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  1. #21
    Lol what are you talking about, Kerrigan never wanted to tear down the entire cosmos because she was salty her life went wrong...

  2. #22
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Lol what are you talking about, Kerrigan never wanted to tear down the entire cosmos because she was salty her life went wrong...
    Except that’s exactly what she did when she went back to the Zerg.

    And then went on to destroy the Xel’Naga over.

    A lot more died because of her than Sylvannas burning down a tree.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Uhh but that's pretty much what they are. No lie there.
    Not even close. Relinquishing your memories in Bastion isn't forced, and you're free to leave if you can't stomach it. Ardenweald is a place of healing, not incarceration. They're sleeping because they are injured, and it's explicitly for the purpose of revival. Revendreth is closer to the description given for Ardenweald. Maldraxxus is a training ground and also in the middle of a civil war. The behaviour makes sense from that perspective.

    None of this is particularly hard to find, either... you get told that during the levelup campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    To be fair, Kerrigan was a huge asshole, and she could only be redeemed because it turned out Amon was in control of her actions (then she got freed thanks to the artifact and Jim's intervention on Char). I would say Sylvanas is what would have happened if Kerrigan was not a slave to Amon, but a collaborator. So the comparison between Sylvanas and Kerrigan isn't too far fetched, but Sylvanas is past redemption now, while Kerrigan grabbed redemption through the very last plausible, non-evil explaination for what she did.
    Sure, but that would be a significantly different story than the one we get.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Except that’s exactly what she did when she went back to the Zerg.

    And then went on to destroy the Xel’Naga over.

    A lot more died because of her than Sylvannas burning down a tree.
    Already from the first line of this post, I have some serious doubts you even played SC2.

    She literally fulfilled the prophecy of the xel'naga, merged with the good xel'naga Ouros, and saved the cosmos from the evil xel'naga Amon.

    Kerrigan SAVED the cosmos. Sylvanas wants to DESTROY it.

    A lot more died because of her than Sylvannas burning down a tree.
    Source, please. Sylvanas destroyed an entire magical kingdom that was full of civilians. Kerrigan, once she regained her freedom, only went after military targets. Then when she decides to attack the Terran capital world, she decides to delay the final push so that all civilians can be evacuated. Sylvanas has way more civilian blood on her hands than Kerrigan.

  5. #25
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Already from the first line of this post, I have some serious doubts you even played SC2.

    She literally fulfilled the prophecy of the xel'naga, merged with the good xel'naga Ouros, and saved the cosmos from the evil xel'naga Amon.

    Kerrigan SAVED the cosmos. Sylvanas wants to DESTROY it.



    Source, please. Sylvanas destroyed an entire magical kingdom that was full of civilians. Kerrigan, once she regained her freedom, only went after military targets. Then when she decides to attack the Terran capital world, she decides to delay the final push so that all civilians can be evacuated. Sylvanas has way more civilian blood on her hands than Kerrigan.
    Kerrigan accepts she has the blood of billions (or was it trillions?) of lives on her hands, strange that you cannot. Because she was played by the Xel'Naga? That's exactly what Sylvannas is complaining about, that she's being played by as yet unspecified cosmic beings, and she wants to end their puppeteering.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Kerrigan accepts she has the blood of billions of lives on her hands, strange that you cannot. Because she was played by the Xel'Naga? That's exactly what Sylvannas is complaining about, that she's being played by as yet unspecified cosmic beings, and she wants to end their puppeteering.
    1) What Kerrigan feels like doesn't matter. Characters are not omniscient, and their word doesn't have to be fact. She was literally being influenced by outside forces. Amon and the Zerg mutagen were influencing her negatively. In the final mission of the Terran campaign, the "good" Kerrigan literally speaks to Raynor, and everyone can hear her. Very clearly, she was not herself as the Queen of Blades. It's almost like that's the point.

    2) Sylvanas 100% has her free will. She knows very well what she's doing. She isn't being influenced by any outside force.

    3) Kerrigan never complained that she was played by the Xel'naga. She literally didn't give a shit. After her de-infestation, she was mainly focused with getting revenge on Arcturus Mengsk and finding a way to stop the rogue xel'naga Amon from destroying the cosmos.

    4) Sylvanas isn't complaining that mortals are "played" by cosmic deities, she is complaining that she herself did not go to a nice afterlife. Her veil is so obvious, and the writing makes it so obvious, that it's hilarious some people can't grasp the obvious hypocrisy of this character. If she had gone to a nice afterlife, she 100% wouldn't be doing all this. It's all personal, nothing more.

    5) She doesn't just want to "end their puppeteering", she literally wants to tear everything down. She wants to destroy the cosmos, while Kerrigan wanted to preserve the cosmos laid out by the gods.

