Sylvannas is going to be Arthas did nothing wrong 2.0

[lukyl]

Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal." (lous F.R)

And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..

[MikeBogina]

Garrosh is already ArthasDidNothingWrong 2.0

Also while it is possible for this to be her motivation, she's still doing evil stuff. Not only did she kill people, but those souls didn't just die, they went to the Maw where they're tortured and warped into monstrous beings. Unless it's more of the end's justify means, where all those souls are freed by her and the Jailer willingly, then it's hard to justify.

But I do agree that almost everything ive seen of the afterlife, the 4 main ones are horrible. Revendreth makes sense to be that way, but if you're a warrior in life or just any fighter, soldier, you pop up in Maldraxxus? If you served in life, you must lose all memories and become a slave in the afterlife? If you nurtured and protected nature in life, you become food for Ardenwield? Ok im not 100% on that last one, it's something I read, but the idea that Ursoc and all Demi-gods, loa, whatever dont reform in the Emerald Dream but do it in Ardenwield and they can be snuffed out permanently is horrible. Blizzard says there's other afterlives like hunting ones for Durotan, but the main 4 just are horrible when you get down to it.

It almost makes me wish we never went to Shadowlands, because at least then you could think dead characters are finally at peace/rest, but nope it's horrible for everyone and you can be deleted from existence now if you die there.

So maybe breaking the system and making it so no one ever dies again truly or has freedom to go wherever in the Shadowlands upon death is actually good ends that justify the means, but there's also the fact that the Valkyr/Jailer tricked Sylvanas in the first place and she may still be under the impression that she was destined for the Maw when that wasn't true.

[Varodoc]

That's not how it works.

A villain with good intentions is not an anti-hero.

It's a villain with good intentions.

Sauron had good intentions, Sargeras had good intentions, Thanos had good intentions, even the Emperor Palpatine talked about restoring peace to the galaxy, that doesn't mean they are not villains. Sylvanas sealed her fate when she committed genocide. They most likely won't try to insinuate that she was good all along, because this would send a terrible message to the masses of kids who play this game ("Genocide is fine so long as you have good intentions for doing it").

Also, her philosophy is inherently flawed, because every soul is sent to the realm they would best belong to. Why should a war-like soul that enjoys battle complain about Maldraxxus? Why should a pious soul that enjoys dutiful service complain about Bastion? Why should Ursoc, a selfless defender of the wilds, complain that he was sacrificed for the future of Ardenweald and its people? Why should Sylvanas reserve for herself the right to speak for everyone, when we see countless people who are more than happy with their afterlives? Who gave her the right to decide what's best for everyone?

[Arikara]

The trouble is, nobody actually believes that Arthas did nothing wrong (as the lich king). But with Sylvanas, fools are going to bend over backwards to argue in her favor, and the Blizzard writers are going to give them fuel with which to do so.

Same thing with the other Windrunner maniacs, really.

Regardless, the result will be that we will never hear the end of this nonsense.

[Sondrelk]

If anything Sylvanas is what will make the argument of Arthas not doing anything wrong hold weight.

We now know for sure that wearing the Helm of Domination erodes you will and makes you a pawn of the Jailer. Only Bolvar managed to stave it off and even he struggled immensely. Not to mention that going by the cinematic trailer and the Death Knight short story we can surmise that the blue eyes is a sign of being controlled, meaning that Arthas was most likely being controlled by the Jailer, whether knowingly or not.

Sylvanas is however not controlled from what we know, and if she is controlled like Arthas then that would exonerate her, but only because she would not be herself. If Blizzard does not go this route then Sylvanas is shown in a far more evil light. Arthas was shown to have good intentions that were continually degraded until he picked up Frostmourne and later the Helm of Domination, both of which could have been the moment he became controlled or at least heavily influenced by the Jailer.
Sylvanas meanwhile has done questionable or outright evil stuff ever since she was freed from Arthas' control, the difference being that she does not have a convenient scapegoat to place her actions on, her justifiable goal was defeating the Lich King, and to this end she tortured and killed innocent human farmers.

Sylvanas at this moment is irredeemable without mind control or similar to explain her evil ways, whereas Arthas has gradually gotten probable reasons for his evil deeds, starting with him wanting to save his people from a very real threat, all the way until we now know he was mind-controlled, meaning his actions are not fully his own.

- - - Updated - - -

The trouble is, nobody actually believes that Arthas did nothing wrong (as the lich king). But with Sylvanas, fools are going to bend over backwards to argue in her favor, and the Blizzard writers are going to give them fuel with which to do so.

Same thing with the other Windrunner maniacs, really.

