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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post


    Like who? Kel'thuzad is the only one I can think of, and I am not sure he wasn't actually sent to the Maw originally.
    Arthas? In his cinematic it's implied he wasn't meant for the Maw. Also, the campaign quests mention someone who destroyed whole planets and got sent to Revendreth, Theolen Krastinov (sic!) got sent to Revendreth, some other examples https://wow.gamepedia.com/Category:Sinstones Not every one applies though

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The latest short sorry is definitely a bit vague, but it does imply that the Helm is somehow linked to the Jailer and his plans for omnicide, and that accepting its powers will change you to try and carry out those plans.

    Now whether this is technically mind control or just strong suggestion is a question of semantics, but there is some influence exerted by the Helm that the writers have decided is a thing. Bolvar fought it off for as long as he could, Arthas is likely to have fallen to it, and Sylvanas does not have it.
    Following this train of logic we are left with Arthas having a plausible road to redemption, even if it would be a retcon to his character in TfT and WotLK.

    It isn't ideal, but it is what we have to work with, so we might just learn to live with it.

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    Clearly you have not read the latest short sorry published by Blizzard then. That story clearly established a new piece of lore that all but confirms Arthas was being manipulated, if not fully mind controlled by the Jailer.

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    Like who? Kel'thuzad is the only one I can think of, and I am not sure he wasn't actually sent to the Maw originally.
    but that just wouldnt make sense when we apply it on WC3. assuming the dreadlords truly work with the jailer, they and ner'zhul would work together. but ner'zhul manipulated and killed them all/lead them to their deaths, one by one. if he did the jailers bidding, the nathrezim wouldnt be his enemies. however, they clearly were.
    same thing in WotLk, where mal'ganis returns to kill arthas. if arthas was the jailers pawn, he and mal'ganis wouldnt be enemies.

    all of this leads me to believe that the helm, while making the wearer more "evil", doesnt force the wearer under the jailers control. you turn into a bad person, but that person is still yourself, with all the control over yourself.
    Last edited by Houle; 2020-11-23 at 12:06 AM.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Same thing with the other Windrunner maniacs, really.
    I'll bite. Remind me how many innocents "other Windrunner maniacs" killed? Order of magnitude will suffice. You can count them both together.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    @Super Dickmann



    The point is that Arthas has both a sympathetic cause (wanting to save his people from the Scourge) as well as a scapegoat to offload his culpability (Helm of Domination mind control)

    Sylvanas only had a sympathetic cause in defeating the Lich King until his defeat, after which her actions have no justifiable cause for her evil deeds. More importantly though is that she does not have a scapegoat for culpability like Arthas does, given what we know we have to assume she is doing all the evil stuff like burnig down Teldrassil and raising the survivors of her own free will, which immediately makes her come off worse.


    Les us compare two moments from each character to contrast:

    Arthas:
    Purge of Stratholme. Seen as a questionable act at best and oftne declared his darkest moment and most definitely done by hiw own free will even with Mal'ganis goading him. This act is done by his genuine desire to do good and help his people, he decides to do this evil thing because he considered the realm as a whole more important.
    Unleashing the Scourge. Causes the death of potentially thousands and launches the various kingdoms into disarray. No doubt given that this is evil, all the characters acknowledge it as so. Done under the influence of the Helm of Domination, which we can now assume to at least some extent bends you to the Jailers will.
    So in short Arthas had either justifiable cause, or an exoerating event that makes a redemption possible. It will still feel weird since it would be a retcon from how he was shown in most of WotLK, but even then Blizzard planted the seeds of his redemption with his guilt, and his seeming remorse when he dies.

