Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Thumbs down US Navy ship sails into Russian Bay Petr the great, challenges Rus territory.

    This isn't China building some islands in the middle of the sea way off mainland China, this is a small bay between two points of the Russian territory, you have to be blind to think this territory is not within Russian border. Ofc the ship is named after McCain.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/507713-us-...n-vladivostok/
    https://www.voanews.com/usa/us-makes...eter-great-bay

    'John McCain' warship drama: US Navy defends vessel entering Russian waters by blasting Moscow’s ‘EXCESSIVE maritime claims'

    24 Nov, 2020 21:38

    The US Navy has called Russia’s claims of maritime territory “excessive” and described an alleged incursion by one of its ships, the USS 'John S. McCain', into Russian waters as a routine “Freedom of Navigation Operation.”

    Russia's Ministry of Defense stated on Tuesday that the American vessel sailed more than two kilometers into its zone of control, off the coast of the Russian Far Eastern capital, Vladivostok, that morning. According to Moscow, the USS 'McCain' was warned away by the Udaloy-class destroyer 'Admiral Vinogradov', whose crew warned the US warship away, threatening to ram it by force if necessary.

    “The Russian Federation's statement about this mission is false,” the US Navy later declared, adding that the ship’s mission took place in international waters and “in accordance with international law.”

    In a tweet, the Navy said that the mission “upheld the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea,” and challenged “Russia's excessive maritime claims.”

    The US insists that Peter the Great Bay, where the USS 'McCain' was sailing, was improperly claimed by the USSR in 1984. Ever since, Moscow has stuck by the Soviet demarcation of the waters, which was determined by drawing a straight line between its adjacent coasts.

    Tuesday’s encounter was not the first time that the USS 'John McCain' has been involved in high-risk incidents at sea. In 2017, 10 American sailors died after the vessel collided with a Liberian-flagged tanker, resulting in flooding and putting the warship out of action until October 2019. An investigation into that incident warned of an overly complex touchscreen system used to control the ship’s throttle, and a lack of training of its crew.

    Nor is it the first time that the US has taken flak for holding such Freedom of Navigation Operations in disputed waters. American vessels regularly sail through the South China Sea to challenge Beijing’s expanding claims in the resource-rich waterway, and the Chinese military accused Washington of “provocative actions” when the USS 'McCain' sailed past the Chinese-claimed Paracel Islands there last month.

    If you want to see excessive, look at these Asian countries, none of them knows the meaning of international waters..besides China, look at Vietnam's claims..they are behaving as if that sea is each ones own private pool.

    Last edited by Ihavewaffles; 2020-11-25 at 08:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Another pointless conflict... Why is Russia claiming such a vast amount of open water, and why does a US Navy ship feel the need to even sail there? Vladivostok is a major russian naval base, isn't it?

    I mean, just because you're in your legal right to do something doesn't mean you have the need to do so just to piss someone off... Douchbag move to counter a douchbag move. An escalation of douchebaggery.

  3. #3
    It's not off the coast, it's between two points of Russian territory, so it makes it Russian waters, not international.

    Yeah, Vladivostok is naval base for the pacific fleet.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Fleet_(Russia)

    This is like a Russian ship would sail right into pearl harbor while claiming international waters..

  4. #4
    As far as I've gathered, the waters are 'disputed'. Russia claims the entire bay, which is several thousand square kilometers, which again is outside the confines of international treaties and the regular claim to open sea, which would extend 12 miles from the coast. While this isn't unusual, and Russia isn't the only nation to do that, it is against the UN convention of 82, which precedes the Soviet Unions claim on the bay from 84, which Russia upholds.

    That being said, I see no reason why the US feels the need to excercise this 'freedom of navigation'. If they didn't come within 12 nautical miles of the coast, though, they are in the right here. All ships have freedom of movement 12 miles outside of a countries coast.

