Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[Soon-TM]

The entire conversation felt so forced and out of character. Like Anduin and Sylvanas are just stand-ins for the players and Blizzard.

They probably realized that their plot can't stand on its own within the established Warcraft universe which is why they have to push these cringe forced exposition dumps.

The whole scene reminded me a lot of a writer being interviewed about the major beats of his/her latest work. I was half expecting to see Andy dressed like a journalist, that's how far-fetched the whole thing felt.

Besides, the whole story of SL so far... I don't like the word, but it looks very, very nerdy. Chances are that WoW (or any MMO, for that matter) isn't the best means to convey a story such as SL's, with its deep theological and ethical implications. I mean, we all probably love to discuss religion, ethics and philosophy in general, but we certainly won't with folks like Lady BBQ and blue Satan around. It's a perfect example of pegging a square box in a round hole.

Who knows, maybe some other MMO will avoid that particular pitfall, and will be able to discuss morality, religion and ethics while featuring a deep, even if entertaining, story. But Danuser & co. are clearly ill-equipped to deal with it.

[Jessicka]

Sylvannas just became Sarah Kerrigan.

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh, no, obviously a ton of mythological gods were assholes porking their close relatives and passers by and screwing over mortals to terrible afterlives for minor inconveniences. Ditto defiance of the gods and karmic punishment there for is as old as time. But the Arbiter as an infallible decider of where you should go definitely owes a lot more to the Abrahamic religions, while the individual afterlives are all over the place. Combining the two as Blizzard have is why we can even discuss the realms and why I'm leaning to reform being the angle they're going with. The rules for not getting to the Maw meanwhile are arbitrary in the sense that A) Someone can just throw you in there if they feel like it, like how the Kyrian do it, B) If you go to Revendreth, itself arbitrary since people like KT, the Margraves and Vashj don't go there despite having a list of crimes longer than the bible or just being evil pieces of shit, ultimate decision is left to whether Denathrius wanted you to go to the Maw or not. That it has been working for as long as it has is mostly in the sense that nobody was aware of it up to now and those that were (The Light, Legion and Void) didn't give a flying shit about mortals being dicked out of a nice afterlife.

@Arrashi

The electrostimulation will be left to a short story.

Also from latest interview:
> World of Warcraft fans will be well aware of the controversy around Sylvanas.
>
> The mighty Horde warchief and ruler of the Undead has sprung from evil act to evil act – despite previously being considered one of the good guys.
>
> So is she actually a baddie now, or are her ruthless manoeuvres part of a brilliant scheme to save Azeroth?
>
> “She’s always been a very interesting character. She has a lot of history," said Sarah Boulian, Senior Level Design at Blizzard, speaking to The Sun.
>
> “And a lot of motivation for why she does the things that she does.
>
> “I think players will enjoy getting to know more behind why she’s suddenly gone dark – or the perception that she’s suddenly gone dark.
>
> “I think there’s a lot there to explore and to learn about her.”
>
> Blizzard's Patrick Dawson continued: “There’s people on this team that are still Sylvanas loyalists to this day.
>
> “Even despite everything that she’s done.
>
> “Going forward, I do think she’s a very nuanced character. It’s not just that she’s straight up pure evil.
>
> “She has motivations, she has reasons, think about those things. Think about what she could be after, what’s she going for, what’s her end-game, what’s her goal?
>
> “And I think we’re all very committed to giving her a satisfying culmination of this story, no matter what that happens to be.
>
> “So stay tuned, stand by, you’re gonna see some fun stuff in Shadowlands.”

[Soon-TM]

“Going forward, I do think she’s a very nuanced character. It’s not just that she’s straight up pure evil.”

Oh no, please no more of that "nuanced" or "morally grey" BS, for the Eternal Sun's sake. C'mon, we all know already how it turned out.

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh no, please no more of that "nuanced" or "morally grey" BS, for the Eternal Sun's sake. C'mon, we all know already how it turned out.

I think its too late for that now. Well, i mean... Alliance story cant get ANY worse. And we all predicted that Sylvanas will be a hero and since horde pushed all the blame on Sylvanas blame will be absolved. Guess what? I always said Blizz have clear preferences in the story.

[mhdoe]

This is not a "good guy" thing in my opinion she thought when she broke free from the lich king she had free will to do as she pleased. But after dying when she jumped from ice crown she learned no one has free will and others decide you life and afterlife. Only to be used as fuel and returned to do it over again making your deeds and life basically useless and your decisions not matter making life a revolving prison.

