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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    It's almost as if old-school MMO's are dead, most modern audiences don't like them, and Blizzard is accommodating that as to not have the game die.

    Seriously, the game should not be built around your preconceptions of what the three letters "MMO" mean. Most people don't want that.

    Personally, I find the idea of being a random, nameless adventurer doing menial tasks boring.
    I think the main reason old school MMOs are dead is that WoW sucked up all the players. I don't think the quests pretending you're the only player is the reason for that, I think it's because the game has always had good mechanics. WoW was also a lot easier than the MMOs it competed against, since it got rid of real death penalties. No one would argue easier is better, but we can recognize that it's more appealing to more people, while also being less satisfying.

    You're looking at traditional MMOs the wrong way. You aren't a random nameless adventurer, you are an adventurer with a chance to make a name for yourself in a persistent world, and much of that is social interaction and roleplaying your character. Canned single player quests and stories where every player pretends to be alone in the game world are really a poor substitute. If you never played the older MMOs it's hard to explain

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    You're looking at traditional MMOs the wrong way. You aren't a random nameless adventurer, you are an adventurer with a chance to make a name for yourself in a persistent world, and much of that is social interaction and roleplaying your character. Canned single player quests and stories where every player pretends to be alone in the game world are really a poor substitute. If you never played the older MMOs it's hard to explain

    The problem with this is that WoW has been going for 16 years. The player character has made a name for themselves in that time. In Vanilla/BC we were "adventurers", random nobodies getting stuff done. Wrath/Cata we were grunts, recognized but still there just to do our jobs. MoP we had earned responsibilities and were notable. We served as lieutenants to people like Nazgrim and Admiral Taylor. In WoD, we became their equals. Come Legion we surpassed them, becoming one of the Greats of our classes, up there with names like Tirion, Rexxar, and Valeera. BfA we became a Chosen One, though we were still beholden to the will of our factions.


    It's just a natural progression to keep the story going. If Blizz was gonna keep us as random adventurers they would have had to change direction all the way back in Wrath.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I think the main reason old school MMOs are dead is that WoW sucked up all the players. I don't think the quests pretending you're the only player is the reason for that, I think it's because the game has always had good mechanics. WoW was also a lot easier than the MMOs it competed against, since it got rid of real death penalties. No one would argue easier is better, but we can recognize that it's more appealing to more people, while also being less satisfying.

    You're looking at traditional MMOs the wrong way. You aren't a random nameless adventurer, you are an adventurer with a chance to make a name for yourself in a persistent world, and much of that is social interaction and roleplaying your character. Canned single player quests and stories where every player pretends to be alone in the game world are really a poor substitute. If you never played the older MMOs it's hard to explain
    I keep expecting that the big bad (TM) of the next expansion will be the player.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephrinx View Post
    No.

    There should be - nothing - in this game that is "solo phased."
    This is an MMO, not Elder Scrolls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeanix View Post
    no it's an MMO.
    Using this argument for something like questing, especially when you can certainly invite people to quest with you, is silly and unreasonable. There may be reasons not to solo phase quests--I can think of a couple right off, a sense of being in an actual, breathing world would be at the top of the list--but this "It's an MMO" BS isn't one of them.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I think the main reason old school MMOs are dead is that WoW sucked up all the players. I don't think the quests pretending you're the only player is the reason for that, I think it's because the game has always had good mechanics. WoW was also a lot easier than the MMOs it competed against, since it got rid of real death penalties. No one would argue easier is better, but we can recognize that it's more appealing to more people, while also being less satisfying.

    You're looking at traditional MMOs the wrong way. You aren't a random nameless adventurer, you are an adventurer with a chance to make a name for yourself in a persistent world, and much of that is social interaction and roleplaying your character. Canned single player quests and stories where every player pretends to be alone in the game world are really a poor substitute. If you never played the older MMOs it's hard to explain
    We already *have* made a name for ourselves, the game has moved beyond that. And I'm quite happy with it.