    So no, this isn't like 'sailing into Peral harbour'. But I've just realized whom I've been talking to, so why am I expecting a coherent argument and anything but bullshit...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    As far as I've gathered, the waters are 'disputed'. Russia claims the entire bay, which is several thousand square kilometers, which again is outside the confines of international treaties and the regular claim to open sea, which would extend 12 miles from the coast. While this isn't unusual, and Russia isn't the only nation to do that, it is against the UN convention of 82, which precedes the Soviet Unions claim on the bay from 84, which Russia upholds.

    That being said, I see no reason why the US feels the need to excercise this 'freedom of navigation'. If they didn't come within 12 nautical miles of the coast, though, they are in the right here. All ships have freedom of movement 12 miles outside of a countries coast.

    So no, this isn't like 'sailing into Peral harbour'. But I've just realized whom I've been talking to, so why am I expecting a coherent argument and anything but bullshit...
    Sailing a navy ship, in contrast to a commercial ship, near another country's strategic location such as Vladivostok's nearby bay can only be seen negatively, where is the bs in that? Considering distances, missile speeds, react times, so yes it isn't ok for US navy to go anywhere near that location, it is off limits for self preservation dictates to keep other countries a good distance away.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    Sailing a navy ship, in contrast to a commercial ship, near another country's strategic location such as Vladivostok's nearby bay can only be seen negatively, where is the bs in that? Considering distances, missile speeds, react times, so yes it isn't ok for US navy to go anywhere near that location, it is off limits for self preservation dictates to keep other countries a good distance away.
    Is there a treaty you could cite me that prohibits warships from approaching enemy bases? And no, common sense is not a treaty.

  7. #7
    A little off topic, but I always forget how damned big Russia is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  8. #8
    1. This is needless inflammation by the US no matter who is 'in the right'
    2. Without any actual distance from the shore being claimed (which I'm sure is intentional) we don't really know if the US boat breached the law of the sea convention, although I would wager they were stopped well before getting to what the rest of the world considers non-international waters

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    If you want to see excessive, look at these Asian countries, none of them knows the meaning of international waters..besides China, look at Vietnam's claims..they are behaving as if that sea is each ones own private pool.
    I hope that's a joke, the nine-dash line map is a total meme.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    It's not off the coast, it's between two points of Russian territory, so it makes it Russian waters, not international.

    Yeah, Vladivostok is naval base for the pacific fleet.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Fleet_(Russia)

    This is like a Russian ship would sail right into pearl harbor while claiming international waters..
    Does that mean the United States gets to claim all water between Attu Island and Midway Island, as well as connected to San Diego? Great!!!

    Heck, if we're going by territories as well, the United States could actually extent that line from Alaska to Guam and the Northern Mariana's Islands.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-11-25 at 10:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.

  10. #10
    There is a lot of he said she said regarding this.
    Russian websites are full of crap and I can image that certain American ones too with the posts like Skroe did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  11. #11
    So looking at map they mark the whole bay as internal waters. The line sterches about 200km there. Having inside or what they have as internal waters marked as their zone wouldn't be a problem but Russia are kinda stretching it here.


    Japan and China also seem to be doing this quite a bit where internal waters are kinda sketchy. https://www.marineregions.org/eezmapper.php is the wesbite where you can check it.

    Also ships going about near others areas is not much different with what Russia does with it's constant fighter incursions. They are basically just testing the response.

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    22,846
    Quote Originally Posted by Ihavewaffles View Post
    This isn't China building some islands in the middle of the sea way off mainland China, this is a small bay between two points of the Russian territory, you have to be blind to think this territory is not within Russian border. Ofc the ship is named after McCain.



    If you want to see excessive, look at these Asian countries, none of them knows the meaning of international waters..besides China, look at Vietnam's claims..they are behaving as if that sea is each ones own private pool.

    [...]
    haven't you heard? America claims sovereignty over the entire planet and all nations are just its provinces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that BGM hits!.