[Super Dickmann]

I think its too late for that now. Well, i mean... Alliance story cant get ANY worse. And we all predicted that Sylvanas will be a hero and since horde pushed all the blame on Sylvanas blame will be absolved. Guess what? I always said Blizz have clear preferences in the story.

For my Delaryn bet of this expansion I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Sylvanas gets redeemed and Tyrande cast as wrong for being against her. Having so many villain flags, such retarded characterization and having been cast as everything that's wrong with the world by author's mouthpiece Anduin can't be wrong. Ground rules are: Sylvanas is acknowledged as positive by Anduin, Tyrande is told she is wrong by him, Baine or one of the other mouthpieces. Sig it.

[Vakir]

For my Delaryn bet of this expansion I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Sylvanas gets redeemed and Tyrande cast as wrong for being against her. Having so many villain flags, such retarded characterization and having been cast as everything that's wrong with the world by author's mouthpiece Anduin can't be wrong. Ground rules are: Sylvanas is acknowledged as positive by Anduin, Tyrande is told she is wrong by him, Baine or one of the other mouthpieces. Sig it.

Did you ever buy that last one? ;D

[Soon-TM]

Did you ever buy that last one? ;D

Iirc our Dickmann friend's deal was that he would buy the shirt if Delaryn hadn't eventually betrayed Sylvie. There is no evidence about her (Delaryn's) whereabouts afaik, but it is strongly implied that most of the nelfs raised by Sylvie in Darkshore, and possibly Teldrassil as well, ditched lady BBQ (understandable) and travelled to the other side of the world looking for moral support from Anduin's BFF (completely bonkers).

[VladlTutushkin]

For my Delaryn bet of this expansion I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Sylvanas gets redeemed and Tyrande cast as wrong for being against her. Having so many villain flags, such retarded characterization and having been cast as everything that's wrong with the world by author's mouthpiece Anduin can't be wrong. Ground rules are: Sylvanas is acknowledged as positive by Anduin, Tyrande is told she is wrong by him, Baine or one of the other mouthpieces. Sig it.

Done and done. And this time you are not getting away via a clause D-man. After all Delaryn remained Super Horde Loyal Night Elf for no fucken reason. We should request a fanart of her doing "lok tar" and whole horde cringing while forsaken facepalming in the backround and Calia does "thumbs up" with a dopey smile. But sylvanas redemption is about inevitable so be ready to buy that shirt.

[Darth-Piekus]

The question is what does Sylvannas represent for her fanbase? Do they like Sylvannas because she produces drama or is there something else?

[Yarathir]

And if Afterlife is so unfair and flawed then “tearing it down” and rebuilding makes her a “good guy” in the context. Maybe its you who should find a spare brain?

It isn't flawed. She was the one who broke it in the first place because she was one of the souls that was considered irredeemable and through doing so cursed thousands of soul to the Maw that might have otherwise gone to fairer afterlives.

[VladlTutushkin]

For my Delaryn bet of this expansion I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Sylvanas gets redeemed and Tyrande cast as wrong for being against her. Having so many villain flags, such retarded characterization and having been cast as everything that's wrong with the world by author's mouthpiece Anduin can't be wrong. Ground rules are: Sylvanas is acknowledged as positive by Anduin, Tyrande is told she is wrong by him, Baine or one of the other mouthpieces. Sig it.

The question is what does Sylvannas represent for her fanbase? Do they like Sylvannas because she produces drama or is there something else?

Its pretty simple. She is liked because she is easy to like as long as you play horde and simp for her. Problem is - her popularity comes at EVERYBODY'S else expense. Even those horde players who dislike her. So while she is an easy and safe choice to root for since devs pretty much play her side that harms all other sides of the game and all other fanbases.

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't flawed. She was the one who broke it in the first place because she was one of the souls that was considered irredeemable and through doing so cursed thousands of soul to the Maw that might have otherwise gone to fairer afterlives.

Also most of the bad stuff and chaos happening in Covenant zones can be traced back to Jailer. Yeah, even Bastion civil war. System wasnt perfect but all afterlifes are like that, but it worked and in general things were fine until Jailer decided to trash it.

[Yarathir]

All I'm hearing from Sylvanas is "Lifes not fair! WAAAHHHHHHHH!!!"

Stop trying to bring the whole world down, just because you're still bitter that Arthas beat you.

No. It's more so "I did so many bad things that I would be sent to the bad people afterlife and I don't want that so I'm gonna tear it all down and consign innocents to the bad people afterlife instead WAAAAH!!"

[VladlTutushkin]

No. It's more so "I did so many bad things that I would be sent to the bad people afterlife and I don't want that so I'm gonna tear it all down and consign innocents to the bad people afterlife instead WAAAAH!!"

