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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    The question I ask is, what would Helya and her Val'kyr know that could do such a thing, and what on Azeroth is wholly unique enough that it would disable the Arbiter, while uncountable souls from all worlds across all universes could not?

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    We also have to take into account that the Jailer helped Sylvanas become Warchief. Any other would still have killed Gul'Dan and Argus, her promotion wasn't necessary for that.

  2. #62
    well.... didn't we kill helya? maybe she broke the arbiter. Maybe without her lantern she goes to the arbiter instead of helheim. we only see her in the maw when we go. After the arbiter broke, everyone went to the maw.... we are just assuming that she just came from helheim and hasn't been there for awhile.

  3. #63
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    And was it ever confirmed why Sylvanas used the Knaifu to lead the hero to Azshara? Was that just, 'release N'Zoth to kill more people and feed the Maw' at that point, or was it part of the greater plan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shockzine View Post
    well.... didn't we kill helya? maybe she broke the arbiter. Maybe without her lantern she goes to the arbiter instead of helheim. we only see her in the maw when we go. After the arbiter broke, everyone went to the maw.... we are just assuming that she just came from helheim and hasn't been there for awhile.
    Maybe? I don't think she was powerful enough or 'toxic' enough though.

  4. #64
    she didn't nathanos under her orders, did. she brought both navys to the middle of the ocean and had ashara delete the ocean. that would quickly add people to the maw. It would also distract any that would overthrow her with the threat of the naga and n'zoth.

  5. #65
    I doubt any answer that wasn't directly caused by Jailer/Slyvannas. If thier grand plan started with "just wait until the Arbiter breaks I guess" is underwhelming

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    Maybe? I don't think she was powerful enough or 'toxic' enough though.
    well helya is a titan watcher. They confirmed that creatures return to their home plane on death, so even argus would go to the plane of order and not the shadowlands. But because of Odyn's intervention this is a creature of order that is bound and tethered to the realm of death. This sort of programming did not compute and caused a glich sending her to the shadowlands instead of the realm of order. When brought before the arbitor she caused the arbitor to BSOD'd as she couldn't open a portal to the realm of order. No one has yet to find the Arbitor's reset button to fix the situation
    Last edited by shockzine; 2020-11-25 at 03:06 AM.

  7. #67
    what we know for sure

    - 100% sure related to the Legion ( because dreadlord, because Jailer's plan )
    - 50% sure related to Argus ( death thematic, death titan )
    - 50% sure is dreadlord magic done to a specific soul aimed directly at the arbiter once dead ( but I still think its argus )
    - Jailer is interested in Azeorth's soul so titans defo have link to SL.



    + We don't know what happened after we leave the seat of the Pantheon. Sargeras may have killed Argus during a possible battle with Illidan or whatever.

    Soul of titan can go into the shadowlands, soul of demon can go there too. Kyrian can ferry them but are forbidden to do it if it does not belong to the shadowlands.

    So a Traitor Valkyr ( DEVOS !!!! ) could very well have ferried Argus Soul ( or a part of it ) to the shadowlands to fuck up the Purpose.
    Last edited by Engal; 2020-11-25 at 03:22 AM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    the soul of argus was used to seal Sargeras.
    they would have to recton more to make it fit.
    From what I can find (And remember, since it's been a while since I did Antorus)

    Aman'Thul: We will use the last glimmer of Argus's power to bind him here. The Seat of the Pantheon shall become Sargeras's prison... and ours as well.

    Argus's power was used to seal Sargeras, not his soul.

    As of now, I am placing my bet on Argus as well. Afterall we would need someone to replace The Jailor after we beat him in 9.3, and seeing how he's being described as "Titan-Level" and "Titan Plus Plus Level" by Ion, I doubt his position could be filled by someone like Sylvanas. Who else are more suited to fill a vacancy left behind by a "Titan-Level" character than an actual Titan?

