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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    You can't really hold her responsible. She's a victim, too, you know.

    I'm sure everyone she victimized will understand that and forgive her.
    Draenor is free.

    I honestly wonder who Danuser knows in the industry. There’s no way he got to his current position based on his own merit/writing ability.

  2. #122
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Villains considering themselves good guys/the righteous ones is not new.

    I just needed to spend 2 seconds in the River of Souls to have my hatred for Sylvanas increased tenfold. The spirits so clearly coming from the Teldrassil fire are heartwrenching.
    Liberté, égalité, fraternité
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    Current count of Full/High pop WoW servers: 85 in EU alone. That's an increase from the last count.

  3. #123
    Oh wait I got it. They're totally gonna rezz all the fallen nelves if they redeem Sylvanas, aren't they? Holy shit, they totally will. She'll have the power to unmake reality at her fingertips and she'll choose to rez the elves instead. Omg, I cracked the code. Screencap this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    The question is what does Sylvannas represent for her fanbase? Do they like Sylvannas because she produces drama or is there something else?
    Let this cinematic be your answer. It converted me into a full blown member of the Church of Sylvanas
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-11-26 at 05:37 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    No, like @Soon-TM said, she did turn on Sylvanas, except instead of her being a renegade protege that rejects Sylvanas's world view and reconnects with her people she crossed a continent through the magnetic field of Calia's tits and was cured of her depression by this human princess who shares neither her background nor her religion. Then she may or may not have joined the Horde. We don't know since she disappeared.

    So I was right in a way entirely contrary to what I expected. Both @VladlTutushkin and I, who are radically different on the Sylvanas question agree that this was a terrible resolution, but since we technicality never saw her reject Sylvanas on-screen, only join Calia and presumably the Horde, I've put clauses in here to explain what'd qualify and force me to either lose some of my wallet's contents or lose honor and have to pull a Sadfang.

    As for Sylvanas's appeal, @Darth-Piekus, she was the only driver of conflict in the entirety of BFA and essentially the last stand for the Horde being something other than a discount Alliance populated by Anduin's orbiters, even if that something else were mustache-twirling dickheads. I don't think you need me to explain to you why the extant Unifaction cast are all boring clones of one another, I think you can trust the writers' call to put them all in a time-out while focusing on the far more interesting Shadowlands content. Past that she was the face of the Forsaken for a reason and they and the orcs are my favorite races.
    Horde being mustache twirling shitlords never sat well with me. Like... sure they shouldnt be Alliance but i always liked the more... heroic horde i guess? Because orcs and undead and minotaurs are NEVER heroic in other settings. Well, maybe in Spellforce but Spellforce is Warcraft ripoff. BY THE WAY a BETTER ripoff then what Warcraft is now. However i think the problem here lies in complete and utter lack of passion from writers towards the Alliance. Because Unifcation is the ONLY way to keep horde doing dastardly deeds and then somehow not ending the plot with either genocide of entire Alliance races or next MuhCamps. Blame the lack of Alliance "fans" in Devs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Oh wait I got it. They're totally gonna rezz all the fallen nelves if they redeem Sylvanas, aren't they? Holy shit, they totally will. She'll have the power to unmake reality at her fingertips and she'll choose to rez the elves instead. Omg, I cracked the code. Screencap this.



    Let this cinematic be your answer. It converted me into a full blown member of the Church of Sylvanas
    As a russian each time a politician shouts something patriotic i cringe so all the way back then i said "Yeah, like anybody can be so "pro factional" for real if they have a shred of power.".

