Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[MikeBogina]

If you play horde you might just choke on hypocrisy so prepare for a Heimlich maneuver.

Alliance:
Garithos sentenced the blood elves to death
Daelin tried to wipe out all the orcs
The Alliance hunted down the forsaken(In a vision, Varian would have wiped out the Forsaken in the future)
Alliance forces hunting the Darkspear on their own island
Jaina and her racial purge of Dalaran

I mean hypocrisy amirite?

[VladlTutushkin]

Alliance:
Garithos sentenced the blood elves to death
Daelin tried to wipe out all the orcs
The Alliance hunted down the forsaken(In a vision, Varian would have wiped out the Forsaken in the future)
Alliance forces hunting the Darkspear on their own island
Jaina and her racial purge of Dalaran

I mean hypocrisy amirite?

I can break down those and either bring the reason for that from horde's own actions or disprove those but that thread is not about that. And anyway, i am not outraging about Kyrians unlike some here.

[bagina]

Maybe in your perception. Ignoring context and surrounding events is wrong. Things dont exist in a vacuum, all events are tied to one another and influence one another.

You still didn't give an argument. Other being bad doesn't make Kyrians good. The difference is the game never tried to portray others as good, but does so with Kyrians. You don't see the difference? Kyrians are free to be whatever they want, but don't force me to pretend they're the good guys or that they have the moral highground. Like helping them is the only correct thing to do.

[MikeBogina]

The Jailer absolutely does not care about the freedom of mortals, since it's already been repeated many times that he is unambiguously evil and seeks to consume all of reality. He's blatantly manipulating Sylvanas.

Repeated by who exactly? And where is it said he wants to consume all reality?
I do agree with him manipulating Sylvanas, I made a thread on how I believe he tricked her into believing she was going to the maw, so she had no other choice but to ally with the guy who wants to break the maw open. You know who else was repeatedly evil? Arthas and it was revealed that even the Lich King Arthas(not the real Arthas) actually had good intentions.

Sargeras definitely saw Kil'jaeden as a pawn, I have no idea why you think he would see Kil'jaeden as equal. He literally tricked him into servitude by showing visions of a glorious future for the Burning Crusade.

Sargeras' plans were to use the legion to wipe out all life and then remake the universe and only the very high ups of the Legion knew of this. It wasn't going to remain a burning hell forever like most believe. in 7.2 KJ is angry with Sargeras and based on what Sargeras says, it does imply that Sargeras doesn't treat him like a pawn.
KJ goes on about the crusade, Sargeras replies "Our Crusade" will prevail. KJ angrily tells him that they've done things his way and it's failed and Sargeras again refers to it as "Our destiny" and only questions his resolve and KJ again replies with more anger. This isn't how it's usually done with a master and minion, Sargeras shows no anger at KJ, only "C'mon man, have faith!!!"
So yeah, I dont believe that Sargeras treated Archimonde and KJ as peons, especially because they knew of what the was to come after the universe was wiped clean.

[VladlTutushkin]

You still didn't give an argument. Other being bad doesn't make Kyrians good. The difference is the game never tried to portray others as good, but does so with Kyrians. You don't see the difference? Kyrians are free to be whatever they want, but don't force me to pretend they're the good guys or that they have the moral highground. Like helping them is the only correct thing to do.

And what is an alternative? You said "let constructs carry souls" but if that is not possible? Most likely the system wasnt created just because. It was shaped by necessity like any other such system. Its like saying "why they need Charon if they can just build a bridge instead" or "Why they need Peter with the Keys" and etc.

[MikeBogina]

I can break down those and either bring the reason for that from horde's own actions or disprove those but that thread is not about that.

You sure did bring up the Horde's hypocrisy in a thread that "is not about that".

The only argument you could ever make to all of those is how dare those mongrels not submit to the glorious human race... HYPOCRISY

[Super Dickmann]

Devos is clearly an anomaly and she was influenced by Bluether. A rusted cog that broken in a machine so to say. Because until her and Bluether there were no disobedience or deviance there, no Forsworn and no hickups in soul delivery... Aside from sylvanas but that is most likely because Jailer plucked her soul from Azeroth so fast Kyrian wasnt even there yet.

The thing with Bluether is that he could genuinely have been anyone. He didn't come as a result of a glitch in the Shadowlands past the soulsplitting thing and given the size of the Forsworn and the need for Purity/Loyalty in the first place, he also wasn't the only one to take issue with letting go of his background. Anyone could have spoken to Devos and told her about his background, have her take an interest in him and promote him before he was cleansed, then toss someone into the Maw. We don't know if this hadn't happened before since even once Devos is running the entire Forsworn conspiracy and working together with the Maw nobody notices for the entire pre-covenant campaign questing experience. Hell, Devos too could be anyone since she's already gone through the process and did what she did anyway.