    Obviously, this will involve some sort of healing or cleansing ritual for the soul of Argus, which will also bring back Arbiter. I have no idea how the event will unfold, but currently this one looks the simplest, and thus most likely.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    what we know for sure

    - 100% sure related to the Legion ( because dreadlord, because Jailer's plan )
    - 50% sure related to Argus ( death thematic, death titan )
    - 50% sure is dreadlord magic done to a specific soul aimed directly at the arbiter once dead ( but I still think its argus )
    - Jailer is interested in Azeorth's soul so titans defo have link to SL.



    + We don't know what happened after we leave the seat of the Pantheon. Sargeras may have killed Argus during a possible battle with Illidan or whatever.

    Soul of titan can go into the shadowlands, soul of demon can go there too. Kyrian can ferry them but are forbidden to do it if it does not belong to the shadowlands.

    So a Traitor Valkyr ( forwsworn ) could very well have ferried Argus Soul ( or a part of it ) to the shadowlands to fuck up the Purpose.
    While I agree that's possible if the Jailer's plan needed a bunch of mortals to kill a Argus then his insanely lucky it actually worked. There were so many times in Legion invasion that we could have lost and his plan completely fails.

    Also Blizzard have said Titans souls got back to their home realm, not the Shadowlands. I guess it's possible a kyrian could maybe take a Titans soul maybe? But demons don't seem to require ferrying to the Nether so I'd guess a titans soul would be more like a demons then a mortals.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-11-25 at 03:27 AM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    While I agree that's possible if the Jailer's plan needed a bunch of mortals to kill a Argus then his insanely lucky it actually worked. There were so many times in Legion invasion that we could have lost and his plan completely fails.

    Also Blizzard have said Titans souls got back to their home realm, not the Shadowlands.


    They can. like the demons. But the Kyrian can ferry them if they want to, to the shadowlands. They don't do it can it's forbidden. But now that the Jailer has Devos to his side, and Devos is clearly not on the " Path " anymore.... Add 1+1 and you know what may have happened.

    It's a giant manipulation plot put un place by the Jailer and the Dreadlords who had eyes everywhere, and particularly on the Legion.

    It's fairly possible that the Dreadlord indirectly helped Azeroth win the Legion's war and managed to let them go to Argus through simple " push-weaving" events, after all, you don't see many dreadlords on Argus.

    It was, whatever happened, a winning situation for the Jailer. Either Azeroth Soul was coming up to the SL, or it was Argus. Regarding the outcome, the Jailer already had won. The only consideration he had was " fighting azeroth after, or fighting the Legion " to get his hands on a world soul.

    Azeroth is not a strong military forces as what he gots. And The Legion was filled with his agents in high position.
    Last edited by Engal; 2020-11-25 at 03:31 AM.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    They can. like the demons. But the Kyrian can ferry them if they want to, to the shadowlands. They don't do it can it's forbidden. But now that the Jailer has Devos to his side, and Devos is clearly not on the " Path " anymore.... Add 1+1 and you know what may have happened.
    Is there anything suggesting Kyrains can ferry non-mortal souls? The process for titans is most likely automatic like demons, neither are mortal.

    It's possible but for the soul that breaks the Arbiter is Argus but it requires so much chance, ifs and buts that it seems like a long shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    It's fairly possible that the Dreadlord indirectly helped Azeroth win the Legion's war and managed to let them go to Argus through simple " push-weaving" events, after all, you don't see many dreadlords on Argus.

    It was, whatever happened, a winning situation for the Jailer. Either Azeroth Soul was coming up to the SL, or it was Argus. Regarding the outcome, the Jailer already had won.
    Sargeras wanted to courpted Azeorth not kill it outright. Titan souls wouldn't go to the Shadowlands and nothing suggests Kyrian can ferry not mortal souls.

    Maybe the Dreadlords could help the War effort but again we used ALL the titans to best Sargeras and Argus. That's risking alot of a low probability outcome.