    Sylvanas:
    Human experimentation. Kidnaps and experiments on live subjects to create a new plague of Undeath. Justifiable cause being that she wants to defeat the Lich King, a known and credible threat. Done entirely by her own free will despite knowledge that doing so makes her a hypocrite.
    Burning of Teldrassil: Burns down Teldrassil, at that point filled with almost nothing but civilians, destroying the civilization and making its inhabitants refugees and possibly an endangered species. Done for the purpose of sparking an even more destructive war with the end goal being more casualties. As far as we known done entirely be her own free will.
    Sylvanas has done her evil acts of her own free will (that we know of), and her most justifiable endgoal was revenge on the Lich King, a goal she completed, leaving her subsequent actions without justifiable cause.


    The most important thing though is that there has been time since Arthas did his evil acts, leaving plenty of time for small retcons here and there to slowly acclimatize players into acepting his potential redemption. In comparision Sylvanas' evil acts are the setup for the very expansion in which we would presumably get her redemption, which would be a supremely bad writing move.

    I really feel you shouldn't ignore the effects of frostmourne on her soul. If it split utterly in two, why can you say the same thing for sylv?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    I'll bite. Remind me how many innocents "other Windrunner maniacs" killed? Order of magnitude will suffice. You can count them both together.
    If you measure evil purely by bodycount, the player character is the greatest villain of all.

    All three of them are crazy and Azeroth would be better off without them—if not for the sake of the fictional world, then to get rid of their respective rabid fanbases, which have each caused nothing but division and faction identity conflict.

  6. #66
    Purge of Stratholme. Seen as a questionable act at best and oftne declared his darkest moment and most definitely done by hiw own free will even with Mal'ganis goading him.
    I don't understand why people keep calling this "questionable, evil, or darkest"? While it was hard to swallow to his companions, it was unquestionably good deed. People of Stratholme were already infected and pretty much dead. It was choice between mercy kill by Arthas and eternal servitude to demons in Scourge. Arthas darkest moment was that he fell to rage and drowned in revenge after purge, not the purge itself. And yes, he did that on his own free will. That is indeed what makes him such a good character and if they retcon this - this will be beyond pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    If you measure evil purely by bodycount, the player character is the greatest villain of all.
    Note word "innocents". It is there for a reason.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Arthas is definitely getting a redemption of some sort. Blizzard showed their hand too early with the Afterlives: Bastion short and Uther throwing Arthas into the Maw.
    Narratively they are now essentially forced to have Uther redeem his failure by pulling Arthas back out, and since just throwing him back into the Maw will be fairly anticlimactic he will at worst be sent to Revendreth.

    Either that or he is completely dead/controlled by Sylvanas. Either way his redemption has already begun, now its just a matter of time until we see how it plays out.

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    You have to ignore some consistency when a story goes as long as WoW has, and Blizzard has done an admirable effort trying to play up the misguided/mind-controlled Arthas for years.
    Comparing TFT Arthas with the Arthas we are likely to get will create massive problems, but the same is true for many long-running stories that have far better writing.
    My hope is that his "redemption" is limited to him being a useful asset and then tossed back in Revendreth to be judged properly once all's said and done. He shouldn't be made the hero of the piece ala Illidan, that would be just too stupid. But the story is governed by hype more than by what makes sense, and players love Arthas, so Illidan 2.0 is absolutely not out of the question.
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  8. #68
    That was pretty obvious, after she has thrown herself off of Icecrown Citadel, saw endless torment in the Maw, and decided to avoid that fate as much as possible.

  9. #69
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    Anyone gullible enough to think Sylvanas having "good intentions" makes her an antihero and not a villain is the same kind of person who unironically believed Thanos did nothing wrong when he wiped out half of all life in the universe. Simping for omnicidal maniacs isn't a good look.

    Allow me to elaborate: anyone whose plan involves the mass-murder of innocents is not a good person, or a hero of any stripe.