    Sylvanas is Amon. But then again, it's clear you haven't played SC2, so I'm not sure you'll catch this comparison.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #27
    The whole Shadowlands lore seems kinda ridiculous. I mean - the bigger picture. The each place separated is nice as some totally individual thing, but together? It's weird.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    I'm willing to give the SL as a design, a pass despite the questions it raises as in the end it's still just a fantasy game and you can't really flesh out an infinite afterlife with every question you have.

  9. #29
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    1) What Kerrigan feels like doesn't matter. Characters are not omniscient, and their word doesn't have to be fact. She was literally being influenced by outside forces. Amon and the Zerg mutagen were influencing her negatively. In the final mission of the Terran campaign, the "good" Kerrigan literally speaks to Raynor, and everyone can hear her. Very clearly, she was not herself as the Queen of Blades. It's almost like that's the point.

    2) Sylvanas 100% has her free will. She knows very well what she's doing. She isn't being influenced by any outside force.

    3) Kerrigan never complained that she was played by the Xel'naga. She literally didn't give a shit. After her de-infestation, she was mainly focused with getting revenge on Arcturus Mengsk and finding a way to stop the rogue xel'naga Amon from destroying the cosmos.

    4) Sylvanas isn't complaining that mortals are "played" by cosmic deities, she is complaining that she herself did not go to a nice afterlife. Her veil is so obvious, and the writing makes it so obvious, that it's hilarious some people can't grasp the obvious hypocrisy of this character. If she had gone to a nice afterlife, she 100% wouldn't be doing all this. It's all personal, nothing more.

    5) She doesn't just want to "end their puppeteering", she literally wants to tear everything down. She wants to destroy the cosmos, while Kerrigan wanted to preserve the cosmos laid out by the gods.

    Sylvanas is Amon. But then again, it's clear you haven't played SC2, so I'm not sure you'll catch this comparison.
    Kerrigan was as much manipulated by Mengsk into her various genocides as she was driven by the Xel’Naga.

    You really don’t think having been touched by Frostmourne, her manipulation by Valkyr and whoever else isn’t going to turn out to be just what drove Sylvannas‘s worst excesses?

    Regardless of anything, in the books, Sylvannas is actually always shown to put her people, the Forsaken first so she’s not entirely devoid of compassion. Whether she lives or dies, she will succeed in securing a future for the Forsaken. It’s probably to tie off that plot line with the Valkyr where she actually saw what’s coming for her, and them.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2020-11-26 at 05:00 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Kerrigan was as much manipulated by Mengsk into her various genocides as she was driven by the Xel’Naga.

    You really don’t think having been touched by Frostmourne, her manipulation by Valkyr and whoever else isn’t going to turn out to be just what drove Sylvannas‘s worst excesses?

    Regardless of anything, in the books, Sylvannas is actually always shown to put her people, the Forsaken first so she’s not entirely devoid of compassion. Whether she lives or dies, she will succeed in securing a future for the Forsaken.
    Explain how Kerrigan was driven by the Xel'naga, aside from Amon influencing her, Amon being a ROGUE Xel'naga that she eventually defeated.

    Literally the entire point of the Forsaken is that they are the ONLY undead who RETAIN their free will. Plenty of undead are good people who prove that Undeath doesn't make you evil.

    Your bias is showing. 1) Leaders can put up a facade and pretend they care about someone else and 2) You don't know if she'll succeed. In fact, since she's a villain and antagonist, the chances of her succeeding are close to 0.

  11. #31
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Explain how Kerrigan was driven by the Xel'naga, aside from Amon influencing her, Amon being a ROGUE Xel'naga that she eventually defeated.

    Literally the entire point of the Forsaken is that they are the ONLY undead who RETAIN their free will. Plenty of undead are good people who prove that Undeath doesn't make you evil.

    Your bias is showing. 1) Leaders can put up a facade and pretend they care about someone else and 2) You don't know if she'll succeed. In fact, since she's a villain and antagonist, the chances of her succeeding are close to 0.
    The whole thing was a Xel’Naga prophecy. It was an infinite cycle she broke.

    Many of her genocides though were committed in pursuit of Mengsk, they were her choice to unleash the Zerg that way.

    Check out the ‘conscience’ video, her compassion for the evacuation dropships was an exception; and she still killed the General before he could know she’d called the Zerg off.

    She was not nice.

    As for Sylvannas, she’s been dead more than once. She knows what awaits the Forsaken, it’s down to their nature as aberrations and the dark magic that created them. She knows damn well it doesn’t make them evil but that’s a part of what’s broken.

    Sylvannas facade already is the ruthless Banshee Queen...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The whole thing was a Xel’Naga prophecy. It was an infinite cycle she broke.

