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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post

    Well, as is my point. That was then, this is now.

    Back then he was evil to the core, the writers have now decided he was mind controlled.

    It is the same thing that happened to Kerrigan between Starcraft and Starcraft 2.

    Ignoring consistency too much makes a story worthless though, blizz constantly flips around and hopes people to get invested into it. Yet anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention will see the mess that is their overarching storyline.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Arthas behaving hugely out of character after putting on the helm is neither here nor there. Having him be puppeted by the Jailor after he puts on the hat is of course a retcon of, like @Combatbulter says, Arthas' mental killing of Ner'zhul and taking full control of the Scourge which we all have from his own perspective with no hint of a third party in sight. But it'd be less harmful in the sense that his Wrath appearance was already a massive departure from how he acted in WC3. DK Arthas was not a Saturday morning villain putting you in escapable death traps or killing his goons, but possibly the most effective character in the setting. The real trick is that his wrap sheet and general behaviour before putting on the hat is already so humongous that what he does from the end of TFT on is just icing on the cake even if we didn't previously have it black on white that his only issue with what happened was that he was playing second fiddle to Ner'zhul.

    Arthas being the Jailor on the other hand would be far worse than even a redemption given that a dude who was okay-ing going on hunting trips for women and kids and is involved in the closest the game's rating will allow to rape would be in charge of administering such for eternity. Actually, nevermind, the asspain on social media would be almost worth it if that's the ending they go with.
    Arthas is definitely getting a redemption of some sort. Blizzard showed their hand too early with the Afterlives: Bastion short and Uther throwing Arthas into the Maw.
    Narratively they are now essentially forced to have Uther redeem his failure by pulling Arthas back out, and since just throwing him back into the Maw will be fairly anticlimactic he will at worst be sent to Revendreth.

    Either that or he is completely dead/controlled by Sylvanas. Either way his redemption has already begun, now its just a matter of time until we see how it plays out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Ignoring consistency too much makes a story worthless though, blizz constantly flips around and hopes people to get invested into it. Yet anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention will see the mess that is their overarching storyline.
    You have to ignore some consistency when a story goes as long as WoW has, and Blizzard has done an admirable effort trying to play up the misguided/mind-controlled Arthas for years.
    Comparing TFT Arthas with the Arthas we are likely to get will create massive problems, but the same is true for many long-running stories that have far better writing.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Arthas is definitely getting a redemption of some sort. Blizzard showed their hand too early with the Afterlives: Bastion short and Uther throwing Arthas into the Maw.
    Narratively they are now essentially forced to have Uther redeem his failure by pulling Arthas back out, and since just throwing him back into the Maw will be fairly anticlimactic he will at worst be sent to Revendreth.

    Either that or he is completely dead/controlled by Sylvanas. Either way his redemption has already begun, now its just a matter of time until we see how it plays out.
    As said, I entirely agree that it's inevitable, much like the unifaction was inevitable once Sylvanas torched the tree because some bitch gave her lip. And much like its BFA predecessor, the question is only what form it takes and how much it shits the bed on its way there. None here have debated whether it'll happen, more so that doing so is a carfire and it is both bad on its own and retroactively turns his story to mush.

    Projecting forethought into this is disingenuous however, Wrath emphasized constantly that Arthas was the one in charge and even punted out the Lich King as a fusion of him and Ner'zhul to place it entirely on him. The whole business with his heart down the hole and Tirion destroying it was to explicitly deny an excuse. The culmination of his story in Rise of the Lich King is him taking full agency for what he did and kicking Ner'zhul out so he can be the Lich King and do the exact same thing except better. The Arthas redemption is in the works from Legion's Arthas cameos at earliest.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-11-22 at 01:25 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    As said, I entirely agree that it's inevitable, much like the unifaction was inevitable once Sylvanas torched the tree because some bitch gave her lip. And much like its BFA predecessor, the question is only what form it takes and how much it shits the bed on its way there. None here have debated whether it'll happen, more so that doing so is a carfire and it is both bad on its own and retroactively turns his story to mush.

    Projecting forethought into this is disingenuous however, Wrath emphasized constantly that Arthas was the one in charge and even punted out the Lich King as a fusion of him and Ner'zhul to place it entirely on him. The whole business with his heart down the hole and Tirion destroying it was to explicitly deny an excuse. The culmination of his story in Rise of the Lich King is him taking full agency for what he did and kicking Ner'zhul out so he can be the Lich King and do the exact same thing except better. The Arthas redemption is in the works from BFA at earliest.
    I dunno. Not that I think the writers always intended to have Arthas be given a redemption, but they have clearly been downplaying his evilness ever since TFT. They seemed to have constantly dropped hints that he was not as evil as first thought. Shadowlands is just the culmination of years upon years of making Arthas less evil.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post

    You have to ignore some consistency when a story goes as long as WoW has, and Blizzard has done an admirable effort trying to play up the misguided/mind-controlled Arthas for years.
    Comparing TFT Arthas with the Arthas we are likely to get will create massive problems, but the same is true for many long-running stories that have far better writing.
    Not to this degree, no. Tweaking small things here and there is fine, but if you change an overarching storyline and main characters to the level blizz does all the time, it becomes a problem and it will be rightfully be criticized for it.

