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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    Id love to see that.
    Ok....I'll bite. Why? What benefit would that bring to the game?

    Or are you just engaging in some schadenfreude?

  2. #62
    Brewmaster Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whackadoodle View Post
    Now that we're in, and I've played, I already am frustrated by Covenants. I really dislike the overall best one for DK (Kyrian) but a significant amount of power is locked behind them, so now I'm stuck with the most boring main group in wow I've ever had the misfortune of having to work with. I really hope they bring the other covenants in line with one another better, or allow us to choose the abilities we want while not having to be stuck with a group we abhor.
    I rather uninstall WoW before i even consider picking any thing other than necrolords for my DK.

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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    how dishonest can you be....yeah 0.01% is a joke exageration,but its actualy more like 50% if you chose what you like vs whats best,and we know players go to extremes for even actual 1% increases
    Are you saying that your total overall DPS in any given encounter is 50% higher depending on what covenant you choose!? They need to nerf that shit to the ground. Your overall DPS should differ like 5% at most between the best covenant and the worst one.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Ok....I'll bite. Why? What benefit would that bring to the game?

    Or are you just engaging in some schadenfreude?
    A bit of both, id think.
    It would be unhealthily hilarious to see tryhards despair about trying to minmax that cooldown.

    and also, i think we have to much freedom in some game aspects, devaluing choices. we have too many people gatekeeping activities through artificial and misaligned parameters.

    but since i play a pure dps class in a laid back environment, a cooldown on changing specs talents or similar would hinder me not in the slightest, making my whole argument dishonest and misleading. almost as much as those people saying the difference in simulated performance is a serious issue for more than a minority.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Are you saying that your total overall DPS in any given encounter is 50% higher depending on what covenant you choose!? They need to nerf that shit to the ground. Your overall DPS should differ like 5% at most between the best covenant and the worst one.
    not covenant pick alone,but soulbinds/conduit picks,best vs worst is literaly worth half a player power wise,then you have the legenderies that add another layer,my point is,there is no such thing as ''pick what you like'',its a joke,if you wanna be taken even remotly seriously you will be forced to pick whats good not what you like,i mean you can ofc pick what u want,just enjoy playing by urself or just doing lfr

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    A bit of both, id think.
    It would be unhealthily hilarious to see tryhards despair about trying to minmax that cooldown.

    and also, i think we have to much freedom in some game aspects, devaluing choices. we have too many people gatekeeping activities through artificial and misaligned parameters.

    but since i play a pure dps class in a laid back environment, a cooldown on changing specs talents or similar would hinder me not in the slightest, making my whole argument dishonest and misleading. almost as much as those people saying the difference in simulated performance is a serious issue for more than a minority.


    I'm very curious about the logic behind the "devaluing choices" line. Because I don't really see how being able to swap talents is a very important choice in the first place. Choosing a class, sure. Even choosing a role(tank/dps/heal) because of how it fundamentally alters your playstyle I also agree is meaningful. But choosing and individual talent within those categories....not so much.

    As I said, picking a covenant in terms of cosmetics and story...I actually agree CAN be meaningful. But tying minor abilities, or modifiers to abilities, to the covenant lockout doesn't make those otherwise minor differences significant.

    By all means, lock roleplay, story, and cosmetic choices of the covenants to a timer. But not player power or playstyle options. I think that's where the line needs to be drawn.


    As for gatekeeping: That's going to exist no matter what the dynamic of player power decisions is. Making it more difficult for people to adjust to the meta doesn't combat that in any way that I can think of. Although I'd love to hear how you think it would.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    not covenant pick alone,but soulbinds/conduit picks,best vs worst is literaly worth half a player power wise,then you have the legenderies that add another layer,my point is,there is no such thing as ''pick what you like'',its a joke,if you wanna be taken even remotly seriously you will be forced to pick whats good not what you like,i mean you can ofc pick what u want,just enjoy playing by urself or just doing lfr
    ^Do you have any hard proof for your hypothesis?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I'm very curious about the logic behind the "devaluing choices" line.
    Because any choice which is locked by a GCD is not a choice, but rather an inconvenience.