    Many of her genocides though were committed in pursuit of Mengsk, they were her choice to unleash the Zerg that way.

    Check out the ‘conscience’ video, her compassion for the evacuation dropships was an exception; and she still killed the General before he could know she’d called the Zerg off.

    She was not nice.

    As for Sylvannas, she’s been dead more than once. She knows what awaits the Forsaken, it’s down to their nature as aberrations and the dark magic that created them. She knows damn well it doesn’t make them evil but that’s a part of what’s broken.

    Sylvannas facade already is the ruthless Banshee Queen...
    The Xel'naga Ouros literally wanted her to break the cycle... she didn't exactly do something that the gods would disapprove with. And she simply didn't care. Sylvanas never shuts up about cycles and gods, she evidently cares a lot, meanwhile Kerrigan literally says that she doesn't give a shit about any of that cosmic stuff. They are literally the opposite.

    She never committed genocide in pursuit of Mengsk.

    Her compassion was NOT an exception. Later on, she decides to pull back her forces and allow the evacuation of the capital knowing full well that that would jeopardize her own invasion. She still did it because she felt it was her duty to ensure minimal casualties in her quest for revenge. The general was also asking for it, he taunted Kerrigan too much, and he knew it. He made a snarky comment about Raynor, knowing full well that Kerrigan was weak emotionally at the time. He basically begged her to kill him. He knew very well that he was doomed anyway. Plus he was a soldier, he knew what he signed up for. Unlike the innocent civilians of Teldrassil.

    Blizzard literally just confirmed that Undead are not damned in any way. The Arbiter doesn't take account of Undeath when judging a soul. This "Undead are damned to the Maw" headcanon was always that: headcanon. And it was finally shut down by Blizzard.

    Sylvanas' facade was that of a leader who, despite her evil actions, cared about the Horde. That facade ended in 8.2.5, when Sylvanas revealed her true nature. She doesn't care about anyone but herself. No, using nice words like "us" or "everyone" doesn't change the fact that she's doing all this because, simply put, she's salty SHE went to a bad afterlife. As I said, if she went to an afterlife she liked, she wouldn't have done all this. Blizzard isn't even trying to hide this obvious nuance. Stop taking what villains say at face value.

    You people need to stop comparing Sylvanas and Kerrigan because they are TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS. It's not like just because these two games are made by the same company then they are made by the same team. Sylvanas is her own character with her own story, Kerrigan is her own character with her own story. Stop forcing comparisons where there are none.

    It's not even a clever comparison, because Kerrigan is way more similar to Arthas, especially after it was revealed that the Jailer was a strong presence within the Helm of Domination.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 05:41 PM.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    The problem with the Shadowlands in both concept and World design is that whilst it claims to be infinite with new realms able to born at the whim of a single individual that supposedly conform to their necessary afterlife in actual execution we're introduced to the four governing realms, the 'punishment' realm and the entire place's capital from the start and are impressed upon that these places are both the most important locations in the Shadowlands, most influential in the development, practice and enforcement of it's beliefs and systems and have the highest priority when it comes to it's system of soul distribution whilst the rest is left to be vague and imagined. I mean it's not like we can look off from Oribos and see a realm or multiple which we can't visit but at least know it exists in addition to what is presented to us. Add on the fact that the quintessential figure that runs the whole system isn't able to be interacted with as a part of the story they're presenting so we're unable to form an impression or divine anything about them apart from information from her worshipers who are clearly biased in her favour whilst also being bound by a system she enforces deemed 'The Purpose'.

    Additionally when we confront said system and see it is deeply rooted in the construction and execution of the four 'ruling' realms that both benefit from and enforce it with a relationship that embodies nepotism. Not to mention said system is, from our perspective, extremely flawed, to some degree corrupt and working directly against the deceased achieving any sort of finality by either press ganging them into a form of eternal servitude, a return to a cycle of rebirth or being tortured on the terms of beings that have never been 'alive' and submitting to it in order to then re-enter said system for direction elsewhere or suffer eternal damnation in another form of forced servitude, no wonder on a set of principles we would feel opposed to it. Finally add on the fact we can't actually trust any of the Eternal Ones, including the Jailer, or the Arbiter as we have no actual grounds on which to establish who is being truthful and who is exploiting the scenario for their own gains.

    I mean the fact that Denathrius rejects the system that not only kept him in power and flush with anima and souls for eons and is one of the group of the people who originally incarcerated the Jailer in the Maw and is actively rectifying his actions to enable his escape suggests that there is something inherently wrong with the Shadowlands.
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  14. #34
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Xel'naga Ouros literally wanted her to break the cycle... she didn't exactly do something that the gods would disapprove with. And she simply didn't care. Sylvanas never shuts up about cycles and gods, she evidently cares a lot, meanwhile Kerrigan literally says that she doesn't give a shit about any of that cosmic stuff. They are literally the opposite.