  13. #13
    Brewmaster Yadryonych's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Матушка Россия
    Posts
    1,341
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    haven't you heard? America claims sovereignty over the entire planet and all nations are just its provinces.
    Yeah, not like America is being a tool of globalist oligarchy and the american people is not benefitting from it in the slightest.
    Lives matter

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    1. This is needless inflammation by the US no matter who is 'in the right'
    2. Without any actual distance from the shore being claimed (which I'm sure is intentional) we don't really know if the US boat breached the law of the sea convention, although I would wager they were stopped well before getting to what the rest of the world considers non-international waters


    I hope that's a joke, the nine-dash line map is a total meme.
    And yet Russia does the same kind of shit all the time. They often fly bombers towards the UK to "test readniness" etc.

    It's kind of standard practice and if we're going to call it out, lets call it out on all sides.

  15. #15
    As someone who's native Country has its Airspace routinely violated by Russia. Let me just say this.

    Take a dose of your own medicine. If you do this to others. You lose the right to complain about it when it is done to you.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    And yet Russia does the same kind of shit all the time. They often fly bombers towards the UK to "test readniness" etc.

    It's kind of standard practice and if we're going to call it out, lets call it out on all sides.
    That sounds like terrible needless inflammation on russia's behalf and were that thread about that I would have said as much. However since (unless my grasp on geography has failed me), the UK is not located in or around Vladivostok I'm not sure it's super relevant to the region and thus the thread.

    A more pertinent criticism would be that the modern nation-state of Russia is still using the USSR's delineation of the borders despite being a signatory to the UN convention of the law of the sea. However, I suppose that wouldn't be super relevant seeing as how the US decided to chuck a tantrum a go home rather than do the same.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-11-26 at 07:01 PM.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  17. #17
    Not really new. Russia and China are pushing the laws around naval claims extending them further and further out, for fishing claims and natural drilling rights. It's the same issue between Turkey and Greece right now as well. Btw using the flawed logic of "2 points between Russian territory" you could say the same in the US between the Keys in Florida and the southern most part of Texas and claim almost all of the Gulf of Mexico is a "bay" and US territory. Drawing 2 imaginary points between land and claiming everything in-between is not how sea rights work at all, regardless of what RT might tell you. Neither does "historic" claims like China is doing in the South China Sea illegally. The US could easily also make the same "historic" claims in the Gulf of Mexico too going back to it's use and US ships lost from the 1700's or earlier on.

    Since Russia tried using the 2 points logic instead of the borders by International law, the USS McCain did a successful Freedom of Navigation exercise proving the US disputes those claims, just like the US does against the illegal claims by China in the south.

    I promise that if the US did this (and they probably should start, since so many other countries like Russia, China, Turkey already actively are), and grabbed huge swaths of sea territory around Alaska extending far out past the current EEC, using whatever imaginary line drawing between land points or "historic" creative logic they decide to use to justify breaking International law...China and Russia would do exactly the same Freedom of Navigation exercises to dispute them. In fact my guess is that this is going to continue until the US does start making it's own excessive sea claims and Chinese and Russian ships start getting the same treatment in International waters for "challenging US territory" to borrow the phrase.

  18. #18
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    8,387
    This HAD to be a stunt by the USA, and a rather funny one at that.

    You don't just accidentally sail into a Russian bay that's been there since your flag had 33 stars on it xD
    Last edited by caervek; 2020-11-26 at 10:02 PM.

  19. #19
    Legendary! Saninicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Iron city of Dis
    Posts
    6,127
    This is ironic since Russia always does this with the TU-95 near alaska.
    My biggest regrets is not speed running getting banned from club penguin and yandere devs discord

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    That sounds like terrible needless inflammation on russia's behalf and were that thread about that I would have said as much. However since (unless my grasp on geography has failed me), the UK is not located in or around Vladivostok I'm not sure it's super relevant to the region and thus the thread.

    A more pertinent criticism would be that the modern nation-state of Russia is still using the USSR's delineation of the borders despite being a signatory to the UN convention of the law of the sea. However, I suppose that wouldn't be super relevant seeing as how the US decided to chuck a tantrum a go home rather than do the same.
    Oh, so pointless inflammation is only pertinent when its near Vladivostok....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •