For my fellow Sylvanas Windrunner fans (and the haters too)....

[Mapdap]

I liked her fine in the early days as the leader of the Forsaken, with somewhat tenuous ties to the rest of the Horde. It's not the kind of character that appeals to me personally, but it's a fine character for that role.

It just gets a little old having xpac after xpac revolve around her, and making every other character's choices and actions a response (or lack of response) to hers.

Some players are clearly very drawn to her, other players like myself find her to be extremely boring and totally uninteresting. It's just a different flavor of Mary Sue (see: Jerk Sue, Villain Sue) that's aimed at a couple specific subsets. And that's fine to have.

I think the thing that makes her even more boring and annoying than a character like Anduin is the portion of the fanbase who stans her so hard with their own headcannon ("she did nothing wrong", "she's trying to save us all" etc), and insists that she's some fascinating, amazing character. But I think we should keep in mind that what's titillating for one player may be totally unappealing to another, and vice versa.

One of the potential strengths of an enterprise like WoW is that there's room for a variety of different types of characters with different temperaments and motivations, that can appeal to different types of players. I think it's unfortunate that the writers aren't really able to develop more of them simultaneously, in a more textured way. It always seems like there are too many cop-outs and missed opportunities, while they focus in on one character and suck all the fun out of them. It seems we're always left wondering "but what about ___? They're clearly involved in this, why didn't they do anything?"

Bingo! This ---->⬇⬇

I think the thing that makes her even more boring and annoying than a character like Anduin is the portion of the fanbase who stans her so hard with their own headcannon ("she did nothing wrong", "she's trying to save us all" etc), and insists that she's some fascinating, amazing character. But I think we should keep in mind that what's titillating for one player may be totally unappealing to another, and vice versa.

As for the latter portion of your post... I personally blame Activison-Blizzard, with more blame towards Activision. Remember how long and well developed expansion packs were prior to Activision buying out Blizzard? I do. Wrath of the Lich King had an amazing story arch and great writing. Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria did as well, IMHO. I am not trying to point fingers here but I do believe that the one expansion pack per year model was adopted after the merger.

What are your thoughts on the above? Responses welcome. Great reply 33kamous3.

[Bwonsamdi the Dead]

She was fine (imo) until about.... Legion I guess?

[october breeze]

So, you call anyone questioning Sylvy an ass***??!?

I think the irony of self-urging necessity to explain one's fanaticism with an emo meme character and calling anyone else a-word is great with this one!
No need to explain love. No need.

[Todd K Lai]

It is interesting

[Houle]

You'll find that most people aren't able to discern the difference between the two.
A number of people on this very forum even role play as certain characters in their forum posts... somehow.

nooooooo, who could you possibly mean by that, i wonder
i think its time to die for all 3 windrunner sisters in the next 3 addons (SL included)

[TrueHorde]

I assume you're referring to Sylvanas... haha. Let's wait for the first content patch to just say that she is "...ruined..." because IMO, that is a bit of a rush to judgement.


Peace-

To be honest, Anduin is the worst written character since 1994.He is the cancer of WoWstory,and occupies a lot of story resources. EVERY character will eventually serve this boring Mary Sue.

[Vakir]

The character is a yawning maw of baffling contradictions in motivation. We didn't even get a concrete idea of what their purpose was until a cutscene we can't even access in-game yet for what's likely a couple of weeks and even that purpose is poorly exposited and its logic punched through by a sheltered teenager. Her presentation in-game and in prior cutscenes also directly contradict this same motivation with her actions being defined largely by split-second decisions and emotionally driven impulsivity, but then later telling us it was planned.

If you need a character to say "No more bullshit, here's a 4 minute monologue" effectively three games into their master plan, you probably have failed to make their ethos and goals coherent in the first place.

There are plenty of mean or outright despicable characters that are still beloved. Azshara was probably the best thing about BFA besides perhaps Bwonsamdi and was well-received but her actions are presented as downright sadistic and petty. The extent of her crimes are just as broad and arguably more selfish. People still like them. Hell, the most iconic and popular character in the damn franchise, Arthas, is about as far into evil alignment as anything and any retcon that back creates more controversy, not less.

If you're overly focused on the reception of the character, need to share Tumblr memes to make an argument for why they're not terrible, and can't understand why the reception is poor in the first place, maybe you're the one who is struggling to look at them beyond the lens of your fandom.

[Broken Fox]

Am i the only one who sees the irony in people hanging around and whining about characters who hang around and whine?

Perhaps they made some of these characters a bit too relatable for many forum posters.

i'm not hanging around and whining, i'm just stating an opinion. doofus.

[Mapdap]

The character is a yawning maw of baffling contradictions in motivation. We didn't even get a concrete idea of what their purpose was until a cutscene we can't even access in-game yet for what's likely a couple of weeks and even that purpose is poorly exposited and its logic punched through by a sheltered teenager. Her presentation in-game and in prior cutscenes also directly contradict this same motivation with her actions being defined largely by split-second decisions and emotionally driven impulsivity, but then later telling us it was planned.

If you need a character to say "No more bullshit, here's a 4 minute monologue" effectively three games into their master plan, you probably have failed to make their ethos and goals coherent in the first place.

There are plenty of mean or outright despicable characters that are still beloved. Azshara was probably the best thing about BFA besides perhaps Bwonsamdi and was well-received but her actions are presented as downright sadistic and petty. The extent of her crimes are just as broad and arguably more selfish. People still like them. Hell, the most iconic and popular character in the damn franchise, Arthas, is about as far into evil alignment as anything and any retcon that back creates more controversy, not less.

If you're overly focused on the reception of the character, need to share Tumblr memes to make an argument for why they're not terrible, and can't understand why the reception is poor in the first place, maybe you're the one who is struggling to look at them beyond the lens of your fandom.

Tell 'em!!! I am so on board with this, especially the last part...

If you're overly focused on the reception of the character, need to share Tumblr memes to make an argument for why they're not terrible, and can't understand why the reception is poor in the first place, maybe you're the one who is struggling to look at them beyond the lens of your fandom.

There's so much retcon that is going to go on with good 'ole Slyvanas, we all know this much. Heck it has already been done. I personally am interested in Anduin and whether or not *** spoiler alert***

will he accept her final offer?

There are so many directions in which this can go and I personally am very excited to see. What about you all?! (¬‿¬)(¬‿¬)


✌☮

[Mapdap]

To be honest, Anduin is the worst written character since 1994.He is the cancer of WoWstory,and occupies a lot of story resources. EVERY character will eventually serve this boring Mary Sue.

Hahahaha, I personally think his writing is decent. I think Greymane's is awful though. Just bad, lol. "Mary Sue" ... hahahaha! Nice one xD

[SirCowdog]

In order for her character to be complete with how it has been played out, she needs to die in a way that suits the choices she has made in some kind of twist..

In the Silverpine quest area, there's a scene where Garrosh tells her "We all face our makers. Some sooner than others" or something like that.

What I find VERY interesting is that Garrosh is in Shadowlands. And you know who else is there, who could be considered Sylvanas' maker? Arthas. And through him, the Maw/Jailor.

I haven't even finished leveling yet. So maybe this has already been answered. But I think there's some potential twists there.

[Winter Blossom]

I like Slyvanas, and I kinda get where she’s coming from (not being free or having control, and wanting to break that wheel), she’s just going about it all wrong... like, really wrong.

[sam86]

but she isn't
they ruined her with how they tried to sh8tcon how she was, it maybe bad to make her 'now' evil, but at least it would make sense instead of make it like she is planning that since end of wrath, while we have a LOT of focus on her and even stories where she talks her mind and from her pov, yet she was - back then - total oblivious about the jailer and that she is supposed to be evil and not care about horde at all
they f8cked it horribly, they shouldn't done that, and ppl here detailed it better than me

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To be honest, Anduin is the worst written character since 1994.He is the cancer of WoWstory,and occupies a lot of story resources. EVERY character will eventually serve this boring Mary Sue.

because he is idiotic peace lover doesn't make him a bad character
if u remove anduin, we back to varian style of kill all orcs, and i find that even more stupid in a world full of old gods (who may or may not be dead?), demons (who also may or may not be dead -.-), corrupted titans (who may or may not break from jail) and now the afterlife world (who probably won't have any effect on us while living)
tbh wow now is more uncertain than before, we used to know who is enemy, now they conjure enemies out of their farts, void lords and turn the mighty ruthless sargeras to loli-rapist wannabe may hurt wow lore a lot (don't get me wrong, i loved legion exp a lot, but sargeras desire to 'penetrate' azeroth and even lust for it is disturbing)

[Mendzia]

... but she is horrible character too?

[LilSaihah]

I liked Sylvanas at the start of BFA. What she was doing made perfect sense from a 'cold calculus of war' perspective.