Regardless, the result will be that we will never hear the end of this nonsense.

Arthas has been given the ultimate out in the Helm of Domination mind control thing, and even then it would be insane to imagine that he would gain more than the kind of redemption that allows him to take the Jailers place or something similar.

SYlvanas has done far more evil things, is under no mind control that we know of, and some players are still convinced that she is going to return triumphantly to the Hordes open arms when Shadowlands is over.

[Neotokyo]

Magnus did nothing wrong.... crap wrong game... She may have good intentions but as other have said it in no way makes her a good guy or even an anti-hero. She has done a lot wrong.

[Danvash]

Wasn't he being mind controlled by the Legion and Ner'zhul though? Or has that been retconned to be the Jailer now?

[MrLachyG]

Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal." (lous F.R)

And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..

I disagree, she is clearly evil and has been extremely manipulative for a long time now and she will die during Shadowlands. Just because you read a random comment on youtube that suggests otherwise doesn't make it so.

[bagina]

Just read this comment on youtube; "Sylvannas plan is to tear down the actual shadowlands system. She thinks is not fair that you dont have freedom choose your fate when you die, and instead remain slave of a Covenant for the rest of the eternity. She wants freedom, not
servitude or torture after death. Thats why she has been enpowerign the jailer all this time, by feeding the maw with souls (thats why she started the bfa war, to kill and empower the maw). Because only the jailer can help sylvanas to achieve her goal." (lous F.R)

And it holds enough truth to it that it seems really likely by the end of her arc and plans being revealed, it will come full circle where we as a onlooker couldn't see the end goal good she was doing for us and it required sacrifices we saw as evil blah blah. Resulting in her being labeled an Anti Hero for freeing us from death or something along those lines.

Atleast thats my prediction by end of SL right now..

I believe this could turn out to be true, yes.

I kind of get Sylv's intentions, I mean who gave anyone the right to decide where the souls go? Arbiter is not the god of WoW's universe, why should she decide anything and hold dominion over the afterlife? Why should she be the sole judge? On what basis. She judges the souls according to her own moral system the living have no way of learning about. Why hers should be the correct one. So yeah, in summation, if she's so unreliable that she can be turned off anytime - she never deserved to judge the souls in the first place. Girl bye. Give me an omnipotent god or go home.

[Super Dickmann]

@Sondrelk

The damage control for Arthas has already begun and is already piss weak and the expansion hasn't even started yet. Well before he grabbed the sword and we go into any arguments about culpability in his own actions, while he was of sound state of mind, Arthas had already jumped to killing off an entire city's population to stem the flow of the plague within a minute of being presented with the situation. Following up on this, he hired mercenaries to trap his men to go after Mal'ganis, then framed those mercenaries and had them offed. In terms of doing it for his people, we don't need to guess at his motive, he tells us directly - 'Damn the men! Nothing shall prevent me from having my revenge'. Once he grabs Frostmourne, something he does of his own free will, he destroys three kingdoms (Lordaeron, Quel'thalas, Dalaran) to one and a half for Sylvanas (Gilneas, Teldrassil). If we go by endorsing human experimentation or torture, then he's also got her beat by an order of magnitude given how much more widespread the Scourge was vs. humanity. Krastinov alone has a crime list longer than the entire R.A.S. combined and the dude wasn't even doing it for revenge but for kicks. The difference in both scale and damage are so comically in Arthas' favor it isn't even funny, notwithstanding that he was the one to kill Sylvanas and raise her in the first place and the spore of retarded logic employed to defend Arthas because Mal'ganis manipulated him could just as easily be used for Sylvanas's vision of the Maw in Edge of Night and would be equally as feeble.

Considering that we have a window into Arthas's mind as he did all of his things attesting to his volition in them, on top of his conscience being so much of a burden to him that he had to cut out his own heart and throw it down a well and even then was restrained from taking over the world, we can also ditch the idea that he was a meat puppet just following Ner'zhul's orders. People would call Sylvanas getting redeemed a Kerrigan 2.0 and they'd be right, that route would be abysmal, but it's Arthas who captures BW: Kerrigan to SC2 Kerrigan the best - there's no doubt in Brood War that Kerrigan is the architect of her own decisions whatever her circumstances, with her infestation being a figleaf that cuts her id loose. In SC2 however she's made the agent of the Jailor Amon who has no control of her own actions and the billions she fucked over are tastefully hid under the carpet.

