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  1. #41
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neotokyo View Post
    Magnus did nothing wrong.... crap wrong game... She may have good intentions but as other have said it in no way makes her a good guy or even an anti-hero. She has done a lot wrong.
    Well, it was the same with Illidank. He did a lot of VERY questionable stuff, yet in Legion we were all buddy buddy with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  2. #42
    Is anyone actually doubting the self insert writer is going to do anything but let his hot topic waifu pull a 'i was doing it to save you all' redemption and expects the players to scream "omg yaaass qweeeenn" when she does?
    http://theeorzeanfrontier.blogspot.co.uk/ Neckbeard rambling about this weeaboo trash

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerule View Post
    Honestly you see this every time. Of course the baddies have reasons. Of course they justify their actions somehow.

    But as soon as we learn those motivations? We get the flood of "They did nothing wrong!"

    Of course they did everything wrong. Just because Illidan/Arthas/Sargeras/Garrosh/Sylvanas/Hitler had reasons that motivated them and were convinced they were doing right and justified actions, doesn't make it so. It doesn't excuse the murdering and violations.

    It's like in the minds of people the only people that are actually evil are those that go "I am evil without any other reason than that I love it!" That's not all that makes you evil. It's what you sacrifice that doesn't belong to you, to achieve your goals. The harm you willingly cause.
    I can't even think of a villain who sees themselves as evil. Even N'Zoth, an Old God (who are portrayed as the most evil monsters in the franchise), genuinely believed he was saving Azeroth from "what is to come".

    That's right, Blizzard managed to give sympathetic motivations even to a horrid, disgusting mass of tentacles and mouths.

    So really Sylvanas is nothing special, and as I said, you have to remember that this game's target audience is teens from 12 to 18 years of age. You can't just say that Sylvanas was "right all along", that sends a terrible message, because it basically means that genocide is good so long as it's done for a reason. That's an awful message, which is why there's a 0% chance that Blizzard pretends Sylvanas was right all along. The media and social networks would RIP THEM APART if they dared to insinuate such a thing.

    It's too much of a delicate subject. You can't say that X was good all along, when X literally committed genocide and smirked. It's not going to happen. No sane corporation that wants to keep a good image to the public would be that stupid to send such a horrible message to the audience.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-22 at 04:58 PM.

  4. #44
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    I don't think "freedom of choice in the afterlife" is her exact plan, she wants to break death altogether so it doesn't matter anymore. She has brought up that, as it stands, Azeroth faces an apocalypse on a bi-weekly basis and the whole planet's population spends all their time fighting for survival against cosmic assholes. In essence, this doomed world is a prison. One by one we're starting to get picked off until none of us are left.

    So, if she makes death irrelevant, suddenly we don't have to spend all our time fighting for survival because ... surviving doesn't matter. We'd be free.

    She seems to have gotten this idea in her head when she committed jump-off-ICC, only to get sucked into the Maw. I think she feels as if she doesn't deserve to go to the Maw, and at the time perhaps she didn't. I think the Jailer is manipulating her, it was through his intervention that she went to the Maw, and he's used her fear of eternal damnation and torture to spur her into being his willing minion without realizing she's been duped. Had she become, I don't know, a necrolord or something when she died instead I highly doubt she'd be bothering with breaking death at all. Think of it this way, Garrosh was a huge dick. He didn't go straigh to the Maw, he went to Revendreth. Kel'thuzad was a FAR bigger asshole than Sylvanas. He was a completely willing servant of the Scourge, and yet he didn't go to the Maw. He went to Maldraxxus. So then why did Sylvanas go straight to the Maw? 'Cause Jailer.

    This also fits in with the "there can be no hope!" night elves suddenly turning on everybody when they're necro'd. They die, go to the Maw instead of where ever they're supposed to go, realize this is all there is for them (and get upset Elune doesn't appear to care or save them), and immediately join Sylvanas in breaking death. Long story short, the Maw is a VERY convincing argument that death should be broken and the Jailer (and later, Sylvanas) has used sticking people in it as a tool to gain support.

    I think, ultimately, Sylvanas will become another MU Gul'dan in the sense that she is playing with cosmic fire she fancies herself an expert of, but ultimately knows too little about. She'll end up deleted because of it after her goals start to conflict with her benefactor, who likely gives zero fucks about our freedom from the fight to survive.


    ----

    As for the Jailer himself, his story seems to be inspired from Greek mythology. The titans were broken up and then chained in Tartarus (the Greek version of the Maw) for all eternity. The Jailer is missing a huge piece of his core and is chained up in the Maw, he may also literally be a titan of some sort. Should be interesting to see how this unfolds.
    Last edited by Oneirophobia; 2020-11-22 at 05:19 PM.