    To decide where and when things are to be changed more or less effortlessly and where not is a question of design philosophy in my opinion, there are no inherent right or wrong answers. But WoW evolved to a point where we either have a permanent choice(class and faction, i think that's all that's left) and things that are easily changed. I wlecome a mechanic with a medium length lock, if only for the sake of variety.

  8. #68
    Scarab Lord Skorpionss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    There is a reason why BM hunter is the most played spec in the game. People like to be effective with minimum effort.
    nah mate, it's the 2 pets you can have, trust me.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post



    Because any choice which is locked by a GCD is not a choice, but rather an inconvenience.

    To decide where and when things are to be changed more or less effortlessly and where not is a question of design philosophy in my opinion, there are no inherent right or wrong answers. But WoW evolved to a point where we either have a permanent choice(class and faction, i think that's all that's left) and things that are easily changed. I wlecome a mechanic with a medium length lock, if only for the sake of variety.
    And that evolution has happened for a very good reason: Player enjoyment.

    There are two major problems I see with attempting to revert or reintroduce meaningful choice in the way that Blizzard is trying with covenants.

    1) The choice itself is not significant enough on its own merits to warrant the lockout.

    Covenants are not a sub class. They're not a spec. They're not a permanent choice by any measure. Covenants are a borrowed power system, with two abilities and some passives, which will go away in the next expansion.

    Which is tied closely to the next point:

    2) The choice is not consistent with other significant choices, such as class or spec.
    .
    Even as far back as I can remember with WoW, changing talents was as simple as a trip to a class trainer and a gold fee. Maybe it was a bit different earlier in vanilla? I started late around Dire Maul.

    So it doesn't seem to add up that a borrowed power system should have a heavier restriction on change than permanent aspects of our characters. Even when taken in the context of the original state of the game.

    To finish up:

    I completely understand what Blizzard is trying to do with making the covenant choice more meaningful. I actually even agree with the intent!

    But.... It's just that the way they're going about it simply doesn't match up to the ACTUAL impact on our characters. That's where the source of the problem is, I think, for many people.

    If Blizzard really wants to make this work, then either increase the actual effect on our characters to warrant the two week lock, or lower the lockout to something that more accurately represents the covenant powers....and introduce something else of meaning on a higher magnitude.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-25 at 03:19 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    not covenant pick alone,but soulbinds/conduit picks,best vs worst is literaly worth half a player power wise,then you have the legenderies that add another layer,my point is,there is no such thing as ''pick what you like'',its a joke,if you wanna be taken even remotly seriously you will be forced to pick whats good not what you like,i mean you can ofc pick what u want,just enjoy playing by urself or just doing lfr
    So you're saying that if my warrior friend picks the worst covenant and I pick the best I'll do 15k damage in the same time it takes him to do 10k damage assuming we both use all our abilities equally?

  11. #71
    Brewmaster Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    not covenant pick alone,but soulbinds/conduit picks,best vs worst is literaly worth half a player power wise,then you have the legenderies that add another layer,my point is,there is no such thing as ''pick what you like'',its a joke,if you wanna be taken even remotly seriously you will be forced to pick whats good not what you like,i mean you can ofc pick what u want,just enjoy playing by urself or just doing lfr
    Starting to feel like this is a problem with peoples Attitude/mentality and not the covenants themselves.

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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    So you're saying that if my warrior friend picks the worst covenant and I pick the best I'll do 15k damage in the same time it takes him to do 10k damage assuming we both use all our abilities equally?
    im pretty sure you didnt even read what i said,no not just covenants pick,but the soulbinds/conduit combinations

  13. #73
    Its sad the entire expansion is going to be weighed down by covenants. All they had to do was remove player power and it would have been amazing.