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Horde being mustache twirling shitlords never sat well with me. Like... sure they shouldnt be Alliance but i always liked the more... heroic horde i guess? Because orcs and undead and minotaurs are NEVER heroic in other settings. Well, maybe in Spellforce but Spellforce is Warcraft ripoff. BY THE WAY a BETTER ripoff then what Warcraft is now. However i think the problem here lies in complete and utter lack of passion from writers towards the Alliance. Because Unifcation is the ONLY way to keep horde doing dastardly deeds and then somehow not ending the plot with either genocide of entire Alliance races or next MuhCamps. Blame the lack of Alliance "fans" in Devs.
    Oh, yeah, as said, my preferred Horde is the Cataclysm one, but playing through Maldraxxus really showed that nothing was stopping them from humanizing even people way out there from the pre-Calia Forsaken if they wanted to, or to merge that very well with an ethos of martial honor. They just didn't do it. But I would prefer a situation of cartoonish playable good vs cartoonish playable evil to a bland good chugging on. We only saw the results of this nightmare scenario in the Shadowlands intro, with all the Covenants having a lot of bells and whistles attached that make them marginally interesting to follow, but the end result of BFA was to leave the Horde with nothing to call their own. Baine goes without saying, but look at what Thrall, the premier Horde character is doing while Jaina is wasting hordes of Mawsworn and Anduin is threatening to get interesting. He shows up already crippled, gets healed and then goes Goldilocks on some axes in a comedy sidequest that's horrifically out of touch with what the zone is trying to do and reduces a character who was teasing a recovery in Shadows Rising to a meme. Thrall's keynote weapon is the Doomhammer for fuck's sake, so it isn't even meming correctly.

    I do entirely agree though that they aren't all that interested in telling Alliance-specific stories, just generic heroic high fantasy stories through them, hence why no matter if the Alliance get werewolves, a continent spanning matriarchal empire of nocturnal elves, 25k year old holy warriors or agents of cosmic entropy they'll eventually defer to and act identically with a human teenager.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    The question is what does Sylvannas represent for her fanbase? Do they like Sylvannas because she produces drama or is there something else?
    the savior that the forsaken worship. frankly i dont care about her, personally. but i played a race characterized from the start to be fucking mad devoted to her. that was a nice change of peace where most of the playable races in fantasy games are anthem of individualism, justice and freedom (and to be clear, i only love to rp strange things)
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2020-11-26 at 06:12 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    the savior that the forsaken worship. frankly i dont care about her, personally. but i played a race characterized from the start to be fucking mad devoted to her. that was a nice change of peace where most of the playable races in fantasy games are anthem of individualism and freedom
    Their individuality reminds me of this scene from Life of Brian. In practice all races are mirrors of their most prominent characters to one or the other extent, especially in the current super hero esque format. We can all dream about how there's actually gnomes who are most invested in reclaiming their home or exporting democracy given that they're the only users of the system or goblins who bemoan the materialism of their lives but their only representatives are memes and so the race is a meme. Humans who you'd think would be more varied have no characters who both disagree with Anduin and a) don't turn out to be cultists in one-off quests b) vanish like Rogers.

    The benefit of the Forsaken leadership cult is that it's an in-story construct and while the majority act as rote, as is the point since all races are vectors for a fantasy, it means that when one does act out of character or differs with Sylvanas that's a big deal and can take any form. From someone who thinks she's too bad (Judkins, Darkmar, the Rotbrains) to someone who thinks she's too good (Godfrey, Stillwater). Races who's leadership cult is a function of their story that doesn't have an in-game element can't have that drama because the drama doesn't exist in the narrative. Hence why the House of Nobles vanished the second Wrynnitis began to overtake the Alliance.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, yeah, as said, my preferred Horde is the Cataclysm one, but playing through Maldraxxus really showed that nothing was stopping them from humanizing even people way out there from the pre-Calia Forsaken if they wanted to, or to merge that very well with an ethos of martial honor. They just didn't do it. But I would prefer a situation of cartoonish playable good vs cartoonish playable evil to a bland good chugging on. We only saw the results of this nightmare scenario in the Shadowlands intro, with all the Covenants having a lot of bells and whistles attached that make them marginally interesting to follow, but the end result of BFA was to leave the Horde with nothing to call their own. Baine goes without saying, but look at what Thrall, the premier Horde character is doing while Jaina is wasting hordes of Mawsworn and Anduin is threatening to get interesting. He shows up already crippled, gets healed and then goes Goldilocks on some axes in a comedy sidequest that's horrifically out of touch with what the zone is trying to do and reduces a character who was teasing a recovery in Shadows Rising to a meme. Thrall's keynote weapon is the Doomhammer for fuck's sake, so it isn't even meming correctly.