    We don't "pretend to be alone", each character is the main character for their own perspective, with everybody else being their allies. If just that somehow breaks your suspension of disbelief, well...I don't know what to tell ya. Strengthen up your ability to suspend your disbelief I guess.

    Maybe you are the one here that needs to shift your mindset. Stop expecting WoW to be an old-school MMO, and start viewing it as a Single-Player game with lots of multiplayer elements enhancing it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Frankly, debating whether WoW still follows the "MMO-RPG" genre is misguided. Game's shouldn't be locked into a rigid ideal of a genre, that's so limiting.

    At the absolute extreme, if we could agree that WoW isn't much of an MMO anymore, the solution wouldn't be to change the game, but to re-classify it into a different genre. Genres are just categories.

  6. #26
    Depends which bit matters to you, the mmo bit or the rpg bit.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    We already *have* made a name for ourselves, the game has moved beyond that. And I'm quite happy with it.

    We don't "pretend to be alone", each character is the main character for their own perspective, with everybody else being their allies. If just that somehow breaks your suspension of disbelief, well...I don't know what to tell ya. Strengthen up your ability to suspend your disbelief I guess.

    Maybe you are the one here that needs to shift your mindset. Stop expecting WoW to be an old-school MMO, and start viewing it as a Single-Player game with lots of multiplayer elements enhancing it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Frankly, debating whether WoW still follows the "MMO-RPG" genre is misguided. Game's shouldn't be locked into a rigid ideal of a genre, that's so limiting.

    At the absolute extreme, if we could agree that WoW isn't much of an MMO anymore, the solution wouldn't be to change the game, but to re-classify it into a different genre. Genres are just categories.
    I think you missed the point. In older MMOs the game wasn't structured around pretending you're special. By actually playing the game, you, the player, made a name for character. MMOs used to be about social interaction and building relationships and working together.

    A quest system on rails isn't a substitute for character building. If you have any friends who play D&D and other tabletop games whether they prefer making their own characters up, or if they would prefer a canned "hero of the world, but everyone else is also hero of the world, single player storyline"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I think you missed the point. In older MMOs the game wasn't structured around pretending you're special. By actually playing the game, you, the player, made a name for character. MMOs used to be about social interaction and building relationships and working together.

    A quest system on rails isn't a substitute for character building. If you have any friends who play D&D and other tabletop games whether they prefer making their own characters up, or if they would prefer a canned "hero of the world, but everyone else is also hero of the world, single player storyline"
    What MMO's "used to be like" is irrelevant. That's not what WoW is now. WoW doesn't have to be like that just because that's what MMO's "used to be like".

    Ultimately, I don't like old-school MMO style. I don't want what you described. I would rather dig ditches than play an old-school MMO again. I prefer playing through the story and the hero / main character. I wanna experiencing epic / cool stuff, fighting big baddies, and experiencing the lore / story of Warcraft.

    In my opinion, people with my tastes (in this regard) are the majority, and people with yours are a dwindling minority. That's probably why Blizzard is writing the story like a modern game.

    Lastly, WoW no more "pretends you're special" than any single-player game does. Sure there are other players, but there are other players in single-player games, you just don't see them.

  9. #29
    There should be no phases, and story should take a backseat. It's an MMO, the story should be what the players make.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    What MMO's "used to be like" is irrelevant. That's not what WoW is now. WoW doesn't have to be like that just because that's what MMO's "used to be like".
    What WoW is now is irrelevant, that's not what MMOs used to be. WoW doesn't have to be what it is now, it can be what it used to be.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by nizara View Post
    There should be no phases, and story should take a backseat. It's an MMO, the story should be what the players make.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What WoW is now is irrelevant, that's not what MMOs used to be. WoW doesn't have to be what it is now, it can be what it used to be.
    WoW is still one of if not the most popular MMO's to date (and it's main competitor isn't like what WoW used to be like either, so...there's that), it *would* become irrelevant if it acted like an old-school MMO, because old-school MMO's are basically dead, modern audiences don't like them. I don't like them either.