Now... Ehhh. She's the least interesting part of Shadowlands.

Sylvanas seems to be best when she has lots of characters around her to contrast with. The interactions between her and Saurfang, Garrosh, Lor'themar and Varimathras gave her texture. Anduin is not a good foil for her because they are so fundamentally dissimilar; she could say the sky's blue and Anduin'd say "no! youre wrong".

[gaymer77]

sylvanas is by far the worst writen character among the main cast

You can say that the writing for Genn, Anduin, Jaina, Baine, whoever's leading the Darkspear trolls (pointing to the irony of how I can't even remember who it is here), Lor'themar, or Mekkatorque are all better than the writing for HER? Anduin is one of the most boring and passive characters I've seen in the game and I've been playing since vanilla. Hell I think Magni had better writing and was more interesting when he was turned into a diamond sitting in Ironforge than Anduin has ever been.

So, you call anyone questioning Sylvy an ass***??!?

I'm not. I'm simply saying how the meme I saw describes perfectly how one can like a how one can enjoy how a character is written but still acknowledge that the character is not a "good guy" and does "not good things".

I like Slyvanas, and I kinda get where she’s coming from (not being free or having control, and wanting to break that wheel), she’s just going about it all wrong... like, really wrong.

After seeing the latest cutscene I have a suspicion that there's a lot more going on than we can even imagine and it is for the good not the bad. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Anduin's days are numbered given what she says to him in regards to the Wynn family heritage.

[therealbowser]

How so? First she cared for other undead, then she didn't.

She never cared about other undead. She has always been a selfish character in that regard.

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Sylvanas is not a great character though.

I can't speak for others but I am speaking relatively. Like, for WoW. WoW has poor writing in general and Sylvanas isn't an exception to this rule. But of WoW's characters, she is one of the more consistent ones at least.

[Quaade]

This is Gul Dukat of DS9, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gwj...el=MediaZealot, he was a great character because the writers and the cast acknowledged his general incompetence. That juxtaposition between his subjective reality and the objective reality made him a memorable and great character.

Sylvanas is Gul Dukat, except the people around her and the writers are too busy fellating her despite everything in the game showing her as top-tier incompetent. She was fooled four times, the second time fatally and she's learned nothing from the first time. Nothing of that says "great character" or "smart character" for that matter. She practically delivered herself gift-wrapped to Arthas. He swung the blade and she literally put herself underneath it due to her massive ego that made her go herself so she could get the glory instead of sending people to do it. If the general is lost the battle is lost, if a unit is lost you you can recover even though their absence can be felt.

She's no great character. She would be if everyone acknowledged her massive narcissism and incompetence and she was just an unreliable narrator, instead, Blizzard is effectively enabling her by giving her massive plot armour and generally making her a karma houdini.

[Askyl]

This is what I tried to explain to people, when I said I loved Ramsey in GoT. Amazing character. They all thought I was a dickhead and whatever..

[Diaphin]

There is a difference between admiring the character and obsessing over the character.

I've always liked Sylvanas, primarily because she's stayed true to her character throughout the story (look at Garrosh for the literal polar opposite of this, Jaina and Varian are also good examples of characters changing a bit too much though Varian at least ended up in a good place, and Jaina did too in the end).

Because I like Sylvanas and her character, however, I feel like the ideas of trying to "save" her or "redeem" her would totally and completely ruin her character.

In order for her character to be complete with how it has been played out, she needs to die in a way that suits the choices she has made in some kind of twist. So we'll see.

PS: Was this thread really necessary? No one cares if you like Sylvanas or not. No one cares if I like Sylvanas or not. We have had a million topics about this throughout BFA, it's time to move on. I highly doubt anyone cares anymore whether Sylvanas is "morally grey" or not.

I don't know. A good redemption arc actually could be an interesting addition to Sylvanas personal journey as a character. She always stuck me as a character who is torn between the possibility of actually caring for her subjects and allies and her persona as the cold, unsympathetic Banshee Queen. If you ask me, she seems absolutely like a character who suppresses her emotions behind an always smug, cold facade. There were a few moments when the facade was shaking. Her feelings towards the Forsaken, her relationship with her sisters as well as her reaction of becoming Warchief. I feel like it is left ambigious whether or not she cares or not and possibly something she as a character right now couldn't tell honestly either. A redemption arc probably could be a step in admitting to have cared for the Forsaken and the Horde.