    Thanos had literally infinite avenues of addressing the problems he saw with the universe: he could have made resources respawn in accordance to need, he could have removed the need for fossil fuels and other resources that can't be quickly and efficiently replenished, he could have done literally anything and decided on omnicide instead. That makes him stupid, lazy, malicious, or some combination of all three. Anyone who thinks like that and has that much power is a villain, and just because he's good at presenting his malice and insanity with a veneer of polite charisma, that doesn't make him not a villain. It just means he's a good public speaker.

    Sylvanas's motives are literally that of a high schooler throwing a temper tantrum. She's mad because life wasn't fair to her, like a thirteen-year-old going through a nasty breakup. Every time she was on screen in Battle for Azeroth, she was talking about how hope is dumb and we're all poo-poo heads for believing in it. As soon as the War of Thorns became too inconvenient for her liking, just like every other time a war became too inconvenient for her liking, she just shrugged her shoulders and had the settlement wiped out--though she broke from tradition and incinerated hundreds this time, instead of plaguebombing them into puddles of slurry, while monologuing about how hope is stupid and Delaryn was stupid for believing in it. How did Saurfang set her off and cause her to angrily out herself? He kept talking about hope.

    That's not a complex and deep character motivation. "I'm angry because I got a shit deal in life, hope is stupid, and you're all stupid," is less complex than most childrens' cartoon villains. You know, the bad guys written so toddlers can wrap their head around what makes the bad guy tick and why he does bad things.

    Anyone who thinks she did nothing wrong is either simping ironically, or legit simping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    I really feel you shouldn't ignore the effects of frostmourne on her soul. If it split utterly in two, why can you say the same thing for sylv?
    It stands to reason that her soul was reunited when Frostmourne broke, and there's some implication that Uther's did at the end of the Afterlives cinematic (with his hesitation to hurl Arthas into the Maw), since we have it on record from Blizzard that when you die, all your various selves from across the timelines amalgamate with your 'proper' self the persona and memories you carry with you into whatever afterlife you're sent to.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    The trouble is, nobody actually believes that Arthas did nothing wrong (as the lich king). But with Sylvanas, fools are going to bend over backwards to argue in her favor, and the Blizzard writers are going to give them fuel with which to do so.
    In fairness, how many people these days give Illidan a free pass due to his lame redemption arc in Legion, and Sylv is a total choirgirl next to Illidan.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by lukyl View Post
    Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
    servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal."
    (lous F.R)

    And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

    Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..
    I dunno, i've heard nothing new in that cinematic save that she plans to use golden boi for something naughty.
    "I will set us all free!" pretty much told us all she said in the cinematic already.

    To me she seems like the typical deluded self-rightious villain, likely to realise that in the end she was just a pawn and striking out at the one who used her and dying in the process to gain a small measure of redemption.

    But we'll see, i can't accuse Blizzard of being entirely predictable given how odd their storytelling choices have been the last expansion. ^^
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  12. #72
    Sylvanas is going to be exactly what I predicted her to be ages ago: the Obito (from Naruto) of WoW... you called me crazy then, try to counter my theory now... BOO YEEE!!!

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    In fairness, how many people these days give Illidan a free pass due to his lame redemption arc in Legion, and Sylv is a total choirgirl next to Illidan.
    That's not accurate at all, though. Sylvanas is far, far worse than Illidan ever was; and the silly redemption arc in Legion doesn't really have anything to do with it—he was written from the start in wc3 to be... I wouldn't say gray or an antihero, because ultimately he was bad news and did plenty of things that couldn't really be excused away, but he always fought someone who was a greater villain than he himself ever was. And in BC we attacked and murdered him for... pretty much no real reason—him and his forces weren't a threat to Azeroth, the Legion was. Though that doesn't excuse his enslavement of various draenei tribes or his blood experiments on fel orcs.