  14. #74
    I have no intention of playing Shadowlands but have zero empathy for the OP.

    The entire expansion is built around covenants, which are the 3rd or 4th iteration on Azerite Powers/Legendaries. If you didn't like these types of systems before and/or didn't read even a smidgeon of the criticism of this core system before purchasing Shadowlands then that's on you.

    I'm sure we'll see countless similar threads on this topic over time. They will all be as redundant and pointless as this one.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMatticus View Post
    Which spec of DK? Overall best for UH is Venthyr.
    ST best is Venthyr and even that's debatable, in AoE Necrolord pulls ahead and it scales better due to inflicting Shadow damage, and the difference is small enough that I'll more than sleep soundly having my DK alt be Necrolords.

    I think that for some specs the difference is indeed very significant, such as Windwalker. But from what I've seen, for most nothing that will stop you from doing any content unless you're into Hall of Fame raiding, 20+ keys, or high rating Arenas. In which case you inflict the min-maxing upon yourself.

    I doubt pugs will obsess over Covenants. They check ilvl, score and maybe achievements. Close to nobody looked at your Azerite traits, essences or Legion leggos and there all have more impact than Covenant choice unless you also go out of your way to pick a terrible Soulbind path.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  16. #76
    My biggest problem with covenants is spec specific soulbinds. You will always spec the best follower with the soulbinds of your main spec, and your alt specs will be forced into sub optimal follower’s. If there weren’t spec specific soulbinds than you could run the same best follower for all 3 specs.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    My biggest problem with covenants is spec specific soulbinds. You will always spec the best follower with the soulbinds of your main spec, and your alt specs will be forced into sub optimal follower’s. If there weren’t spec specific soulbinds than you could run the same best follower for all 3 specs.
    That's less of a problem for some classes than others. My main is a DPS Warrior and will go for Nadjia, but my Prot OS will obviously go for Draven who is probably the single best tanking Soulbind out of the entire lot, mitigating the fact that Condemn is close to worthless for Prot in most scenarios. But I do agree that's an issue.

    In general I think Blizzard's balancing act in terms of systems this time around has been pretty decent because they've kept the values low. Like for example pretty much all the Leggies converted from Legion ones are straight up nerfed so as to be less impactful. Soulbinds + conduits together have maybe 4 effects that affect your throughout and they're that highly tuned nor can you stack them for cheese like you could with Azerite. This lessens the effect of RNG and "poor" choices, especially in comparison to some of the absurdly overtuned stuff like Corruptions.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    That's less of a problem for some classes than others. My main is a DPS Warrior and will go for Nadjia, but my Prot OS will obviously go for Draven who is probably the single best tanking Soulbind out of the entire lot, mitigating the fact that Condemn is close to worthless for Prot in most scenarios. But I do agree that's an issue.

    In general I think Blizzard's balancing act in terms of systems this time around has been pretty decent because they've kept the values low. Like for example pretty much all the Leggies converted from Legion ones are straight up nerfed so as to be less impactful. Soulbinds + conduits together have maybe 4 effects that affect your throughout and they're that highly tuned nor can you stack them for cheese like you could with Azerite. This lessens the effect of RNG and "poor" choices, especially in comparison to some of the absurdly overtuned stuff like Corruptions.
    Yeah the numbers are really so small, I can't figure out why people are trippin' so hard.

  19. #79
    I dont like that you need to read and memorize all the stuff, use a web-calculator, if you really want understand what each covenant has to offer and on top of that the synergy with spells and legendaries. I do understand that many people like complex choices and combinations, but this doesn't feel like complex decision making, its just bloated to make it seem so. a needle or two in a haystack.
    Last edited by Magneto; 2020-11-26 at 10:48 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by slalmon View Post
    Yeah the numbers are really so small, I can't figure out why people are trippin' so hard.
    Not for all classes. One of the Night Fae followers increases crit by 25% for 5 seconds for opening first, which is insane for Sublety in m+. I’d wager more than 5%.

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