There's something to be said about how they pretty much let the Forsworn wander off and sulk until they change their minds or voluntarily report to the Temple of Loyalty.

[Varodoc]

Repeated by who exactly? And where is it said he wants to consume all reality?
I do agree with him manipulating Sylvanas, I made a thread on how I believe he tricked her into believing she was going to the maw, so she had no other choice but to ally with the guy who wants to break the maw open. You know who else was repeatedly evil? Arthas and it was revealed that even the Lich King Arthas(not the real Arthas) actually had good intentions.

For starters, by Blizzard on the official Shadowlands website, which they have used to advertise the expansion since it was announced precisely one year ago.

I don't care about Arthas, he can rot with the Jailer, Sylvanas, and the other fools who wield powers they don't understand.

it does imply that Sargeras doesn't treat him like a pawn.

Literally nothing in that dialogue even remotely implies he saw him as an equal. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Kil'jaeden straight up tells Sargeras that he followed his design, his plan, and still failed.

Since you're focusing so much on pronouns, notice how Kil'jaeden says "everything WE have done has been by YOUR design" and then "all WE have to show for it is failure". Kil'jaeden sees himself, and every other demon in the Legion, as servants of Sargeras, who followed his design to the letter... and still failed. He doesn't treat Sargeras as part of the mass.

Sargeras replies "Our Crusade" will prevail.

He put up a facade to trick Kil'jaeden into thinking he mattered more than he really did. It's no different than Sylvanas pretending she cared about the Horde, when she saw it as a mere tool. That's a basic deception strategy.

Sargeras was the supreme leader of the Legion. Kil'jaeden was his subordinate, not his equal.

[VladlTutushkin]

You sure did bring up the Horde's hypocrisy in a thread that "is not about that".

The only argument you could ever make to all of those is how dare those mongrels not submit to the glorious human race... HYPOCRISY

No, its more like "how could those orcs invade a planet and then be mad over humans putting them in camps". And so on. Only real victims here are trolls but Darkspear ended up on those islands because other trolls chased them off from Stranglethorn and tried to eradicate them.
And "vision" is not a good reason to claim that it would have happened. Especially now when we know about Jailer and that he is basically Boss of those Val'kyrs. He just shown her what she wanted to see to prove her point of "lets kill all the living".

[bagina]

And what is an alternative? You said "let constructs carry souls" but if that is not possible? Most likely the system wasnt created just because. It was shaped by necessity like any other such system. Its like saying "why they need Charon if they can just build a bridge instead" or "Why they need Peter with the Keys" and etc.

They'll never know if there's a better way until they try. They assume there's not other way, but there clearly is. If not through the Jailer, then through something else.

[loras]

Alliance:
Garithos sentenced the blood elves to death
Daelin tried to wipe out all the orcs
The Alliance hunted down the forsaken(In a vision, Varian would have wiped out the Forsaken in the future)
Alliance forces hunting the Darkspear on their own island
Jaina and her racial purge of Dalaran

I mean hypocrisy amirite?

Garithos was neither part nor precedent of present day alliance, that's like blaming the horde for those orcs in blackrock mountain.
Daelin could not be stopped without the help of Jaina, who has been part of the alliance far longer than Kul Tiras.
The forsaken are not exactly a race and thus cannot be subjected to genocide. Even calling it just "killing" or some variation thereof becomes very weird very quickly due to their dead-but-not-quite nature. Combine that with their own contempt for their existence and it becomes clear that killing them hardly qualifies as evil.
Trolls and humans have been at eachother's throats since forever, neither side has made proper efforts towards peace, thus if either side comes close to victory they can hardly be blamed for seizing it.
Dalaran was not a racial purge, it was elf versus traitor elf at Jaina's command, and hardly involved enough bloodshed to be worth a mention.

[MikeBogina]

And you trust the Jailer to create a better, fairer and more liberal system when he takes over? And people criticize unwashed and uneducated peasants for buying into communists promising them all kinds of goodies if they start waving red flags...

No clue, dont know what his true motives are or what this remade system would look like. Weirdly enough, Sargeras wants to put in place a system while Zovaal seems to want to end the current system of his side of it.

Regardless if it works in the end, I dont see killing millions or billions justified.

[VladlTutushkin]

The thing with Bluether is that he could genuinely have been anyone. He didn't come as a result of a glitch in the Shadowlands past the soulsplitting thing and given the size of the Forsworn and the need for Purity/Loyalty in the first place, he also wasn't the only one to take issue with letting go of his background. Anyone could have spoken to Devos and told her about his background, have her take an interest in him and promote him before he was cleansed, then toss someone into the Maw. We don't know if this hadn't happened before since even once Devos is running the entire Forsworn conspiracy and working together with the Maw nobody notices for the entire pre-covenant campaign questing experience. Hell, Devos too could be anyone since she's already gone through the process and did what she did anyway.