    I do entirely agree though that they aren't all that interested in telling Alliance-specific stories, just generic heroic high fantasy stories through them, hence why no matter if the Alliance get werewolves, a continent spanning matriarchal empire of nocturnal elves, 25k year old holy warriors or agents of cosmic entropy they'll eventually defer to and act identically with a human teenager.
    And "cartoonish good VS cartoonish evil" is what brought us to that point. You SHOULD understand that NOBODY wants to play a victim for others to kick in the nuts, spit on, humiliate and crush only to stand back up and offer then forgiveness, love and christian moral values? Because thats not only boring but also NOT heroic and ultimately not good. Because in cartoonish evil Evil never goes full genocidal and never actually hurts good to the point where hugging it out is no longer an option.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And "cartoonish good VS cartoonish evil" is what brought us to that point. You SHOULD understand that NOBODY wants to play a victim for others to kick in the nuts, spit on, humiliate and crush only to stand back up and offer then forgiveness, love and christian moral values? Because thats not only boring but also NOT heroic and ultimately not good. Because in cartoonish evil Evil never goes full genocidal and never actually hurts good to the point where hugging it out is no longer an option.
    To clarify, I mean that cartoonish good vs. cartoonish evil would oppose each other perpetually while getting occasionally interrupted and put in a corner to focus on Satan. More GI: Joe and Cobra or SW:TOR's Empire and Republic, of the sort that the faction invasions and the Alliance war campaign was than the preening, moralizing nonsense that made BFA such an insufferable slog. Were it up to me, the Alliance would have won a straight victory in Lordaeron rather than it being a copout and I'd have commissioned a novella to explore both the living and undead inhabitants of Lordaeron's reaction to something they've been feuding over quite literally since the game came out. Also not burn a tree full of civvies and thus kneecap any resolution that isn't a humongous copout, but you know how it is.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-11-26 at 06:25 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    To clarify, I mean that cartoonish good vs. cartoonish evil would oppose each other perpetually while getting occasionally interrupted and put in a corner to focus on Satan. More GI: Joe and Cobra or SW:TOR's Empire and Republic, of the sort that the faction invasions and the Alliance war campaign was than the preening, moralizing nonsense that made BFA such an insufferable slog. Were it up to me, the Alliance would have won a straight victory in Lordaeron rather than it being a copout and I'd have commissioned a novella to explore both the living and undead inhabitants of Lordaeron's reaction to something they've been feuding over quite literally since the game came out. Also not burn a tree full of civvies and thus kneecap any resolution that isn't a humongous copout, but you know how it is.
    Basically that. If Teldrassil burned but it was empty of inhabitants by that point there wouldnt be NEARLY so much drama. Even slutvanas retarded escapade would look far less revolting in context of her inevitable redemption if most of those souls she fed to the Maw were warriors of both factions who died in battle. Etc, etc. And yes, Lordaeron being a "oh you win nothing, hahaha" was so... weak. Like, cant they allow her to SOMETIMES not to be the "perfect goddess of death" and allow her to flee for once without shit eating smirk?

  11. #131
    sylvanas is going to break the fourth wall in shadowlands and bring the fight to us

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    sylvanas is going to break the fourth wall in shadowlands and bring the fight to us
    "We have no free will because we're characters in a video game. The only way to break free is to crash this franchise. That's why you should listen and agree with me, Anduin. Only redeeming me will piss enough of those nerds off to put this game out of its misery and emancipate us from mental slavery." - Sylvanas.

    Basically that. If Teldrassil burned but it was empty of inhabitants by that point there wouldnt be NEARLY so much drama. Even slutvanas retarded escapade would look far less revolting in context of her inevitable redemption if most of those souls she fed to the Maw were warriors of both factions who died in battle. Etc, etc. And yes, Lordaeron being a "oh you win nothing, hahaha" was so... weak. Like, cant they allow her to SOMETIMES not to be the "perfect goddess of death" and allow her to flee for once without shit eating smirk?
    If it's any comfort, it was followed up by Horde losing every major engagement and having the entire 8.0 component of war campaign be pointless and spending the entire rest of it except for the fairly good invasion of Zuldazar parts in a civil war and killing our own side, regardless of our 'muh honor' or 'muh zomboobs' allegiance. The story is written by the writers who want to tell you about world peace, not for either section of the playerbase.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Rampant Rabbit View Post
    sylvanas is going to break the fourth wall in shadowlands and bring the fight to us
    I mean the storytelling has been an assault on the playerbase’s intelligence since Cataclysm.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post
    I mean the storytelling has been an assault on the playerbase’s intelligence since Cataclysm.
    *since vanilla. Night elves in the Alliance and Forsaken in the Horde will never not be retarded. TBC, blood elves/draenei, rape of Kael's character... the list goes on. That shit has always been there. Now that we have more cinematics and other additional material it's just more apparent. That's why for my own mental well-being I focus on the "now" in the story and mostly ignore the mess from old expansions
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-11-26 at 06:52 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    "We have no free will because we're characters in a video game. The only way to break free is to crash this franchise. That's why you should listen and agree with me, Anduin. Only redeeming me will piss enough of those nerds off to put this game out of its misery and emancipate us from mental slavery." - Sylvanas.