  6. #26
    Are we talking about stratholme again? this shit was a debate for eons, that was a necessary evil at that time, anything after stratholme is a sin on Arthas shoulders and should be judged, only the hardcore fans of Arthas claim he did 'nothing wrong', he did a lot of things wrong as most of the main characters of wow, none are clean, i don't think we gonna see Arthas to much in this expansion if so blizz would have advertised the shit of him as his the most loved character

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I dunno. Not that I think the writers always intended to have Arthas be given a redemption, but they have clearly been downplaying his evilness ever since TFT. They seemed to have constantly dropped hints that he was not as evil as first thought. Shadowlands is just the culmination of years upon years of making Arthas less evil.
    Again, they made a point in Wrath about how it was solely Arthas and ditched Ner'zhul by having Arthas take over as @Combatbulter explained. To draw from a situation where they moved more culpability on Arthas by removing the single other party that could be responsible and had the hero character (Tirion) flat out reject his excuse that actually, they were always meaning to redeem him is baffling. It's the exact opposite of what they did in Wrath.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Again, they made a point in Wrath about how it was solely Arthas and ditched Ner'zhul by having Arthas take over as @Combatbulter explained. To draw from a situation where they moved more culpability on Arthas by removing the single other party that could be responsible and had the hero character (Tirion) flat out reject his redeemability that actually, they were always meaning to redeem him is baffling.
    Not to mention they hammered it down again in chronicle "their lore bible"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Not to mention they hammered it down again in chronicle "their lore bible"
    Did they? I can honestly not remember, though I guess it could have been in one of the Chronicle books I did not read.

    Regardless I do think at least some of the writers wanted to redeem Arthas, which would explain the constant flipflopping on his culpability.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  10. #30
    I mean, it's not going to work. And if they do pull that, it's going to be hilariously tone deaf. She basically exterminated the Darnassus night elf population, and the way the event unfolded gives very little wiggle room for them to say "it was calculated all along!!" when she basically did it to spite one dying night elf. She didn't exactly radiate "master tactician" during that cinematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Also, her philosophy is inherently flawed, because every soul is sent to the realm they would best belong to. Why should a war-like soul that enjoys battle complain about Maldraxxus? Why should a pious soul that enjoys dutiful service complain about Bastion? Why should Ursoc, a selfless defender of the wilds, complain that he was sacrificed for the future of Ardenweald and its people? Why should Sylvanas reserve for herself the right to speak for everyone, when we see countless people who are more than happy with their afterlives? Who gave her the right to decide what's best for everyone?
    I actually kinda get the impression that's the "lesson" that's going to be learned in shadowlands. Sylvanas is fucking it all up because she wants to be able to control the outcome of death, but everyone there is happy with how things go (or at least deserving of being unhappy).
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Did they? I can honestly not remember, though I guess it could have been in one of the Chronicle books I did not read.

    Regardless I do think at least some of the writers wanted to redeem Arthas, which would explain the constant flipflopping on his culpability.
    It is in volume 3

  12. #32
    Honestly you see this every time. Of course the baddies have reasons. Of course they justify their actions somehow.

    But as soon as we learn those motivations? We get the flood of "They did nothing wrong!"

    Of course they did everything wrong. Just because Illidan/Arthas/Sargeras/Garrosh/Sylvanas/Hitler had reasons that motivated them and were convinced they were doing right and justified actions, doesn't make it so. It doesn't excuse the murdering and violations.

    It's like in the minds of people the only people that are actually evil are those that go "I am evil without any other reason than that I love it!" That's not all that makes you evil. It's what you sacrifice that doesn't belong to you, to achieve your goals. The harm you willingly cause.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    That's not how it works.

    A villain with good intentions is not an anti-hero.

    It's a villain with good intentions.
    Exactly my thoughts.

    I am of the opinion that tearing down the Shadowlands system is the right thing to do and at the same time I don't feel like that whitewashes Sylvanas as a character.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is in volume 3
    That would explain it. Don't think I read much of anything from that.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by lukyl View Post
    Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
    servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal."
    (lous F.R)

    And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

    Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..
    I can see this happening, the toxic "i did it for all of us, so we can all be free" moment when she finally gets whats coming to her and she tries to explain it off.