  5. #45
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post

    You know who's a good female character? Tyrande. Inb4 "fUcKiNg EdGy NiGtH eLvEs WaAaAh"
    Tyrande? a good female character? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Oh god i can't stop laughing.

    I mean i know that your avatar paints the picture, but that is too funny.

  6. #46
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Is anyone actually doubting the self insert writer is going to do anything but let his hot topic waifu pull a 'i was doing it to save you all' redemption and expects the players to scream "omg yaaass qweeeenn" when she does?
    Morally Grey™ writing inc

    Edit: @Oneirophobia that bit never made much sense to me. Why would pre BfA Sylvanas be sent directly to the Maw? She certainly wasn't any worse (at that point) than, let's say, Kael.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2020-11-22 at 08:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    That's not at all how this works. In that case we can say that it was Ner'zhul's fault that Arthas became the monster that he was. Sylvanas being redeemed after what she did to Teldrassil is stupid, no matter what excuse she has.

    And why are you saying people hate female characters because they don't like Sylvanas? How is that fair? What if someone said that if Blizzard doesn't end up killing Sylvanas it's because shes female and they don't have the guts. I mean, they did go back 4 expansion just remove the word "bitch" from being said against precious Queen Sylvanas.

    You know who's a good female character? Tyrande. Inb4 "fUcKiNg EdGy NiGtH eLvEs WaAaAh"
    Acutally it wasn't, ultimately, Arthas has done everything out of his own free will, Sylvanas was 1) killed 2) irreparably perverted into an undead against her will. Arthas had multiple chances to back down yet he only doubled down on his path. How can you not see the difference?

    I say that because only because Sylvanas is a female people give her extra shit. Do you not see whenever topic of Sylvanas comes up drones come out of the woodwork and repeat this tired spiel how "Sylvanas still exists because the head writer is a fanboy wants to fuck her"? Because they only see her as a fap material and nothing else. Because she's a female character, she can't do anything worthwhile or she's a Mary Sue and writer's waifu. Nothing of the sort ever happens with male characters. When they're powerful, they're powerful, not because the writer wants to fuck them.

    Not to mention, in WHAT FUCKING WORLD a fanboy would turn his waifu into the most hated character in the game, would shit on her character and diminish her history? Get a reality check.


    I don't mind Tyrande, I feel sorry for her, she's being constantly shat on by Blizz. Actually, there's not a single character that's been consistent in WoW.
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-11-22 at 09:25 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Those people are the writers though. This isnt something that has just been pulled out of thin air, the writers made it clear way back in WotLK that Arthas was not entirely himself since he put on the crown, the only thing to debate is whether it is light suggestions or complete mind control.
    Now that the latest short story came out the writers seem to be doubling down on the mind control.

    Comaplin about it all you want, but it is still sadly the way the story has been written.
    idk where you get the mind control part. if anything, the latest short story confirms that the helm corrupts you, makes your evil side dominant. not that the jailer is now suddenly your big boss controlling every thought.
    if that was so, the stories of both ner'zhul and arthas wouldnt make sense anymore.
    from what weve seen so far, the helm corrupts you, makes you evil and kill people/turn them undead. however, the jailer cant control what a lich king does.
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Gotta love some people bending over backwards trying to whitewash Arthas and downplay the number of his crimes, claiming he's "not as bad as Sylvanas!". Just say you hate female characters beating your precious Bolvars and be done with it. Just a simple fact that Arthas was THE ONE who created Sylvanas the banshee, the warped undead, makes him indirectly responsible for every evil shit she's committed. On top of his own crimes.
    this isnt a gender discussion, so dont try to make it one.
    sylvanas beating bolvar was just a badly told story. it came completely out of the blue, and after people waited 10+ years for bolvar to make a big move as LK. then in legion and bfa, bolvar was portrayed as a schemer whos slowly gathering power again. only to get instantly defeated by sylvanas like hes nothing.
    blizz simply set it up wrong (people where expecting bolvar to do smth, not get stomped), they didnt explain HOW she was suddenly on LK level (they explained afterwards, but thats when the damage is already done, they shouldve told players BEFORE the cinematic)

    as so often, blizz failed at the most basic things in storytelling. every half-competent writer couldve told you that people wont like it that way
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-11-22 at 09:57 PM.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by lukyl View Post
    Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
    servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal."
    (lous F.R)