[Sondrelk]

@Super Dickmann

-Snipped for brevity-

The point is that Arthas has both a sympathetic cause (wanting to save his people from the Scourge) as well as a scapegoat to offload his culpability (Helm of Domination mind control)

Sylvanas only had a sympathetic cause in defeating the Lich King until his defeat, after which her actions have no justifiable cause for her evil deeds. More importantly though is that she does not have a scapegoat for culpability like Arthas does, given what we know we have to assume she is doing all the evil stuff like burnig down Teldrassil and raising the survivors of her own free will, which immediately makes her come off worse.


Les us compare two moments from each character to contrast:

Arthas:
Purge of Stratholme. Seen as a questionable act at best and oftne declared his darkest moment and most definitely done by hiw own free will even with Mal'ganis goading him. This act is done by his genuine desire to do good and help his people, he decides to do this evil thing because he considered the realm as a whole more important.
Unleashing the Scourge. Causes the death of potentially thousands and launches the various kingdoms into disarray. No doubt given that this is evil, all the characters acknowledge it as so. Done under the influence of the Helm of Domination, which we can now assume to at least some extent bends you to the Jailers will.
So in short Arthas had either justifiable cause, or an exoerating event that makes a redemption possible. It will still feel weird since it would be a retcon from how he was shown in most of WotLK, but even then Blizzard planted the seeds of his redemption with his guilt, and his seeming remorse when he dies.

Sylvanas:
Human experimentation. Kidnaps and experiments on live subjects to create a new plague of Undeath. Justifiable cause being that she wants to defeat the Lich King, a known and credible threat. Done entirely by her own free will despite knowledge that doing so makes her a hypocrite.
Burning of Teldrassil: Burns down Teldrassil, at that point filled with almost nothing but civilians, destroying the civilization and making its inhabitants refugees and possibly an endangered species. Done for the purpose of sparking an even more destructive war with the end goal being more casualties. As far as we known done entirely be her own free will.
Sylvanas has done her evil acts of her own free will (that we know of), and her most justifiable endgoal was revenge on the Lich King, a goal she completed, leaving her subsequent actions without justifiable cause.


The most important thing though is that there has been time since Arthas did his evil acts, leaving plenty of time for small retcons here and there to slowly acclimatize players into acepting his potential redemption. In comparision Sylvanas' evil acts are the setup for the very expansion in which we would presumably get her redemption, which would be a supremely bad writing move.

[Super Dickmann]

@Sondrelk

I'll address the example in a moment, but I want to go for the meta argument first. From a writing perspective removing the culpability of either character turns their story into dross for the same reason Kerrigan's was as abysmal as it was. At present, Sylvanas's story is a shoddy but at least comprehensible greek tragedy - she is shown a fate, that being the Maw, falsely and in the steps she takes to avoid her fate she ensures it comes about. This is classic stuff. If Sylvanas ends up having a soul split like Uther, that means that there is no story because the husk we have left has no culpability in its own actions. This is a point magnified when it comes to Arthas and Kerrigan, because in Brood War and Frozen Throne, there was no ambiguity when it comes to their involvement in their own actions.

Kerrigan doesn't force Zeratul to kill his love interest/teacher and then brag about being the Queen Bitch of the Universe after using all her enemies because she's a sockpuppet used by a transdimensional Satan figure. The story only works at all because this is a culmination of her characterization, going from being the pawn of someone else (Mengsk) to a player in her own right and indeed playing on people seeing her as a victim to maneuver herself therein. At the same time, Arthas's story isn't that of a good boy who dun got tricked, it's someone who's put in a difficult situation and then takes the wrong route every time - the Purge is a totally justifiable decision, but it's after he does it that he ditches the figleaf of doing it for his people and it becomes about his own ego. That's why he hires the mercenaries to stop his people from escaping, then frames the mercenaries and why he tells Medivh to go fuck himself. At this point it's about him, not them. When he kills Uther and gloats over his corpse about living forever, this is once again not written as a scene where Uther addresses an empty suit run by a giant blue man from another dimension, it's to show the degree to which he's fallen. Remove either his or Kerrigan's culpability and you have no actor and ergo you have no story. People do not praise Arthas's story even now or enjoy his character because they're deeply attached to a meat puppet run by Satan but because of his subversion of the fairy tale prince route and how he acts as a Death Knight. Arthas isn't tortured while he's doing it or moaning about how life is pain the way Sylvanas does, he's having a blast. He takes the piss out of every other character in the plot and, just like Kerrigan, ends the expansion as the most powerful being in the setting. The Jailor isn't taunting Kael about stealing his girlfriend, torturing Sylvanas after she irritates him or telling Sapphiron he doesn't have time to chat and is just there to kill him and loot his crap, Arthas is. Remove the personalities from these and you have no plot.

