Alleria Windrunner

[Alanar]

I understood the cinematic perfectly, we are disagreeing on something that has nothing to do with the cinematic. Separating the light from a user of the light.

I am not sure what you are dissagreeing with.
I mean xera clearly operates out of the light, we have seen the same behaviour before and Xera is operating out of the light. We dont know if her boss is a lightlord or w/e that was just a theory, but your response about the cinematic makes it clear you missed the point of the light in that scene. Its like other sources a seductive source of power who before that scene always seemed as the safe, good faith, but now we know has a differnt side.

[Newname1234567890]

I think you missed the point of that cinematic.

Xera pushed Illidan when he said no. This was a side we never saw before. It might seem like she is healing him.
I dont think I would call it. Like that. Illidan literally said: I traded power for freedom before. She was highly seductive realy.. and she was a beacon of 100% light. Who is probably ordered by her boss(lets say a light lord) to bath illidan in light to have a powerfull ally. Seems realy obvious.

She clearly operates out of the light.

Hasn't blizzard said that different N'aaru have different methods? Hence why A'dal sought to kill illdian not convert him.

[Alanar]

Yrel's actions are a form of fanaticism. It's not corruption by the light. You don't need magic to do what Yrel is doing, she's given into a dogma that has questionable moral implications.

We dont know much about her going full light. Just the scene we got. We dont know if the light promissed great power to yrel for example..

We dont know a lot about those imp

[tommyhil622]

I am not sure what you are dissagreeing with.
I mean xera clearly operates out of the light, we have seen the same behaviour before and Xera is operating out of the light. We dont know if her boss is a lightlord or w/e that was just a theory, but your response about the cinematic makes it clear you missed the point of the light in that scene. Its like other sources a seductive source of power who before that scene always seemed as the safe, good faith, but now we know has a differnt side.

Again, Xe'ra believed that the Light was calling her to do what she was doing to Illidan. To "heal" his scars and remove the demonic/fel corruption in his body. Because "she" felt he was the chosen one. Xe'ra isn't the light she is part of it, and is a user of said light. She isn't the light. That's why i said our disagreement isn't about the cinematic. Just because she says "The light..." doesn't make it so.

[Alanar]

Hasn't blizzard said that different N'aaru have different methods? Hence why A'dal sought to kill illdian not convert him.

Sure, but isnt that with every being or race?
I mean not everyone is a sheep right.

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Again, Xe'ra believed that the Light was calling her to do what she was doing to Illidan. To "heal" his scars and remove the demonic/fel corruption in his body. Because "she" felt he was the chosen one. Xe'ra isn't the light she is part of it, and is a user of said light. She isn't the light. That's why i said our disagreement isn't about the cinematic. Just because she says "The light..." doesn't make it so.

But is that you or her believing that? I dont think her motivation is written anywhere right? If not then I would just take this as an opinion.

If not, just making sure, source would be great in case I missed that.

[Newname1234567890]

Sure, but isnt that with every being or race?
I mean not everyone is a sheep right.

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But is that you or her believing that?

So we can't say whether Xera or Adal "speak" for the Light's true point of view/methodology

[Triceron]

I undersand what you are trying to say here but the void has whispers. That's not debatble. No other form of magic has a porperty that actively tries to corrupt you other than maybe fel. The other examples are people who had questionable motivations and upon recieving said power are twisted even further.

The void actively tries to corrupt you. It's an external force that does not originate from the individual.



These whispers constantly speak to the users of the void and said user has to ward against it otherwise they are either corrupted, driven mad, killed or any combination of the above. So, no the effects of the void is not an internal battle that begins with the user, its an external one that comes from the void itself and affects every user to different degrees. And we are show in game and in lore the more the said user gives into the void, the stronger these voices become.

Now if the user is already evil, this can increase the effects.

It is not explained what or who is doing the whispering.

If we hadn't known that Ner'zhul the Lich King and the Jailor in Shadowlands was a thing, Arthas hearing whispering when he took up Frostmourne could have been just as ominous and could be attributed to 'Necromancy' corrupting him. We know that isn't the case with the revelations we have now.

Similar accounts happen with Void Magic but we don't know if it is truly 'inherent' because we're just now starting to get explanations for what Void magic really is.