There's something to be said about how they pretty much let the Forsworn wander off and sulk until they change their minds or voluntarily report to the Temple of Loyalty.

And yet it only became with Bluether and Devos. Not in long eons before that. Sorry but simply put data speaks for itself. It was a perfect storm brewed up when two atoms aka Bluether and Devos met and explosion happened. Not without some nudging from Mistah J either. Plus i am sure that Uther's soul being split is to blame. Why? Because Uther (not Bluether) that stayed on Azeroth was not as vengeful towards Arthas and if his soul was whole then we wouldnt have ended up with Arthas cast into the Maw. Him being basically "yin and yang" split caused that.

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No clue, dont know what his true motives are or what this remade system would look like. Weirdly enough, Sargeras wants to put in place a system while Zovaal seems to want to end the current system of his side of it.

Regardless if it works in the end, I dont see killing millions or billions justified.

So do you side with him or not? You agree with his methods and acts or not? Be clear.

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They'll never know if there's a better way until they try. They assume there's not other way, but there clearly is. If not through the Jailer, then through something else.

Through what? Its the same as people who claim that they know how to build a paradise for a common worker and a peasant through glorious Revolution and then we end up with GULAGs and food shortages.

[bagina]

Through what? Its the same as people who claim that they know how to build a paradise for a common worker and a peasant through glorious Revolution and then we end up with GULAGs and food shortages.

Bastion is already a place where you're stripped of all individuality, memories and your physical traits to become one with the blue monolith. If that's the best Shadowlands has to offer, then I say it's better to completely ignore the Shadowlands and just let you die when you die.

[Super Dickmann]

And yet it only became with Bluether and Devos. Not in long eons before that. Sorry but simply put data speaks for itself. It was a perfect storm brewed up when two atoms aka Bluether and Devos met and explosion happened. Not without some nudging from Mistah J either. Plus i am sure that Uther's soul being split is to blame. Why? Because Uther (not Bluether) that stayed on Azeroth was not as vengeful towards Arthas and if his soul was whole then we wouldnt have ended up with Arthas cast into the Maw. Him being basically "yin and yang" split caused that.

In a high trust society where you don't doubt people will voluntarily go to lobotomize themselves even one person who refuses to cooperate and abuses that trust can fuck it up, which is what ends up happening. The split Uther not being as vengeful honestly says more about how good a guy Uther is than the absence of such people. I don't figure all that many people would be happy with it. Plus, we're dealing with an infinite period of time. It would happen eventually. Bastion isn't fucked from Day 1 the way Revendreth is, but it's still bound to fuck up purely by way of probability eventually and in a way very similar to the one that actually happened. Whether the correction to be done is someone actually checking what happens to those who aren't convinced or keeping their memories is up to decide. I'd lean more towards the former, since while we do see ghost therapists, it comes as a complete shock to them that the Forsworn didn't hand themselves in to the Temple. On top of that, Devos and Lysonia show what happens when you take people on for their virtues then eliminate their connection to why they had those virtues in the first place and just trust them to carry on out of habit after those reasons are gone. They both go completely out of the deep end because they're good out of contractual reasons not because they have a working theory of mind.

That said, @bagina 's take on it is a bit overdramatic. The Kyrian have different personalities afterwards and can obviously disagree enough that they start a civil war afterwards and fuck the whole thing up.

[VladlTutushkin]

Bastion is already a place where you're stripped of all individuality, memories and your physical traits to become one with the blue monolith. If that's the best Shadowlands has to offer, then I say it's better to completely ignore the Shadowlands and just let you die when you die.

And according to the lore you are not supposed to go there if you arent "fit" for it. Bluether was a big fuckup because his soul got splt essentially in half.

[MikeBogina]

Garithos was neither part nor precedent of present day alliance, that's like blaming the horde for those orcs in blackrock mountain.

literally yes he was and there was 2 hordes at that point...

Daelin could not be stopped without the help of Jaina, who has been part of the alliance far longer than Kul Tiras.

Yes he could, she helped cause it was the right thing to do and she wanted the Horde to not kill everyone. Also Kul'tiras has been in the alliance for a long time, they actually left the Alliance after this battle....

At this point I realize you dont know what the Alliance is xD

The forsaken are not exactly a race and thus cannot be subjected to genocide. Even calling it just "killing" or some variation

Oh my bad, yeah kill as many of them as you want because they technically aren't a race...

thereof becomes very weird very quickly due to their dead-but-not-quite nature. Combine that with their own contempt for their existence and it becomes clear that killing them hardly qualifies as evil.

That is something an evil person would say to justify their killing of a group they viewed as lesser than them.