Tangent aside, the argument you're presenting is still wrong even from an entirely in-setting perspective. Notwithstanding how much Ner'zhul was a puppet of the Jailor (which given he was held by the Dreadlords who work for the Jailor and Ner'zhul is against them I'd say has no chance), you're purposefully downplaying what it is Arthas actually does. Arthas releasing the Scourge isn't an abstraction that kills unknown thousands or 'sends kingdoms into disarray', the bodycount of destroying Lordaeron, killing 90% of people in Quel'thalas and raiding Dalaran is well ahead of Sylvanas's bodycount of Gilneas and Teldrassil, both by affected landmass and population. Making human experimentation the dividing line is a joke considering Scholomance or the perspective of pretty much everyone raised to be a slave in their own body and eating their loved ones and the difference in scale involved. Say what you will about Sylvanas but she didn't have women and children stitched into a golem while aware and pleading for their lives. It's why I brought up that Krastinov alone has more of a record than Sylvanas's entire R.A.S. Even if we make it a question of motivation, Arthas is motivated, by the end of the human campaign by his own ego, again, we don't need to theorize - he tells us himself that he's doing it for revenge. When at the start of The Frozen Throne's first mission Arthas declares himself King of Lordaeron, puts on his father's crown and makes a game out of hunting escaping refugees for sport it isn't some astral devil figure racking up a kill count it's the heir having a laugh over the remains of his father's kingdom.

[Sondrelk]

@Super Dickmann

I am not arguing that it would be good writing, but rather that on a meta level Arthas' redemption is more plausible because of both the exenuating circumstances the writers have piled onto him since WotLK, but also the simple fact that we are sufficiently far removed from his actions that we can argue that his redemption falls into the realm of retcon, rather than blatant narrative suicide.

The point about Kerrigan is valid, but her redemption was in a sense perfectly valid within the confines of its own trilogy (or rather first 2 since LotV barely mentioned her). It was a bad retcon when seen as a whole. but the writers did take steps to ease the transition from Starcraft Kerrigan to Starcraft 2 Kerrigan.


And yes, the arguments are probably not entirely fair, but my point there is more that within the story right now Arthas has grounds for aredemption, whereas Sylvanas does not, regardless of whether her actions are objectively less damaging. (At least up until she broke the Helm, hard to argue death of a continent to death of a universe)

[bagina]

Gotta love some people bending over backwards trying to whitewash Arthas and downplay the number of his crimes, claiming he's "not as bad as Sylvanas!". Just say you hate female characters beating your precious Bolvars and be done with it. Just a simple fact that Arthas was THE ONE who created Sylvanas the banshee, the warped undead, makes him indirectly responsible for every evil shit she's committed. On top of his own crimes.

[Super Dickmann]

@Super Dickmann

I am not arguing that it would be good writing, but rather that on a meta level Arthas' redemption is more plausible because of both the exenuating circumstances the writers have piled onto him since WotLK, but also the simple fact that we are sufficiently far removed from his actions that we can argue that his redemption falls into the realm of retcon, rather than blatant narrative suicide.

The point about Kerrigan is valid, but her redemption was in a sense perfectly valid within the confines of its own trilogy (or rather first 2 since LotV barely mentioned her). It was a bad retcon when seen as a whole. but the writers did take steps to ease the transition from Starcraft Kerrigan to Starcraft 2 Kerrigan.

And yes, the arguments are probably not entirely fair, but my point there is more that within the story right now Arthas has grounds for aredemption, whereas Sylvanas does not, regardless of whether her actions are objectively less damaging. (At least up until she broke the Helm, hard to argue death of a continent to death of a universe)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that it's very likely Arthas will be redeemed. My point is rather to preemptively get out of the way why in the broader scheme of things it's bullshit and retroactively destructive bullshit at that and the insane amount of whitewashing of both he and the Scourge did it'd require to even put him in the same ballpark as Sylvanas before she busts the veil. And even then that would only put her in the same ballpark as associates of the omnicidal like Kael and Vashj.

Though your point regarding framing does make me consider that making Arthas be entirely silent in both his killing of Sylvanas and Uther and the general appearance of him as inexpressive and robotic wasn't just a budgetary decision, but a conscious storytelling choice. Having Arthas be as he actually was during WC3, i.e mocking them as they die (while kiting Uther with an army of ghouls because he's level 10 and Arthas is level 2) would undermine an eventual redemption story because that is characterization and personal identity. The Arthas of Warbringers: Sylvanas and Afterlives: Bastion on the other hand is actually what a redemption would require him to be - a silent meatpuppet who's purely functional actions can be pinned on the blue man.