    From the recent interviews:

    "-Demons and other creatures not native to the Shadowlands can be seen in the Maldraxxus Theater of Pain. These are prisoners of the Necrolords as well as fodder provided by the brokers.
    - Maldraxxus exists to defend the Shadowlands from all threats. Sometimes this takes a more proactive approach, such as with the reveal of Draka on the demonic world in the Maldraxxus Afterlives video."

    So non-Shadowlands exist in the Shadowlands but this seem to be bought from other planes of realties alive. Not dead by Kyrians.
    Last edited by WonderZebra; 2020-11-25 at 03:42 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by nothingsjim View Post
    From what I can find (And remember, since it's been a while since I did Antorus)

    Aman'Thul: We will use the last glimmer of Argus's power to bind him here. The Seat of the Pantheon shall become Sargeras's prison... and ours as well.

    Argus's power was used to seal Sargeras, not his soul.

    As of now, I am placing my bet on Argus as well. Afterall we would need someone to replace The Jailor after we beat him in 9.3, and seeing how he's being described as "Titan-Level" and "Titan Plus Plus Level" by Ion, I doubt his position could be filled by someone like Sylvanas. Who else are more suited to fill a vacancy left behind by a "Titan-Level" character than an actual Titan?

    Obviously, this will involve some sort of healing or cleansing ritual for the soul of Argus, which will also bring back Arbiter. I have no idea how the event will unfold, but currently this one looks the simplest, and thus most likely.
    titans dont go to the shadowlands when they die.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    Is there anything suggesting Kyrains can ferry non-mortal souls? The process for titans is most likely automatic like demons, neither are mortal.

    It's possible but for the soul that breaks the Arbiter is Argus but it requires so much chance, ifs and buts that it seems like a long shot.

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    Sargeras wanted to courpted Azeorth not kill it outright.
    And he had dreadlords in the Legion, on the order of Denathrius, who could have started a whole civil and internal war in the Legion right after Legion's victory to provoke Azeroth's Death and eating the Legion from the inside


    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    From the recent interviews:

    "-Demons and other creatures not native to the Shadowlands can be seen in the Maldraxxus Theater of Pain. These are prisoners of the Necrolords as well as fodder provided by the brokers.
    - Maldraxxus exists to defend the Shadowlands from all threats. Sometimes this takes a more proactive approach, such as with the reveal of Draka on the demonic world in the Maldraxxus Afterlives video."

    So non-Shadowlands exist in the Shadowlands but this seem to be bought from other planes of realties alive. No dead by Kyrians.

    That doesnt contradict my point.

    The demons you see in the theater of Pain are spoils of War brought from Maldraxxus army to their territories, or brought by the brokers. its not event their souls, they are here, souls and body.

    I believe the whole theology on Kyrian's duty and soul they can ferry is explained during the path of ascension either in the covenant campaign or dungeon, don't remember where it was.

  14. #74
    Scarab Lord Kickbuttmario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALAMITY View Post
    What broke the Arbiter was that random blast of red energy that she got hit with.
    Yeah. I saw that and I was like "wow that was a complete coincidence". KEKW

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Yes Argus turns red in Mythic, Blizzard has stated many times that Mythic is non canon for the story anymore which is why they stopped doing fights like Imperator/Archimonde that had mythic phases that actually mattered.
    So, the thing that happened ingame is canon, but-
    Next, the pantheon clearly state they were going to use his spirit to imprison Sargeras.
    -the thing that was cut from the game is canon?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonly View Post
    Hello,

    Lots of people speculating on this. I believe I have found the answer, and it makes a lot of sense too.

    As far as we know:
    - The cycle of death was not broke until after the Emerald Nightmare raid
    - The cycle of death had been broke for some until during the burning of Teldrassil.

    I purpose the following sentiment:
    The cycle of death broke during the raid of the Nighthold. After the killing of Gul'dan.

    Time paradoxes mess with everything, Gul'dan of our reality had already been dead for quite some time. The reasoning for the red spirit could be a hint at the red portal to Draenor, which would explain why the cycle of death broke. Gul'dans spirit was not of our reality and had already been judged once before so the Arbiter could not judge the soul. This fits in with the storyline of when Sylvanas begins to go down a super dark path as the Helya raid and her pact would then come into fruition.