And your example is clear - it's not the Void whispering, it's Xal'atath; an agent of the Old Gods and Void Lords that is whispering. Xal'atath is not 'all Void magic'.

[tommyhil622]

Sure, but isnt that with every being or race?
I mean not everyone is a sheep right.

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But is that you or her believing that? I dont think her motivation is written anywhere right?

My belief doesn't matter. That's her believing that's what the light wanted. And in the end we see that even Velen (a light user) realizes that Illidan was right all along. That they couldn't depend on the light to win the war vs the legion. That their ultimate victory wasn't in fates hands. Which is what Xe'ra couldn't understand.

[Alanar]

So we can't say whether Xera or Adal "speak" for the Light's true point of view/methodology

I would assume they will.. just looking at what we have in the cosmic chart. Xera is obviously new lore, so I want.to leave adal out here. But you are right.. she is a Naaru so I guess she will.

We will likely get some more info about the light this expansion, but this clearly indicates people are just guessing and dont know much more then this.

[tommyhil622]

It is not explained what or who is doing the whispering.

If we hadn't known that Ner'zhul the Lich King and the Jailor in Shadowlands was a thing, Arthas hearing whispering when he took up Frostmourne could have been just as ominous and could be attributed to 'Necromancy' corrupting him. We know that isn't the case with the revelations we have now.

Similar accounts happen with Void Magic but we don't know if it is truly 'inherent' because we're just now starting to get explanations for what Void magic really is.

And your example is clear - it's not the Void whispering, it's Xala'tath; an agent of the Old Gods and Void Lords that is whispering. Xala'tath is not 'all Void magic'.

The Lich Kings power isn't connected to the void. I feel like we are going all over the place with that one.

The source of the voices is not really relevant. The point is using the void opens the door for all the evil entities that inhabit the void.

So Alleria being exposed to that is the issue, regardless to the source and how many sources of the voices and influences. And Xala'tath isn't the only source of the whispers.

[Triceron]

So Alleria isn't an example of what i'm saying. She's not the void, she's using the void. What I'm saying is i've never see the void itself motivate a user to do good. Alleria's example is the complete opposite. She's bending an otherwise evil force to use it for good.

Again we are looking at this particular case where she specifically is delving deeper into it, which makes her more susceptible of being corrupted in the future.

Good and evil is what individuals choose to do.

We never saw individuals who chose to do good by using Void magic, that's all. The Void didn't make Cho'gall go evil; Cho'gall was evil-minded to begin with and was using the Void to further his goals. Ner'zhul in Draenor wasn't inherently evil either, but he CHOSE to be for the sake of 'saving his people' and tapping into a dark source of power to further that goal. That isn't really any different than say abusing the elements the way the Taunka did, to save themselves. Misusing dark power is simply that.

In truth, there is no objective example of Void motivating people to do anything. Void can drive one into madness, but the choice to do evil or good is still within the realm of control of that individual. It's just more likely they'll be evil because we associate madness with evil; even though it's not mutually exclusive at all. It's just a matter of not having any Shadow-users who are good; yet we have Locus Walker and Alleria now being examples of two who are.

[Newname1234567890]

I would assume they will.. just looking at what we have in the cosmic chart. Xera is obviously new lore, so I want.to leave adal out here. But you are right.. she is a Naaru so I guess she will.

We will likely get some more info about the light this expansion, but this clearly indicates people are just guessing and dont know much more then this.

I mean it's safe to say that the Light Expansion will have to have "good" light faction to justify why Paladins and Preists don't join Yrel.

[Alanar]

My belief doesn't matter. That's her believing that's what the light wanted. And in the end we see that even Velen (a light user) realizes that Illidan was right all along. That they couldn't depend on the light to win the war vs the legion. That their ultimate victory wasn't in fates hands. Which is what Xe'ra couldn't understand.

No.. its fine, you just truly believe she thinks that way altho its just in your head. Nice twist btw, but what velen thought isnt the point. The point is that Xera operated out of the light and nothing else realy. Not that we know off atleast.

If you cant give me a source on xera motivation then its headcanon m8.

[Triceron]

The Lich Kings power isn't connected to the void. I feel like we are going all over the place with that one.

The source of the voices is not really relevant. The point is using the void opens the door for all the evil entities that inhabit the void.

So Alleria being exposed to that is the issue, regardless to the source and how many sources of the voices and influences. And Xala'tath isn't the only source of the whispers.