[Sondrelk]

Gotta love some people bending over backwards trying to whitewash Arthas and downplay the number of his crimes, claiming he's "not as bad as Sylvanas!". Just say you hate female characters beating your precious Bolvars and be done with it. Just a simple fact that Arthas was THE ONE who created Sylvanas the banshee, the warped undead, makes him indirectly responsible for every evil shit she's committed. On top of his own crimes.

Those people are the writers though. This isnt something that has just been pulled out of thin air, the writers made it clear way back in WotLK that Arthas was not entirely himself since he put on the crown, the only thing to debate is whether it is light suggestions or complete mind control.
Now that the latest short story came out the writers seem to be doubling down on the mind control.

Comaplin about it all you want, but it is still sadly the way the story has been written.

[Combatbulter]

Those people are the writers though. This isnt something that has just been pulled out of thin air, the writers made it clear way back in WotLK that Arthas was not entirely himself since he put on the crown, the only thing to debate is whether it is light suggestions or complete mind control.
Now that the latest short story came out the writers seem to be doubling down on the mind control.

Comaplin about it all you want, but it is still sadly the way the story has been written.

This has been flip flopping massively over the years, while the argument can be made that Arthas had some leeway, he was displayed as a rotten bastard to the core, the reason he could take over from Ner'zhul was after all he had done , he had zero regrets, while Ner'zhul had.

[Sondrelk]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that it's very likely Arthas will be redeemed. My point is rather to preemptively get out of the way why in the broader scheme of things it's bullshit and retroactively destructive bullshit at that and the insane amount of whitewashing of both he and the Scourge did it'd require to even put him in the same ballpark as Sylvanas before she busts the veil. And even then that would only put her in the same ballpark as associates of the omnicidal like Kael and Vashj.

Though your point regarding framing does make me consider that making Arthas be entirely silent in both his killing of Sylvanas and Uther and the general appearance of him as inexpressive and robotic wasn't just a budgetary decision, but a conscious storytelling choice. Having Arthas be as he actually was during WC3, i.e mocking them as they die (while kiting Uther with an army of ghouls because he's level 10 and Arthas is level 2) would undermine an eventual redemption story because that is characterization and personal identity. The Arthas of Warbringers: Sylvanas and Afterlives: Bastion on the other hand is actually what a redemption would require him to be - a silent meatpuppet who's purely functional actions can be pinned on the blue man.

Personally I imagine they will go for a slow descent thing, where Arthas killing Uther was not entirely one or the other, but rather just another midway point between Arthas the misguided prince and Arthas the Lich King.

Regardless I cannot see him get more redemption than becoming hte new Jailer. At least if he is to "survive" Shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

This has been flip flopping massively over the years, while the argument can be made that Arthas had some leeway, he was displayed as a rotten bastard to the core, the reason he could take over from Ner'zhul was after that he had zero regrets about what he had done, while Ner'zhul had.

Well, as is my point. That was then, this is now.

Back then he was evil to the core, the writers have now decided he was mind controlled.

It is the same thing that happened to Kerrigan between Starcraft and Starcraft 2.

[Super Dickmann]

Personally I imagine they will go for a slow descent thing, where Arthas killing Uther was not entirely one or the other, but rather just another midway point between Arthas the misguided prince and Arthas the Lich King.

Regardless I cannot see him get more redemption than becoming hte new Jailer. At least if he is to "survive" Shadowlands.

Arthas behaving hugely out of character after putting on the helm is neither here nor there. Having him be puppeted by the Jailor after he puts on the hat is of course a retcon of, like @Combatbulter says, Arthas' mental killing of Ner'zhul and taking full control of the Scourge which we all have from his own perspective with no hint of a third party in sight. But it'd be less harmful in the sense that his Wrath appearance was already a massive departure from how he acted in WC3. DK Arthas was not a Saturday morning villain putting you in escapable death traps or killing his goons, but possibly the most effective character in the setting. The real trick is that his wrap sheet and general behaviour before putting on the hat is already so humongous that what he does from the end of TFT on is just icing on the cake even if we didn't previously have it black on white that his only issue with what happened was that he was playing second fiddle to Ner'zhul.

Arthas being the Jailor on the other hand would be far worse than even a redemption given that a dude who was okay-ing going on hunting trips for women and kids and is involved in the closest the game's rating will allow to rape would be in charge of administering such for eternity. Actually, nevermind, the asspain on social media would be almost worth it if that's the ending they go with.

[Tronski]

"YOU ARE ALL NOTHING!" Springs to mind. I do not feel the feels that she is doing anything for the greater good.