    Yeah, just let us buy flying at maxlevel off the flight teacher like we used to. Horrible gating system again. They still like to express their hatred towards the playerbase via their game design and that's all there is to it.

    More so since they already locked the major xpac feature behind forcing us do all the zones stories in one go and not at our own discretion.
    Last edited by Eggroll; 2020-11-27 at 11:58 AM.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Yeah, just let us buy flying at maxlevel off the flight teacher like we used to. Horrible gating system again. They still like to express their hatred towards the playerbase and that's all there is to it.
    A bit of gating is fine,like have you explore the zones and do the zone main story is perfectly fine,they made the zones they want you to experience them not ignore them,the problem was that the gating in the past has been to much,making you get exalted and stuff,for new players specialy it felt even worse

  19. #79
    So when will we get flying - 9.1 first? Aka next summer?
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    BFA had a ton of catch up mechanisms, from the world quest weekly event, the various rep boosting events, The war table being loaded with rep booster items, and later the ability to purchase account bound rep booster items from the existing factions. The problem here is that nothing was standardized, As you said there is prayer to the RNG gods involved as well as time gating and blizzard's intervention whenever they decided to do it for extra player engagement.
    I appreciate what you're saying, but none of those are catch-up mechanisms.

    The required characteristic of a catch-up mechanism is that it allows a player who starts late on something to gain something much faster than a player who started at the beginning or earlier than the late player.

    The War Table wasn't a catch-up mechanism. The rewards were there from day 1, and didn't get any larger or easier to get later in the expansion.

    The only account-bound rep booster tokens required you to be Exalted. That's not a catch-up mechanism, that's a way to help your alts.

    The Weekly World Quests Event thing was a pretty minimal buff (in practical terms) that just encouraged you to painfully grind your face off. It was not, however, a catch-up mechanism.

    Not sure what you're referring to re: "various rep boosting events" so I can't comment on those. Perhaps you mean the only thing that even came close to being a "catch-up mechanism", which was the stuff before SL where Blizzard gave +100% to all Legion and BFA rep gains. Still not technically one, as it applied equally, but in practical terms it definitely acted as one, esp. as it included all gains, so questing to level gave pretty damn high reps.

    I can think of a lot of different ways you could have implemented a catch-up mechanism in BfA with rep, but they never really did, not even a de facto one, except the +100% buff very late in the expansion. Whereas, as we're both saying, the Renown system has an actual catch-up mechanism built in - if you fall behind, you get bonuses to help you catch up. And yes, good point re: Blizzard looking to add systems which take care of themselves, well put.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Djuntas View Post
    So when will we get flying - 9.1 first? Aka next summer?
    We don't know. But it seems plausible to expect 9.1 or 9.1.5.
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