Lich King is connected to Necromancy, and I was making a point that if we didn't know about the Jailer or Ner'zhul, one could make the same association that Necromancy causes whispers because that's exactly what happened in Warcraft 3 when Arthas picked up Frostmourne. He got whispers through dark magic that WASN'T Void.

You said we know Void magic whispers, but it's not actually VOID magic doing it; it's individual agents who happen to be evil-aligned (Old Gods, Xal'atath). This is little different than the same whispers shown through Necromancy, namely the ones that came from the Lich King. We experience that first hand in Wrath of the Lich King questing.

And Void is not the only type of magic that allows this sort of 'whispering' to happen. All divine magic in WoW is indicative of this. Contacting ancestral spirits, witchdoctors contacting the Loa (before they were given tangible forms). Tyrande has a literal line in WC3 saying she hears the Voice of Elune. We even know now that the Emerald Dream touches every living being, and that's how the Nightmare was able to seed terrors into the minds of some of the heroes.

We simply don't know the extents of Void magic enough to understand it. If you're just basing all of what we know of whispers on being 'inherently to Void magic' then we're working with a very limited understanding to begin with. It's as generalized as saying Fel can only be used for evil. It's only true until we're explicitly told it isn't.

[Alanar]

I mean it's safe to say that the Light Expansion will have to have "good" light faction to justify why Paladins and Preists don't join Yrel.

I mean I guess she has them.in their ranks. I hope so to and truly make it a motivation type of thing. The svarlets could still use the light altho for nothing good.

[ohwell]

Alleria was introduced as someone who would eventually fall to the whispers, something she herself acknowledges but needed the power to protect what she wanted to protect, the void elves as a whole are pretty much running on borrowed time.



The downside is still pretty much there just subdued, her anchor to sanity is her son, without him she most likely could not hold the whispers at bay.

Right, but anyone without an anchor or who loses it will be screwed. I was saying I could see them doing something where she dies to give all of the void elves full control without ever having the fear of succumbing.

[tommyhil622]

Lich King is connected to Necromancy, and I was making a point that if we didn't know about the Jailer or Ner'zhul, one could make the same association that Necromancy causes whispers because that's exactly what happened in Warcraft 3 when Arthas picked up Frostmourne. He got whispers through dark magic that WASN'T Void.

You said we know Void magic whispers, but it's not actually VOID magic doing it; it's individual agents who happen to be evil-aligned (Old Gods, Xal'atath). This is little different than the same whispers shown through Necromancy, namely the ones that came from the Lich King. We experience that first hand in Wrath of the Lich King questing.

Again getting into the voices and who makes the voices and where they come from doesn't really matter.

The point is once you use the void, the voices are there. From Old Gods, From Xal'atath, from other Naaru, from the Void Gods, from corrupted Naaru, from Powerful Old God Agents. All those voices are there and are evil. Alleria opened that door and so long as that door is open, she's vulnerable to corruption. The deeper one goes into the void the stronger the voices get.

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No.. its fine, you just truly believe she thinks that way altho its just in your head. Nice twist btw, but what velen thought isnt the point. The point is that Xera operated out of the light and nothing else realy. Not that we know off atleast.

If you cant give me a source on xera motivation then its headcanon m8.

So you think Xe'ra is THE light and you're saying that me saying that she's just a Naaru is headcanon? I think you would have the burden of proof to show that Xe'ra is actually the light. The cinematic isn't evidence of that.

Two vindicators place Light's Heart in the center of Xe'ra. Turalyon kneels as Light's Heart comes to life and Xe'ra is reconstituted into her original shape. As Xe'ra is restored, Turalyon's brown eyes turn golden and he stands.

High Exarch Turalyon: We are blessed to be in your presence once more, Xe'ra.
Xe'ra: Turalyon. You have found the Chosen One.

Turalyon turns and motions for Illidan Stormrage to come forward.

Xe'ra: Illidan. From birth, the light in your eyes held such promise for the future.

Illidan's mind flashes back to the War of the Ancients, during which Sargeras burned out his eyes and replaced them with demonic ones.

Illidan Stormrage: I sacrificed that birthright long ago.
Xe'ra: Do you not wish to reclaim what was lost? To be whole again?
Illidan Stormrage: The Legion's end... is all I seek.
Xe'ra: My child. You have given so much, for so little.

