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  1. #141
    So Sylvanas wants to destroy shadowlands, kill millions and have the jailer enslave us because the system is unfair. Sargeras wanted to destroy planets and enslave the survivors to save the universe from the void. sylvanas = sargeras

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    So Sylvanas wants to destroy shadowlands, kill millions and have the jailer enslave us because the system is unfair. Sargeras wanted to destroy planets and enslave the survivors to save the universe from the void. sylvanas = sargeras
    It is also very likely that Sargeras himself was manipulated by the Nathrezim (who serve Denathrius, and thus the Jailer) to become terrified of the Void. Like the Nathrezim set the perfect conditions for Sargears' descent into madness.

    There's one thing Sargeras and Sylvanas have in common: they are both delusional fools who are being played like fiddles by the Jailer. It's sad how they are both completely clueless, but then again I suppose poor minds think alike.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 08:09 PM.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    It is also very likely that Sargeras himself was manipulated by the Nathrezim (who serve Denathrius, and thus the Jailer) to become terrified of the Void. Like the Nathrezim set the perfect conditions for Sargears' descent into madness.

    There's one thing Sargeras and Sylvanas have in common: they are both delusional fools who are being played like fiddles by the Jailer. It's sad how they are both completely clueless, but then again I suppose poor minds think alike.
    Funny thing is I feel the same way about Alleria. She keeps playing with powers she doesn't understand and is an unwitting pawn of the Void Lords.

    Anduin is another pawn, to think of it, very few main character's in wow aren't pawns of one power or another.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Funny thing is I feel the same way about Alleria. She keeps playing with powers she doesn't understand and is an unwitting pawn of the Void Lords.

    Anduin is another pawn, to think of it, very few main character's in wow aren't pawns of one power or another.
    Alleria is pawn to no one. She is her own master. The Void Lords can try to whisper in her ear as long as they want, as they have tried for centuries. They will always fail.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 09:44 PM.

  5. #145
    We are not redeeming Sylvanas. Quote me on it.

    Someone having motivations beyond "bwar har we're evil" is not the same thing. Though I do think this is hinting that, by the end, we will fundamentally alter how the Shadowlands works rather than resuming it to the system we started with, which we have established between this and Uther's cinematic has its fair share of problems even before Sylvanas started breaking things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daevelian View Post
    So this is how far the Lore forum has fallen? Eesh.
    I take it back, BfA is not the lowest the games lore could have gone, this thread proves that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    We are not redeeming Sylvanas. Quote me on it.

    Someone having motivations beyond "bwar har we're evil" is not the same thing. Though I do think this is hinting that, by the end, we will fundamentally alter how the Shadowlands works rather than resuming it to the system we started with, which we have established between this and Uther's cinematic has its fair share of problems even before Sylvanas started breaking things.
    Uther IS the problem. Arguably he did more harm to the system then good and also more harm to people outside of it when he allowed his anger over Arthas to cloud the judgement of an Arbiter. He is the showcase of WHY Kyrians need to be clean, stripped of memories - so that kind of lynching of souls didnt happened. Imagine a horde soldier’s soul tasked to ferry an Alliance member... He would chuck poor sob into the Maw for sure.

  7. #147
    Ok, I think I figured out what their angle is with Sylvanas and her issue with the Shadowlands. I'm not sure I like it, it's based on a retcon and I don't really trust the writers to pull it off in a way that isn't cheesy, but it does seem to tie a few cinematics and stories together.

    That child from the Warbringer cinematic? They will reveal that's her secret love child with Nathanos, and the "unjust system" either has to do with what happened to the child's soul, or with the fact that her soul couldn't go to the same afterlife. How it ties together with other story elements:

    - In the Warbringer cinematic, Sylvanas says "Take her! Run!" to the elf with the child. Sounds more like something you would say to a caretaker concerning your own child than to a mother already trying to escape.
    - It ties together better with the "You will soon join your loved ones" line. Now all family members go to the same place (even though it's horrible).
    - It explains the hate towards life and hope a little bit better; at least it's a step ahead of teen angst. If she lost her child, the cycle of life failed her, she lost "hope" in a future generation. Her perception could be that this chain is always going to break at one point or another. It also explains why she was enraged when Delaryn naively stated that life always wins.
    - It makes use of all the hints at a Sylvanas-Nathanos relationship without pushing their "love story" in the present (arguably, Nathanos himself might not even know or care about this love child).
    - Living-Sylvanas acting maternal with Nathanos's young cousin in Dark Mirror could have been a hint that she was pregnant or wanted a child.
    - It explains her "we can't even choose..." moment in the latest cinematic. "We can't even choose who we [spend eternity with]", when referring to a lost child, is less corny than when it refers to an arrogant undead lover boy.
    - It ties in with her previous obsession about the Undead being unable to procreate.
    - It makes Sylvanas more sympathetic at face value, and immediate emotional reaction is what the writers seem to be going for; it's unlikely that they would get people to sympathize with her if her motivation is abstract.

    Of course, this would throw most of Edge of Night out the window, but that story already doesn't mesh well with Shadowlands lore. They could even retcon her motivation for seeking beings who can stop death from trying to live forever to trying to locate and bring back the child's soul.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Uther IS the problem. Arguably he did more harm to the system then good and also more harm to people outside of it when he allowed his anger over Arthas to cloud the judgement of an Arbiter. He is the showcase of WHY Kyrians need to be clean, stripped of memories - so that kind of lynching of souls didnt happened. Imagine a horde soldier’s soul tasked to ferry an Alliance member... He would chuck poor sob into the Maw for sure.
    It's a weird case since there's actually some nuance to it as far as Blizzard writing goes. Playing through Bastion softened me a lot on the Kyrian since it only makes sense that you don't want people who can chuck you into super hell to be biased. On the other hand, Devos was cleared of all history and still went in the same direction as Uther, ditto Lysonia and bias will always have a role provided the kyrian keep the virtues that made them who they are. If a Kyrian, who's by nature a virtuous and heroic fellow, was going to collect the soul of say a serial killer taken out in the act and experienced what he did and how he felt great doing it, the temptation to chuck the dude into hell would be there for anyone who's not a robot. Keeping the memories though means that instead of a moral judgment, it's also a party political one. Teldrassil victim having to pick up one of the dudes on the catapults, or Stonespire tauren one of the dwarven riflemen can't exactly be trusted to ignore their personal thoughts and just bring them to the Arbiter and understandably so.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #149
    Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

    Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

    Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.
    Last edited by bagina; 2020-11-27 at 09:27 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

    Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

    Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.
    Kyrians are the true enemy. Disgusting practices.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's a weird case since there's actually some nuance to it as far as Blizzard writing goes. Playing through Bastion softened me a lot on the Kyrian since it only makes sense that you don't want people who can chuck you into super hell to be biased. On the other hand, Devos was cleared of all history and still went in the same direction as Uther, ditto Lysonia and bias will always have a role provided the kyrian keep the virtues that made them who they are. If a Kyrian, who's by nature a virtuous and heroic fellow, was going to collect the soul of say a serial killer taken out in the act and experienced what he did and how he felt great doing it, the temptation to chuck the dude into hell would be there for anyone who's not a robot. Keeping the memories though means that instead of a moral judgment, it's also a party political one. Teldrassil victim having to pick up one of the dudes on the catapults, or Stonespire tauren one of the dwarven riflemen can't exactly be trusted to ignore their personal thoughts and just bring them to the Arbiter and understandably so.
    Devos is clearly an anomaly and she was influenced by Bluether. A rusted cog that broken in a machine so to say. Because until her and Bluether there were no disobedience or deviance there, no Forsworn and no hickups in soul delivery... Aside from sylvanas but that is most likely because Jailer plucked her soul from Azeroth so fast Kyrian wasnt even there yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Uh-huh, then maybe send constructs to collect the souls, better yet, don't send guys who might have a personal history with the dead soul. That's how it should work. Judges don't need to be mind wiped to remain unbiased. Your Kyrians training should teach you self control, not wipe your mind. And like it was said, Devos still choose to disobey the system even after she got the wipe

    Coaxing someone into self-harm (in this case mind wipe) is still shady as fuck, no matter how much the victim believes they want it.