    Sylvanas on the other hand is nothing short of a mustache-twirling villain whose self-obsession will let her justify anything as long as the end goal is about herself. Illidan has consistently fought for more than just himself, though he has an unhealthy habit of sacrificing his pawns along the way; Sylvanas would happily destroy everyone and everything around her, as long as she's left standing in the wasteland in the end.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    Sylvanas is far, far worse than Illidan ever was;
    She may prove to be after this expansion but right now no, not even close. People have a nicer opinion of Illidan now after Blizzard retconned him from evil to misunderstood in Legion however that doesn't undo any of his atrocities. Personally I do hope they don't try to redeem Sylv as some of the stuff she has done is flat out unforgivable, but as of the time of writing Illidan did worse and they still attempted to redeem him (I say try as like many players I will never consider him redeemed, you don't get to have women and children marched into death camps on mass and then make amends).


    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    in BC we attacked and murdered him for... pretty much no real reason
    Lmao it seems you've been drinking the full fat retcon cool aid :P We didn't kill Illidan in BC because we misunderstood his intentions or whatnot, we killed him because he was a bad guy doing bad stuff and he had to be stopped, no amount of retcons will ever change that.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    She may prove to be after this expansion but right now no, not even close. People have a nicer opinion of Illidan now after Blizzard retconned him from evil to misunderstood in Legion however that doesn't undo any of his atrocities.
    It wasn't a retcon, though. He was written that way since Wc3. The only thing Legion changed was getting rid of him; if anything it just added to his list of crimes.

    As for being worse than Sylvanas... hard no to that. Sylvanas was worse in Cataclysm.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Arikara View Post
    It wasn't a retcon, though. He was written that way since Wc3. The only thing Legion changed was getting rid of him; if anything it just added to his list of crimes.

    As for being worse than Sylvanas... hard no to that. Sylvanas was worse in Cataclysm.
    In WC3 Illidan massacred night elf villages that got in his way, nearly caused the end of the world, and willingly served Kil'jaeden to save his own skin. In BC Illidan enslaved the broken, destroyed thousands of Draenei souls in order to power his portal, and ordered the kidnapping and forced corruption of Mag'har into Fel orcs.

    Cata Sylvanas on the other hand destroyed a few human villages, resurrected the dead (though gave them a choice either to remain undead to return to death- which is more than the Fel Orcs got), and invaded Gilneas. None of this even comes close to nearly destroying all of Azeroth or consuming thousands of innocent souls like Illidan did at Auchidoun.
    Illidan has definitely got pre-BfA Sylvanas beat.

    Only Teldrassil and working for the Jailor really put modern Sylvanas over the edge, since trying to end the world is obviously in a league of its own. But she didn't do any of that until BfA. Coincidentally this is why I don't think there is any chance of a true redemption for post-BfA Sylvanas- working to end reality "because reasons" is about as eye-rollingly moustache-twirling as it gets.

  17. #77
    Slyvannas reasons are "life is unfair" and that people are a victim of circumstance. Which is alright motivation, I do like that her reasoning is an extension of the Forsaken pre-wrath philosophy.

    But no genecide isn't the answer. Is like thinking there are to many orphans in the system so your solution is to burn down all the orphanages.

    Her goals are sound her execution of the goals will mean she's a loot piñata.

    To be clear blizzard are not going to have a geencide be justified

  18. #78
    5 threads on the first page of the story forum that have Sylvanas in the title

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastgope View Post
    5 threads on the first page of the story forum that have Sylvanas in the title
    Rookie numbers for this subforum. The Sylvanas Discussion Society is slacking.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    They most likely won't try to insinuate that she was good all along, because this would send a terrible message to the masses of kids who play this game ("Genocide is fine so long as you have good intentions for doing it").
    come on now..... give me a break. it sounds like a debate from the 90's. "oh!! video games are bad, kids are killing people in a pixel world"... this is a phantasy game where people are proud to show their "bloodthirsty" or "death bringer" title. leave me alone with your "terrible message to the mass of kids who play this game". exept maybe a couple of nutjob, nobody's getting any "message" from this game.
    Last edited by Beuargh; 2020-11-25 at 10:32 AM.

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