    And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

    Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..
    Who actually states “Arthas did nothing wrong?” He betrayed his friend, he betrayed his own troops, he turned everyone he killed into mindless slaves to rule over, and he did this all while seeking revenge, not justice.
    Sylvanas, while not being better, is (possibly as not confirmed) trying to set everyone free from the fear of death and bring everyone to an equal existence.
    Arthas wanted slaves, Sylvanas wants (again, presumably) people to live free of fear of mortality and ending wars based on their differences as everyone would be the same.
    They are both doing evil things, the difference is that Sylvanas (so far) has never been shown to want mindless slaves to rule over.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    idk where you get the mind control part. if anything, the latest short story confirms that the helm corrupts you, makes your evil side dominant. not that the jailer is now suddenly your big boss controlling every thought.
    if that was so, the stories of both ner'zhul and arthas wouldnt make sense anymore.
    from what weve seen so far, the helm corrupts you, makes you evil and kill people/turn them undead. however, the jailer cant control what a lich king does.


    this isnt a gender discussion, so dont try to make it one.

    sylvanas beating bolvar was just a badly told story. it came completely out of the blue, and after people waited 10+ years for bolvar to make a big move as LK. then in legion and bfa, bolvar was portrayed as a schemer whos slowly gathering power again. only to get instantly defeated by sylvanas like hes nothing.
    blizz simply set it up wrong (people where expecting bolvar to do smth, not get stomped), they didnt explain HOW she was suddenly on LK level (they explained afterwards, but thats when the damage is already done, they shouldve told players BEFORE the cinematic)

    as so often, blizz failed at the most basic things in storytelling. every half-competent writer couldve told you that people wont like it that way
    I don't, people who bring up Danuser and "his waifu" do

  11. #51
    I don't think she did anything wrong anyway. Let these peace lovers go roll gnomes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    idk where you get the mind control part. if anything, the latest short story confirms that the helm corrupts you, makes your evil side dominant. not that the jailer is now suddenly your big boss controlling every thought.
    if that was so, the stories of both ner'zhul and arthas wouldnt make sense anymore.
    from what weve seen so far, the helm corrupts you, makes you evil and kill people/turn them undead. however, the jailer cant control what a lich king does.


    this isnt a gender discussion, so dont try to make it one.
    sylvanas beating bolvar was just a badly told story. it came completely out of the blue, and after people waited 10+ years for bolvar to make a big move as LK. then in legion and bfa, bolvar was portrayed as a schemer whos slowly gathering power again. only to get instantly defeated by sylvanas like hes nothing.
    blizz simply set it up wrong (people where expecting bolvar to do smth, not get stomped), they didnt explain HOW she was suddenly on LK level (they explained afterwards, but thats when the damage is already done, they shouldve told players BEFORE the cinematic)

    as so often, blizz failed at the most basic things in storytelling. every half-competent writer couldve told you that people wont like it that way
    Think this boils down to people having favorites and their own head canon/fantasy. Fans of LK assumed he would be some powerful entity even though it’s never been shown. He simply has the willpower to wield the crown without giving in to the whispers. His power level was never shown out of being a Paladin. He doesn’t even have the help of Frostmourne.
    Sylvanas, meanwhile, has been shown to be a capable fighter and tactician, while also having decent strength from her banshee powers, as well as being a lithe and agile fighter as a ranger.
    In a 1v1 she might have actually been able to beat him, or put up a decent fight before losing. She even held her own against Arthas for a bit before he chased her off with the full extent of his helm and Frostmourne.
    The fact her powers weren’t revealed until afterwards makes no difference. Not everything needs revealed beforehand, and sometimes it actually makes a better narrative to not know it until afterwards. Some people actually enjoy wondering how a character previously thought to be weaker than another can beat them. There’s a build up to it.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Well, it was the same with Illidank. He did a lot of VERY questionable stuff, yet in Legion we were all buddy buddy with him.
    Most of the people Illidan wronged were either dead or too old and tired of his shit to give a fuck anymore, hence why Tyrande and Malfurion were not sad to his ass go. Maiev, yeah she was just steps short of going full yandere but hopefully her brother pulled her back from the edge.

  14. #54
    Just wait for ARTHAS to be Arthas did nothing wrong 2.0.

    There must always be a jailer. Either Arthas or Sylvanas is getting Kerrigan'd for sure.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  15. #55
    You misunderstand her and probably on purpose.

    What Sylvanas finds unfair is that SHE would have been punished for HER crimes after death.

    She literally expected to be rewarded with a heavenly afterlife when she threw herself off of Icecrown and was disappointed (most likely through the intervention of the Jailer, else she'd have ended up in Revendreth).

    She refuses to believe that she deserves to be punished for all the evil shit she pulled even as early as Wrath, so obviously EVERYONE ELSE is wrong and the system is rigged against her.

    As a result of her delusions she has decided that she will rather murder everyone alive to destroy the entire system of reality then suffer her just fate.