    Also, if they don't trust the Arbiter to make a fair judgement then maybe something's wrong with her? If every soul really got what they deserved then there wouldn't be a problem. Kyrians would know the wicked would go to the Maw anyway.
    Because by default almost NO SOULS go to the Maw. Its a 1% so to say. A smallest portion of souls so utterly evil, wicked and cruel that no amount of whipping in Revendreth will make them better or at least less destructive. A pure monsters of endless malice and evil. Arbiter judges most wicked souls to Revendreth where they receive an ass whooping and then go to other realms or stay there as "regulars".

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Kyrians are the true enemy. Disgusting practices.
    Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.
    If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by caervek View Post
    Indeed. I was pretty disgusted the whole way through the Kyrian part of the story and decided against picking them for covenant out of principle. I don't normally get reactive playing wow but this is the most vile questline I've been presented with since Cata and Alexstraza's ethnic cleansing chain.
    It's similar to the ethnic cleansing questline Sylvanas gave you in the BfA pre-patch too.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.
    "B-B-BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HORDE"
    Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference is the game wants you to treat the Kyrians as the good guys and assumes in advance you'd want to help them.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    So Sylvanas wants to destroy shadowlands, kill millions and have the jailer enslave us because the system is unfair. Sargeras wanted to destroy planets and enslave the survivors to save the universe from the void. sylvanas = sargeras
    iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

    Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

    I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

    So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    "B-B-BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HORDE"
    Two wrongs don't make a right. The difference is the game wants you to treat the Kyrians as the good guys and assumes in advance you'd want to help them.
    "B-B-BUT DONT BRING IN ARGUMENTS THAT MAKE MY OUTRAGE SOUND HYPOCRITICAL AND LAUGHABLE! ITS NO FAIR!"
    All things are known in comparison, an old russian proverb which implies that you can only judge by comparing one act to another and that everything exists in context of other events.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

    Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

    I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

    So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras
    And you trust the Jailer to create a better, fairer and more liberal system when he takes over? And people criticize unwashed and uneducated peasants for buying into communists promising them all kinds of goodies if they start waving red flags...

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    "B-B-BUT DONT BRING IN ARGUMENTS THAT MAKE MY OUTRAGE SOUND HYPOCRITICAL AND LAUGHABLE! ITS NO FAIR!"
    All things are known in comparison, an old russian proverb which implies that you can only judge by comparing one act to another.
    Whataboutism is not an argument.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    iirc Sargeras is using the legion and all this necessary evil to wipe out the entire universe and once it's done, he will then remake it into a paradise that the Void and probably the Light can't ever get into again. Only a small Legion members know of this, obviously Archimonde and KJ which makes more sense why they went along with this in the first place.

    Now that we know that shadowlands is basically the other side of the coin to the physical universe, and the Jailer wants to basically destroy the system and remake it for the better, it could be that these 2 were in league and planned to remake the physical universe and the shadowlands together. If what the Jailer says is true to Sylvanas(going based off what she's said) then yeah him and Sargeras are basically Ends Justify the Means evil dudes, but with good intentions.

    I think a lot of people are expecting the Jailer to betray sylvanas, or "Gotcha" but he seems to not look down at her as a minion, almost feels like how Sargeras and Archimonde/KJs relationship probably was, unlike how Azshara and N'zoth backstabbed each other.

    So I would say Sylvanas = KJ, and drank the coolaid of Zovaal = Sargeras
    The Jailer absolutely does not care about the freedom of mortals, since it's already been repeated many times that he is unambiguously evil and seeks to consume all of reality. He's blatantly manipulating Sylvanas.

    Sargeras definitely saw Kil'jaeden as a pawn, I have no idea why you think he would see Kil'jaeden as equal. He literally tricked him into servitude by showing visions of a glorious future for the Burning Crusade.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Whataboutism is not an argument.
    Maybe in your perception. Ignoring context and surrounding events is wrong. Things dont exist in a vacuum, all events are tied to one another and influence one another.

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