    If it's any comfort, it was followed up by Horde losing every major engagement and having the entire 8.0 component of war campaign be pointless and spending the entire rest of it except for the fairly good invasion of Zuldazar parts in a civil war and killing our own side, regardless of our 'muh honor' or 'muh zomboobs' allegiance. The story is written by the writers who want to tell you about world peace, not for either section of the playerbase.
    Nah, its because the game's plot is an abominable mix of SJW uber-Californian narrative and middle age crisis "death metul" neckbeards who think that genocide it totally rad. Two completely opposite directions mix and match since lots of those people suffer from BOTH of those delusions and we end up getting what we got.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Nah, its because the game's plot is an abominable mix of SJW uber-Californian narrative and middle age crisis "death metul" neckbeards who think that genocide it totally rad. Two completely opposite directions mix and match since lots of those people suffer from BOTH of those delusions and we end up getting what we got.
    kek, because an ultra puritanical narrative straight from the '50 would be better.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  17. #137
    When Sylvanas stopped at "We can't even choose who...", she meant to say "who we spend our lives with". My guess is that she's still salty Vereesa did not want to kill herself and her children to join Sylvanas and her ugly zombie friends. This was a VERY critical moment for her, as after this failed reunion she resolved that she would NEVER attempt to feel love again, and went on a frenzy. Also, the memory of the more recent failed reunion with Alleria and Vereesa is probably still fresh in her mind.

    If any of you in this thread interact with other people on a daily basis (you can't take anything for granted here), you'll know that many times you want to spend more time with someone else, but circumstances that are beyond your control impede that. This is especially true during this time of lockdown.

    Still, that doesn't give her the right to literally commit genocide.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 07:06 PM.

  18. #138
    Teldrassil wasn't even a genocide and damn Golden for using the big word for cheap emotional reaction. They see the big scary wordGENOCIDE! and instantly feel fear. Did Truman commit genocide when he decided to drop the bomb on Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Haven't seen a single historical source that would use that wording.

    edit: before someone shouts at me, I'm not endorsing it or trying to diminish its gravity, but don't call a genocide what isn't a genocide
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-11-26 at 07:25 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    kek, because an ultra puritanical narrative straight from the '50 would be better.
    Where did i said about that narrative? Dont put words in my mouth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Teldrassil wasn't even a genocide and damn Golden for using the big word for cheap emotional reaction. They see the big scary wordGENOCIDE! and instantly feel fear. Did Truman commit genocide when he decided to drop the bomb on Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Haven't seen a single historical source that would use that wording.

    edit: before someone shouts at me, I'm not endorsing it or trying to diminish its gravity, but don't call a genocide what isn't a genocide
    I already said that ten million times but i will repeat. They specifically went on a lengthy explanation how night elven population kept "retracting" from their spread out holdings and settlements first to Ashenvale and then to Darkshore and then to Teldrassil because of horde aggression. In the end it was like toothpaste all pushed into the very tip of the tube and burning "smashed" it entirely. So context is that first elves pretty much in majority ran off or immigrated there and then got burned to death. Hence genocide.

  20. #140
    It is also mentioned by the priestess that it is genocide because the vast majority of night elf population on Azeroth lived in Teldrassil. When you annihilate the vast majority of a species' population, you commit genocide.

    It's a rather simple and straightforward concept, really.

    This hypocritical fool committed genocide because she's still salty Vereesa didn't want herself and her kids to be turned into zombie by the wretched Forsaken, how pathetic.

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