    That is really all there is to this character. She is a psychopath that has decided that her own fate is more important then the fate of million and billions of other souls in the cosmos.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You misunderstand her and probably on purpose.

    What Sylvanas finds unfair is that SHE would have been punished for HER crimes after death.

    She literally expected to be rewarded with a heavenly afterlife when she threw herself off of Icecrown and was disappointed (most likely through the intervention of the Jailer, else she'd have ended up in Revendreth).

    She refuses to believe that she deserves to be punished for all the evil shit she pulled even as early as Wrath, so obviously EVERYONE ELSE is wrong and the system is rigged against her.

    As a result of her delusions she has decided that she will rather murder everyone alive to destroy the entire system of reality then suffer her just fate.

    That is really all there is to this character. She is a psychopath that has decided that her own fate is more important then the fate of million and billions of other souls in the cosmos.
    That'd be fine if we didn't find out that way worse people were given more lenient treatment and landed Revendreth or Maldraxx.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Danvash View Post
    Wasn't he being mind controlled by the Legion and Ner'zhul though? Or has that been retconned to be the Jailer now?
    At no point has Arthas been mind controlled. Not as a DK or as the Lich King. The whole mind control thing is people wanted to have their Arthas redemption while he has done more worse things than others who they don't want redeemed.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    At no point has Arthas been mind controlled. Not as a DK or as the Lich King. The whole mind control thing is people wanted to have their Arthas redemption while he has done more worse things than others who they don't want redeemed.
    While mind control is indeed not the right word to use let's not behave like he was not under the influence of Nerzgul/Jailer and pretty much soulless after shadowmourne, he indeed did awful things and he needs to be judge but let's not try to claim that there was no external influence in his decisions and fate, who are the 'others' they don't want to redeem?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    That'd be fine if we didn't find out that way worse people were given more lenient treatment and landed Revendreth or Maldraxx.
    As I said, her going straight to the Maw is likely not correct and a manipulation by her new boyfriend. She would have definately been send to Revendreth though and really, the way you know Sylvanas, do you think she would have the humility to regret her crimes? More then likely her rehab in Revendreth would have failed and she would have ended in the Maw in the end.

    And frankly, Kael and Garrosh had better reasons then her. At least at first. Her only goal was her revenge on Arthas, then her own survival. She is defianely a worse person.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    idk where you get the mind control part. if anything, the latest short story confirms that the helm corrupts you, makes your evil side dominant. not that the jailer is now suddenly your big boss controlling every thought.
    if that was so, the stories of both ner'zhul and arthas wouldnt make sense anymore.
    from what weve seen so far, the helm corrupts you, makes you evil and kill people/turn them undead. however, the jailer cant control what a lich king does.


    this isnt a gender discussion, so dont try to make it one.
    sylvanas beating bolvar was just a badly told story. it came completely out of the blue, and after people waited 10+ years for bolvar to make a big move as LK. then in legion and bfa, bolvar was portrayed as a schemer whos slowly gathering power again. only to get instantly defeated by sylvanas like hes nothing.
    blizz simply set it up wrong (people where expecting bolvar to do smth, not get stomped), they didnt explain HOW she was suddenly on LK level (they explained afterwards, but thats when the damage is already done, they shouldve told players BEFORE the cinematic)

    as so often, blizz failed at the most basic things in storytelling. every half-competent writer couldve told you that people wont like it that way
    The latest short sorry is definitely a bit vague, but it does imply that the Helm is somehow linked to the Jailer and his plans for omnicide, and that accepting its powers will change you to try and carry out those plans.

    Now whether this is technically mind control or just strong suggestion is a question of semantics, but there is some influence exerted by the Helm that the writers have decided is a thing. Bolvar fought it off for as long as he could, Arthas is likely to have fallen to it, and Sylvanas does not have it.
    Following this train of logic we are left with Arthas having a plausible road to redemption, even if it would be a retcon to his character in TfT and WotLK.

    It isn't ideal, but it is what we have to work with, so we might just learn to live with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    At no point has Arthas been mind controlled. Not as a DK or as the Lich King. The whole mind control thing is people wanted to have their Arthas redemption while he has done more worse things than others who they don't want redeemed.
    Clearly you have not read the latest short sorry published by Blizzard then. That story clearly established a new piece of lore that all but confirms Arthas was being manipulated, if not fully mind controlled by the Jailer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    That'd be fine if we didn't find out that way worse people were given more lenient treatment and landed Revendreth or Maldraxx.
    Like who? Kel'thuzad is the only one I can think of, and I am not sure he wasn't actually sent to the Maw originally.
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