    Bear in mind, it's most recent peak was Legion, which was the least old-school expansion they've ever done. Because old-school *is* old, and dying. I'm sorry for you if that's the kind of thing you like, but it does mean better stuff for me.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by sephrinx View Post
    No.

    There should be - nothing - in this game that is "solo phased."
    This is an MMO, not Elder Scrolls.
    MMO doesn'[t mean what you think it means. It only means a ton of people online in the same place. Nothing more. it does not mean it must only be group content.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    They don't need to be solo phased; they just need to have quests/mobs yield the same amount of XP and quest items as they do now, and the divided by party size.

    So mobs that give 400xp, each gets 100 if 4 in group.
    Quests that give 8k XP, gives 2k for each Pers n in a 4 man group.
    And mobs that drop 1 quest item per kill, have 25% chance of dropping 1 in a 4 man group.

    This way, it will be stream lined..
    So what you are suggesting is further encourage people to solo rather than group together because you want to introduce penalties for grouping.

    There really is no need to reduce XP because the mobs can be solo anyway. Yes, it would be faster, but I doubt the speed increase would be that significant. And only drop 1 quest item in a group? That would mean the others would need to repeat that quest in the hope they get the drop.

  13. #33
    Specifically, I dislike two things - one, it is some other player always fucking up the cutscenes by standing on the npc's and just jumping around like crazy. It really breaks the immersion. Second - now that npc's are often shouting something when attacked or at different levels of health arriving at engaged important mob to kill you miss out some RP. I have started to wait for respawns due to that to start "fresh".
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
    I think you missed the point. In older MMOs the game wasn't structured around pretending you're special. By actually playing the game, you, the player, made a name for character. MMOs used to be about social interaction and building relationships and working together.
    It still is in the guild environment. Exactly the same game as it used to be if you never really played outside the guild. I guess social aspect is different if you were guild swapping, pugging or talking shit all the time in trade chat.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    So what you are suggesting is further encourage people to solo rather than group together because you want to introduce penalties for grouping.

    There really is no need to reduce XP because the mobs can be solo anyway. Yes, it would be faster, but I doubt the speed increase would be that significant. And only drop 1 quest item in a group? That would mean the others would need to repeat that quest in the hope they get the drop.
    Not at all.. I just discourage more benefits from grouping, than there already are.
    And since groups benefit from speed, they shouldn't have extra XP on top.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  16. #36
    No one said you had to group up to do it.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    So mobs that give 400xp, each gets 100 if 4 in group.
    Quests that give 8k XP, gives 2k for each Pers n in a 4 man group.
    And mobs that drop 1 quest item per kill, have 25% chance of dropping 1 in a 4 man group.

    This way, it will be stream lined..
    This is the worst idea ever. Your way would discourage people grouping up and playing together.

    On launch I like to level with a few of my roomates so because of this you propose that we get 1/3 of the experience. This is a pretty good way to make it so you run out of quests and are forced into either dungeon leveling or mob grinding.

    Heck it was bad enough that there weren't enough campaign quests to level with the way it is without having to do other quests/activities. Your way would make it even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Not at all.. I just discourage more benefits from grouping, than there already are.
    And since groups benefit from speed, they shouldn't have extra XP on top.
    You aren't getting extra XP on top of it. You are getting the same XP all around. Also, leveling slower is a lot faster than leveling in a group. In groups you have people taking breaks, you have them taking their time doing this and that. Solo you don't have to worry about any of it.

    Your way is definitely discouraging people from playing together all around.

  18. #38
    Thieves guild stuff in ESO not being phased is a great example of why phasing is great and necessary for some things. It just totally trashes any concept of immersion.


    Honestly SWTOR basically did this right ~9 years ago with solo phases for story missions. The rest of the world can be the "lobby"

  19. #39
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    I'm almost always grouped with my husband so if all quests were phased for solo play, I'd probably quit.

  20. #40
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    With how broken Minions of Mueh'zala is, yes.
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