    However, she isnt doing it for us all, she isnt doing it to free us all from this perceived forced servitude to the covenants, she is doing it for herself. Sylvanas doesnt want to be forced into servitutde, Sylvanas doesnt want to be tortured for the rest of eternity, Sylvanas knows where she will end up when she gets her real death, and she is trying to wriggle out of it.

    If Blizz choose the obvious, she did it for us all, she was trying to save us all from this terrible fate route, it will be such a waste and a total cliche. She killed all those people, to save all those people, from the afterlife...

  16. #36
    I could see Arthas forced to fight for Sylvanas as penultimate boss when we finally dispatch her.

    Bring back defile!

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Exactly my thoughts.

    I am of the opinion that tearing down the Shadowlands system is the right thing to do and at the same time I don't feel like that whitewashes Sylvanas as a character.
    On the actual topic of the thread, what others said summarizes it. The intent such as it is that after having Sylvanas be a motiveless drone in BFA they're now trying to breathe some characterization back into her by having her be right in the diagnosis - 'The Shadowlands are a bit fucked', but wrong in the solution of helping a giant blue man destroy reality.

    If I was to give them somewhat more credit I'd also say that Sylvanas going on about how she'll set everyone free is self-deception and the consistent bit of her Golden-characterization of projecting her own struggles and issues onto everyone else.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    On the actual topic of the thread, what others said summarizes it. The intent such as it is that after having Sylvanas be a motiveless drone in BFA they're now trying to breathe some characterization back into her by having her be right in the diagnosis - 'The Shadowlands are a bit fucked', but wrong in the solution of helping a giant blue man destroy reality.

    If I was to give them somewhat more credit I'd also say that Sylvanas going on about how she'll set everyone free is self-deception and the consistent bit of her Golden-characterization of projecting her own struggles and issues onto everyone else.
    Sylvanas projecting is probably the most likely outcome if we assume the writers know what they are doing.

    Sylvanas feels hopeless and abandoned by her family, so she assumes all Forsaken are hopeless and will be abandoned by their families.
    Sylvanas was broken by the destruction of her homeland, so she expects Delaryn to be similarly broken.
    Sylvanas fears death and being judged for her actions, so she assumes everyone else will also be afraid of death and the consequences of their actions.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #39
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    That would be an insane stretch, with BfA still being fresh in our memory.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Gotta love some people bending over backwards trying to whitewash Arthas and downplay the number of his crimes, claiming he's "not as bad as Sylvanas!". Just say you hate female characters beating your precious Bolvars and be done with it. Just a simple fact that Arthas was THE ONE who created Sylvanas the banshee, the warped undead, makes him indirectly responsible for every evil shit she's committed. On top of his own crimes.
    That's not at all how this works. In that case we can say that it was Ner'zhul's fault that Arthas became the monster that he was. Sylvanas being redeemed after what she did to Teldrassil is stupid, no matter what excuse she has.

    And why are you saying people hate female characters because they don't like Sylvanas? How is that fair? What if someone said that if Blizzard doesn't end up killing Sylvanas it's because shes female and they don't have the guts. I mean, they did go back 4 expansion just remove the word "bitch" from being said against precious Queen Sylvanas.

    You know who's a good female character? Tyrande. Inb4 "fUcKiNg EdGy NiGtH eLvEs WaAaAh"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Erm, so the russian post was something like this...

    Nobody can understand me. but in English I cannot express this idea.

    The thing is. that the death of the elves in old old stories and legends. was separate from the fate of the human race. If orcs and other "dark" ones retired to worlds in the style of Maldraxus. and people into something like Bastion. and there many many cycles, passing the path of correction, reincarnated back into the same or a similar world. Then the fate of the Elves was different - they are the Children of the Stars.

    Their Spirit was different from the human in the first place. the ability to conduct the Force. what for a man was an exorbitant fantasy - Magic. the elves were simply in their very essence. Therefore, instructing the first Sorcerers and creating Orders of Magic in all available worlds. they drifted away from mortals. precisely because of the different future after death. Elves are not immortal. but simply living up to that Measure. where they themselves feel. that it's time to leave. since life experience has already been exhausted. and tired of life exceeds the joy of being in the body.

    All these Maldraxus. Bastions. and Rivendreta are drawn from various old stories and legends. which have found their reflection. in a variety of science fiction novels over the past 250 years. Lords of Magic was one of the first games to attempt to map data from intricacies. Heroes the second. Blizzard with all due respect. to their perverse ideas in some aspects. were the last to try to broaden the human perception of the interweaving of galaxies. outside of science known to people. that is, outside the physical concept of reality in which we are.

    Perhaps the leaders of this company are sure or know. that after death, people clump with such things. after all, one of the founders of the company is an open mason. not hiding it.
    Edit: Oh it's deleted

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