Illidan glares, while Xe'ra continues.

Xe'ra: Your true potential, your redemption lies before you.

Energies of light flow from Xe'ra and encircle Illidan.

Xe'ra: Let go of your shattered form and embrace the light's power.

Illidan backs up as he sees the light energies becoming stronger.

Illidan Stormrage: I've traded my freedom for power before.
Xe'ra: The prophecy... must be fulfilled.

Illidan attempts to retreat, but the light energies swiftly bind him. He is brought closer to Xe'ra while struggling to free himself.

Xe'ra: Your old life has passed. The Light will forge you a new one.
Illidan Stormrage: It is not yours to take!
Xe'ra: The Light will heal your scars.

Illidan's demon hunter tattoos are shown to be "filling up" with Light. Illidan responds in a distorted voice.

Illidan Stormrage: I am my scars!
Xe'ra: The Light is your destiny.
Illidan Stormrage: My destiny is my own!

Enraged, Illidan breaks the binds and uses his eye beams on Xe'ra while Velen, Alleria, and Turalyon shield their eyes from the resulting brightness caused by the conflicting energies. As the brightness clears, they open their eyes. Turalyon looks on for a moment in shock, his eyes returning to their normal color. Illidan lands and partially collapses from the strain. Turalyon's feet are seen walking towards Illidan, who is surrounded by the shattered remnants of Xe'ra. Turalyon's pace then quickly increases as he draws his sword, all but running.

High Exarch Turalyon: You've doomed us all! Betrayer!

Turalyon swings his sword down towards Illidan, but Illidan stops the blade with his left hand. Illidan then turns his face towards Turalyon's as he speaks.

Illidan Stormrage: Your faith has blinded you. There can be no chosen one.
Illidan Stormrage: Only we... can save ourselves.

[Newname1234567890]

I mean I guess she has them.in their ranks. I hope so to and truly make it a motivation type of thing. The svarlets could still use the light altho for nothing good.

I assume the Light Expansion will be followed by defections from the Alliance and Scarletts joining Yrel.

[Triceron]

Again getting into the voices and who makes the voices and where they come from doesn't really matter.

The point is once you use the void, the voices are there. From Old Gods, From Xal'atath, from other Naaru, from the Void Gods, from corrupted Naaru, from Powerful Old God Agents. All those voices are there and are evil. Alleria opened that door and so long as that door is open, she's vulnerable to corruption. The deeper one goes into the void the stronger the voices get.

Yes but this can be applied to practically *any* form of magic. Arcane is addicting, and the further into Arcane you get the closer you get to batshit-insane Azshara/Malygos levels of power and madness too.

Just because the whispers are there doesn't mean an individual *has* to go mad. We simply don't know enough about the voices there to make a clear judgement call on what the long-term effects could be, just as we think becoming full demon from using Fel is the absolute *worst* that can happen to an individual, making them completely evil. Yet that's not the case with Illidan and we see that even he is able to 'tame the storm' of corruption by embracing it fully. And sure, at one point he was mad, and arguably even now we could say he's pretty bat-shit crazy, but he's not inherently evil; and that's my point.

Good and Evil aren't defined by magic, and not wholly by the whispers of the dark agents who master the Void either. It's playing out the same as what we once knew of Necromancy and Fel magic; dark magic that corrupts the user but now we have examples of Good users of Necromancy and Fel. Heck, we can STILL associate all Fel-magic users as being power-hungry, but we now know that those with strong will can harness it for good rather than defaulting to the evil that the majority uses it for. Even now, we aren't particularly sure if Sargeras is inherently evil, considering we are now exploring the power vacuum left from his absence. From a certain perspective, he was simply harnessing Fel power to fight the Void at all costs, where he could not get any support from the Pantheon to fight against the Void Lords and their agents. It's up to the writers to decide whether they want to end up retconning it fully to make it seem like Sargeras was always just and true (much like they did for Doomhammer)

[Combatbutler]

Right, but anyone without an anchor or who loses it will be screwed. I was saying I could see them doing something where she dies to give all of the void elves full control without ever having the fear of succumbing.

How could she give them such protection, when she never had it herself though. Much like demon hunters void use is explicitly tied to an never ending battle of wills.