    She never committed genocide in pursuit of Mengsk.

    Her compassion was NOT an exception. Later on, she decides to pull back her forces and allow the evacuation of the capital knowing full well that that would jeopardize her own invasion. She still did it because she felt it was her duty to ensure minimal casualties in her quest for revenge. The general was also asking for it, he taunted Kerrigan too much, and he knew it. He made a snarky comment about Raynor, knowing full well that Kerrigan was weak emotionally at the time. He basically begged her to kill him. He knew very well that he was doomed anyway. Plus he was a soldier, he knew what he signed up for. Unlike the innocent civilians of Teldrassil.

    Blizzard literally just confirmed that Undead are not damned in any way. The Arbiter doesn't take account of Undeath when judging a soul. This "Undead are damned to the Maw" headcanon was always that: headcanon. And it was finally shut down by Blizzard.

    Sylvanas' facade was that of a leader who, despite her evil actions, cared about the Horde. That facade ended in 8.2.5, when Sylvanas revealed her true nature. She doesn't care about anyone but herself. No, using nice words like "us" or "everyone" doesn't change the fact that she's doing all this because, simply put, she's salty SHE went to a bad afterlife. As I said, if she went to an afterlife she liked, she wouldn't have done all this. Blizzard isn't even trying to hide this obvious nuance. Stop taking what villains say at face value.

    You people need to stop comparing Sylvanas and Kerrigan because they are TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS. It's not like just because these two games are made by the same company then they are made by the same team. Sylvanas is her own character with her own story, Kerrigan is her own character with her own story. Stop forcing comparisons where there are none.

    It's not even a clever comparison, because Kerrigan is way more similar to Arthas, especially after it was revealed that the Jailer was a strong presence within the Helm of Domination.
    By Raynor’s own count, Kerrigan was responsible for 8 billion deaths.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    By Raynor’s own count, Kerrigan was responsible for 8 billion deaths.
    According to Raynor, Kerrigan also wasn't herself when she killed 8 billion people, and repeatedly told her not to feel bad about herself for the past.

    I'm done with this. Believe what you want. There's no point in discussing about Starcraft II with someone who hasn't played that game.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-26 at 07:32 PM.

  16. #36
    Seeing as the Kerrigan story went to shit at the end i could see them reusing it for Sylvanas.

  17. #37
    Pit Lord Aurabolt's Avatar
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    As someone actually who played SCII + Heart of the Swarm + Into the Void and therefore KNOWS Kerrigan's Redemption story--It should 100% be required to have actually PLAYED SCII + expansions before you make this kind of comparison--they are vastly different for reasons others have mostly touched on.

    The only thing Sylvanas and Kerrigan have in common is they did not choose to be changed. How they handled their new normal once they regained their free will is also different. Yes, both wanted revenge but Kerrigan wasn't nihilistic and narcissistic as shown throughout HotS and the final parts of ITV. She was clearly hardened by it and even got herself re-infested after just regaining her humanity. Despite all that, she went out of her way to not only get revenge on those who used or betrayed her but more importantly, show that she was in control now. When she went after Mensk, she ordered her Zerg Swarm to not only not attack civilians but to protect them. Her lieutenants clearly thought this order was odd and inefficient but they died what they were told. After she personally put down Mensk, she wasted no time directing the Swarm to leave the planet. To that point, she was keenly aware only a handful of people knew she was not only alive but was also no longer the enemy of Terrans and Protoss.

    Sylvanas clearly had no fucks to give about the Living and later the Undead after WotLK if they were not useful to her. As is revealed in the Loyalist ending cinematic in BFA, she hoped the Forsaken would figure out on their own the mortal world has nothing of value to offer them since they have that in common as fellow Undead. It's not that she abandoned them but more of she's respecting their choice to want to be a part of the Horde. The irony of her chat with Andiun reveals how far gone she really is now.

    In short, Sylvanas=/= Kerrigan

    Both were victims of circumstance but while Sylvanas clearly became jaded by it, both also used their new power to forge new paths once they regained their free will. In Kerrigan's case, she went out of her way to prove to Jim Raynor after she became the Queen of Blades again that she's not the one he risked everything to save during the events of WoL. In Sylvanas' case, her motive was vengeance toward Arthas. That obviously changed after Arthas was killed and...yeah.

    I think it's more than safe to say Sylvanas will not have a redemption story. Kerrigan becoming immortal was obviously over the top all things considered but at the end of the day, she got a well deserved happy ending. Sylvanas clearly will not.
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