Also her "i had no choice" is such a tripe. Like... When you fed Blight to a young woman your minions captured and watched her dissolve in agony and you SMILED while doing so... oh yeah that was such a forced choice. You definitely had no other option but do that AND enjoy it too. We cant even say that "She did what she had to" like with Warhammer exterminatuses because she genuinely enjoyed torment and doom she inflicted on others and was gleefully pursuing that. Not just killing people o being immoral but receiving pleasure from that.

[Yarathir]

Oh look at that, Sylvanas's motives are more "high schooler throwing a rebellious temper tantrum" than even her 'IT'S NOT A PHASE DAD' monologues suggested previously. Gods is it tiring dealing with villains whose motivations wouldn't look out of place on someone's MySpace, complete with a shitty theme that autoplays Evanescence.

Kek. That perfectly describes Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -

Also her "i had no choice" is such a tripe. Like... When you fed Blight to a young woman your minions captured and watched her dissolve in agony and you SMILED while doing so... oh yeah that was such a forced choice. You definitely had no other option but do that AND enjoy it too. We cant even say that "She did what she had to" like with Warhammer exterminatuses because she genuinely enjoyed torment and doom she inflicted on others and was gleefully pursuing that. Not just killing people o being immoral but receiving pleasure from that.

But that's all okay because life is a curse.

Yet not living is also a curse because the afterlife is bad? Hmh..

- - - Updated - - -

So what are the odds of her being a major friendly character in a patch or two before she sacrifices herself for the greater good to keep the jailor in check - like Illidan and Kerrigan?

Hopefully 0%
Probably 80%

[VladlTutushkin]

Kek. That perfectly describes Sylvanas.

- - - Updated - - -


But that's all okay because life is a curse.

Yet not living is also a curse because the afterlife is bad? Hmh..

You know. She did that BEFORE Cata so back then she had no idea about Jailer and so on. And somehow that makes it even worse... Take Warhammer again - single worst race there (arguably) are Dark Eldars who torture and mutilate their slaves to appease an evil god who otherwise will take their souls if they stop being edgiest MFers in the Universe. So... When worse race in Grimdark setting has better motivation then Sylvanas. Because back then she had no deals or pacts or knowledge of afterlife. She just wanted to make people suffer to get her itch scratched.

[Yarathir]

You know. She did that BEFORE Cata so back then she had no idea about Jailer and so on. And somehow that makes it even worse... Take Warhammer again - single worst race there (arguably) are Dark Eldars who torture and mutilate their slaves to appease an evil god who otherwise will take their souls if they stop being edgiest MFers in the Universe. So... When worse race in Grimdark setting has better motivation then Sylvanas. Because back then she had no deals or pacts or knowledge of afterlife. She just wanted to make people suffer to get her itch scratched.

You can't really hold her responsible. She's a victim, too, you know.

I'm sure everyone she victimized will understand that and forgive her.

[VladlTutushkin]

You can't really hold her responsible. She's a victim, too, you know.

I'm sure everyone she victimized will understand that and forgive her.

Especially those souls that got sucked dry by the Jailer and now ceased to exist. Gone forever. Or those that were borken by torment and became his slave-soldiers or soul-weapons and now only exist in perpetual pain and frenzy. I bet they will understand that. Like you know, all those civilians and especially children.

[Super Dickmann]

Did you ever buy that last one? ;D

No, like @Soon-TM said, she did turn on Sylvanas, except instead of her being a renegade protege that rejects Sylvanas's world view and reconnects with her people she crossed a continent through the magnetic field of Calia's tits and was cured of her depression by this human princess who shares neither her background nor her religion. Then she may or may not have joined the Horde. We don't know since she disappeared.

So I was right in a way entirely contrary to what I expected. Both @VladlTutushkin and I, who are radically different on the Sylvanas question agree that this was a terrible resolution, but since we technicality never saw her reject Sylvanas on-screen, only join Calia and presumably the Horde, I've put clauses in here to explain what'd qualify and force me to either lose some of my wallet's contents or lose honor and have to pull a Sadfang.

As for Sylvanas's appeal, @Darth-Piekus, she was the only driver of conflict in the entirety of BFA and essentially the last stand for the Horde being something other than a discount Alliance populated by Anduin's orbiters, even if that something else were mustache-twirling dickheads. I don't think you need me to explain to you why the extant Unifaction cast are all boring clones of one another, I think you can trust the writers' call to put them all in a time-out while focusing on the far more interesting Shadowlands content. Past that she was the face of the Forsaken for a reason and they and the orcs are my favorite races.