    Also:
    - Gul'dan as far as I am aware was the only soul that came through the Dark Portal (red) that had already previously died in our world once before.

    Please provide counter arguments to this I am curious to hear what other peoples thoughts are on this.
    Could be, but what about Garrosh? He died in the alternate universe, but never in the original.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    And he had dreadlords in the Legion, on the order of Denathrius, who could have started a whole civil and internal war in the Legion right after Legion's victory to provoke Azeroth's Death and eating the Legion from the inside





    That doesnt contradict my point.

    The demons you see in the theater of Pain are spoils of War brought from Maldraxxus army to their territories, or brought by the brokers. its not event their souls, they are here, souls and body.

    I believe the whole theology on Kyrian's duty and soul they can ferry is explained during the path of ascension either in the covenant campaign or dungeon, don't remember where it was.
    Well ok. He had influence in the legion for sure. But again to risk the entirety of your endgame on the Legion loosing and Argus blowing up is risky. The Dreadlords are powerful but not remotely the strongest members of the Legion, had the Eredar noticed their betrayal they would have been slaughtered.

    I mean there doesn't seem to be any indication Kyrian can fetch literally any soul beyond the mortal souls their tasked with getting. Which is the main issue. Since Argus's soul would have gone to the Titan's plane (and based on demon souls the process for non-mortal souls seems to be automatic). If there is any lore stating Kyrains can just yank any soul they want please share it.

    I'm not saying your theory is wrong persay just it seems to require lots of chance and seeming disagreements with recent lore.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    titans dont go to the shadowlands when they die.
    I am going to need a source for this one.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Geotaku21 View Post
    Could be, but what about Garrosh? He died in the alternate universe, but never in the original.
    that was normal universe garrosh. there is no alternate universe garrosh. That timeline in particular was picked by Kairoz in part because garrosh didn't exist in that timeline.

    all timeline versions of people go to shadowlands. it's a hard thing to conceptualize but the fel plane is also like that. The Kiljadeen we killed at HFC was the normal kiljadeen. there was no "alternate" version. On azaroth, it's why the bronze exist, so that the true azaroth timeline stays true. The alternate timelines/universes are in their own hypercube related to their connection to azaroth and is seperate from the other planes of existence. This is what the wow team has tried to convey, but in reality its best explained by Dr. Who. The Tenth Doctor : "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff."

  20. #80
    Hello,

    so I registered on this forum after a long time reading it and this post made me think.

    Well, it could be Gul'dan, yeah, that's for sure. But we couldn't see any soul being able to destroy Arbiter, and Arbiter judged many souls through the time, big and small, old and new. This is her design.

    What could broke her? Well, when I thought about it, that might be not a soul, because she's designed to judge souls and her software is able to process that. What if that was a living - or partly living - creature?

    "Yeah, but how you're going to send living creature through the Purpose" you may ask. And here we go, we know one person who spoiled the process already - Sargeras with his resurrection machine for demons on Argus. Argus was "artificial covenant a'la Ardenweald" for demons and they were reborn in his power/soul. Plainly speaking, of course.

    Then the artificial resurrection machine was broken and demon souls went to Shadowlands. Yes.

    And then, demons came to Shadowlands, to their rightful place after death. And then we have two points for this:

    - On Antorus, we killed many demons and they go to Argus to resurrect,
    - Resurrection process might take some time,
    - Partly-alive partly-dead demons went then into the Shadowlands after we defeated Argus,
    - Or dead demons,
    - Accompanied by Varimathras, first dreadlord who went to Shadowlands, not to Argus - and being partially alive, partially dead (or just dead, but yet aware of the machine), he could be able to hack Arbiter's software, willingly or not, but I assume "willingly".

    And this is what I think - partially resurrected demons went through Arbiter's judgement and Varimathras was able to bluescreen her.
    Last edited by Devvra; 2020-11-25 at 11:03 AM.

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