Trolls and humans have been at eachother's throats since forever, neither side has made proper efforts towards peace, thus if either side comes close to victory they can hardly be blamed for seizing it.

But you just tried playing off what Garithos has done as not the Alliance, but here you have a group of Trolls who the Alliance are trying to wipe out on the Troll's own island, despite that these 2 groups having no history with eachother.

Dalaran was not a racial purge, it was elf versus traitor elf at Jaina's command, and hardly involved enough bloodshed to be worth a mention.

It was Jaina, humans and Silver covenant elves killing all blood elves or imprisoning them, because one elf helped Garrosh and it was so much bloodshed worth noting. You don't get to downplay it because it doesn't suit your bias.

So back to Alliance hypocrisy. The fact that you try to justify any of these, is how hypocrisy works. You believe what you do is justified while calling out others for what they do...

[VladlTutushkin]

In a high trust society where you don't doubt people will voluntarily go to lobotomize themselves even one person who refuses to cooperate and abuses that trust can fuck it up, which is what ends up happening. The split Uther not being as vengeful honestly says more about how good a guy Uther is than the absence of such people. I don't figure all that many people would be happy with it. Plus, we're dealing with an infinite period of time. It would happen eventually. Bastion isn't fucked from Day 1 the way Revendreth is, but it's still bound to fuck up purely by way of probability eventually and in a way very similar to the one that actually happened. Whether the correction to be done is someone actually checking what happens to those who aren't convinced or keeping their memories is up to decide. I'd lean more towards the former, since while we do see ghost therapists, it comes as a complete shock to them that the Forsworn didn't hand themselves in to the Temple. On top of that, Devos and Lysonia show what happens when you take people on for their virtues then eliminate their connection to why they had those virtues in the first place and just trust them to carry on out of habit after those reasons are gone. They both go completely out of the deep end because they're good out of contractual reasons not because they have a working theory of mind.

That said, @bagina 's take on it is a bit overdramatic. The Kyrian have different personalities afterwards and can obviously disagree enough that they start a civil war afterwards and fuck the whole thing up.

Also Forsworn are also a cult, just the same way as "counter cult" sometimes go to the same extremes as the cults that spawned them. Like racism that created SJW or tasrism that created communism and so on. They also take memories away and force their members to convert or face punishment, etc.

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literally yes he was and there was 2 hordes at that point...

Yes he could, she helped cause it was the right thing to do and she wanted the Horde to not kill everyone. Also Kul'tiras has been in the alliance for a long time, they actually left the Alliance after this battle....

At this point I realize you dont know what the Alliance is xD


Oh my bad, yeah kill as many of them as you want because they technically aren't a race...

That is something an evil person would say to justify their killing of a group they viewed as lesser than them.

But you just tried playing off what Garithos has done as not the Alliance, but here you have a group of Trolls who the Alliance are trying to wipe out on the Troll's own island, despite that these 2 groups having no history with eachother.

It was Jaina, humans and Silver covenant elves killing all blood elves or imprisoning them, because one elf helped Garrosh and it was so much bloodshed worth noting. You don't get to downplay it because it doesn't suit your bias.

So back to Alliance hypocrisy. The fact that you try to justify any of these, is how hypocrisy works. You believe what you do is justified while calling out others for what they do...

Funny thing how it always horde that ends up with a pile of corpses if Alliance is so "evil". I should say , i would love to, no, i CRAVE that to be true. Oh the whine! The sheer screams of the horde being crucified and tortured or lobotomized, or their young taken for reeducation janissary style... Delightful! And best thing? It hardly matters because apparently no amount of ridiculous lenience will make a difference. Horde will ALWAYS call Alliance "raaaacist" so why not give them a good reason to?

[Super Dickmann]

Also Forsworn are also a cult, just the same way as "counter cult" sometimes go to the same extremes as the cults that spawned them. Like racism that created SJW or tasrism that created communism and so on. They also take memories away and force their members to convert or face punishment, etc.

Yeah, they have an ability literally called [Steal Memories] and they force others to remember their background or kill them. But they're a hopeless case even without the Maw association because their reasons for rebelling have nothing to do with actually doing their jobs after the fact. It is about them, not about the cosmic purpose they're supposed to do. What I'm getting at is that this is to be expected when you remove the memories that made them fitting candidates for Bastion in the first place. Sure, some, even a majority might still continue doing what they're supposed to afterwards, but as we see there's plenty who quickly drop that pretense when given an outlet that validates them personally and when depersonalization is on the table anyway.

[MikeBogina]

So do you side with him or not? You agree with his methods and acts or not? Be clear.

Did you read the last part? I said I dont see it justified, regardless if it works in the end.

Is it that I don't look at all these baddies as cookie cutter villains, but try to understand them that makes you think I agree with them?