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  1. #1

    So the Scourge was just a Shadowlands ripoff?

    So apparently Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't have a single original bone in their bodies and just copypasted everything they saw in the Shadowlands into Azeroth.

    Plagues, Liches, abominations, death knights etc from Maldraxxus.
    Val'kyr from Bastion.
    San'Layn and gargoyles from Revendreth.

    Hell even the architecture is taken from Maldraxxus and the Maw. This makes the scourge feel rather cheap, I don't like it.

  2. #2
    While technically you are correct, I would just like to think they just wash down the scourge lore to fit the shadowland lore, when scourge was first introduced, all this shadowland shit was not even an idea and from what I remember in original lore scourge copy the nerubians architecture (correct me here if I'm wrong as they keep changing the lore its really hard to keep up if you are not a 'lore nerd' )

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Krowth View Post
    So apparently Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't have a single original bone in their bodies and just copypasted everything they saw in the Shadowlands into Azeroth.

    Plagues, Liches, abominations, death knights etc from Maldraxxus.
    Val'kyr from Bastion.
    San'Layn and gargoyles from Revendreth.

    Hell even the architecture is taken from Maldraxxus and the Maw. This makes the scourge feel rather cheap, I don't like it.
    Scourge architecture was never original, they got it from the Nerubians. And whether the Nerubians or the Maldraxxians had it first is perhaps not so clear yet, as i seem to recall the devs angling for that discussion particularly.

    Likewise the plague was something the Lich King encountered in the original lore (in WotLK it was implied that Yogg-Saron created it i seem to recall), not something he made.
    Death knights too predate the Lich King, being first created by orcish warlocks.
    And magicians seeking to escape their mortality likely predate the Lich King as well (how would he be king of the liches if no liches existed beforehand? He'd just be "The Lich").
    Abominations are a fair point, but not much creativity is required to wield leftovers to horrify and act as literal meatshields.
    Also his val'kyr are likely from Odyn/Helya, who in turn got them from Bastion of course, but the point is: we already knew of those.
    Gargoyles and obsidian destroyers (wc3) are likely originally related to the nerubians/corrupted titanic creatures as well.

    As to the san'layn: apparantly there are vrykul vampires that predate them.


    Personally i find it very fitting: the scourge consists almost entirely of things not of its own creation, pretty much by definition even.
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  4. #4
    Don't try to make any logic of WoW's current lore

    It's been retconned so many times just stick with current expansion

  5. #5
    Didn't Gul'dan invent Death Knights?

  6. #6
    Wut? They just copypasta'd every art asset in the game and put it into Shadowlands - for lack of creativity.
    Mystery solved.

  7. #7
    I know the scourge got the architecture from the nerubians (or did before the retcon) but now its clear it came from Maldraxxus since they predate them for sure, plus the nerubians having the same architecture doesn't even make sense, they're supposed to be aligned with the Void right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Didn't Gul'dan invent Death Knights?
    Gul'dan death knigths were orc souls put into human bodies iirc, not the same thing as scourge death knights.

  8. #8
    Welcome to the new lore, where everything that was previously seen as original is just a ripoff of the newest superpower that they're now introducing.

    But i fundamentally agree and it's pretty poor storytelling because it makes the original lore characters appear less relevant, as they just stole ideas, rather than being the mastermind behind something.

    Despite the fact that the original explanations worked and further explanation wasn't necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Didn't Gul'dan invent Death Knights?
    Gul'dans Death Knights were more like Necromancers on undead Horses.

    The concept of the "modern" Death Knight was more or less a Ner'zhul Invention, as he chose Arthas to be his champion and be the first, new Death Knight.

    Different concepts that share the same name, which stems from the fact that originally the Scourge Death Knights in Warcraft 3 were actually supposed to be the same as the ones in Warcraft 2.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-11-27 at 07:57 PM.

  9. #9
    Friend you're trying to find meaning in an expansion that has none
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  10. #10
    The scourge were directly linked to the shadowlands via frostmourne and the helm of domination. The nerubian who are of void origins have similar architecture because the Old gods could peer into the other realities of creation and very likely showed it to them.
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  11. #11
    They're tying so much of this to Scourge stuff I think to try and make some of the Shadowlands feel less out of nowhere and random I think. As well as the usual ongoing tropes of having to make new baddies bigger and badder than old ones by being like 'you thought the Scourge was tough well see where the Scourge got its inspiration from'

  12. #12
    Banned Wildberry's Avatar
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    Honestly, that's one of the worst parts of this expansion. See the signature.

    One of the better things in the Warcraft Universe got demolished in favor of... this. Wow, thanks "Baroness" Draka, you're so much more compelling that Naxxramas & Kel'thuzad.

  13. #13
    and why does that surprise you? the Scourge only existed for some decades and they're little more than dead people, led by the will of their Lich King, were they supposed to develop their own civilization in like what? 40 years?

    the so call retcon doesn't really change much in that, even in WC3 we knew that the scourge was merely a proxy army of the Burning Legion- they just lost control of it

    now we learned that it was something more than pawns of Kil'jaeden and that Death is a legit cosmic force, at least equal to Chaos, the Fel and the Legion

    in my eyes that makes Death much more than it was (and the Lich King less since he never was the 'leader' of Death, but hey haven't we killed that guy ages ago?)

  14. #14
    Banned Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    and why does that surprise you? the Scourge only existed for some decades and they're little more than dead people, led by the will of their Lich King, were they supposed to develop their own civilization in like what? 40 years?

    the so call retcon doesn't really change much in that, even in WC3 we knew that the scourge was merely a proxy army of the Burning Legion- they just lost control of it

    now we learned that it was something more than pawns of Kil'jaeden and that Death is a legit cosmic force, at least equal to Chaos, the Fel and the Legion
    Because "cosmic forces" as they currently exist were sloppily grafted onto Lore?

    And yeah, this literally retcons & undermines Scourge Lore, quite a bit actually.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krowth View Post
    So apparently Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't have a single original bone in their bodies and just copypasted everything they saw in the Shadowlands into Azeroth.

    Plagues, Liches, abominations, death knights etc from Maldraxxus.
    Val'kyr from Bastion.
    San'Layn and gargoyles from Revendreth.

    Hell even the architecture is taken from Maldraxxus and the Maw. This makes the scourge feel rather cheap, I don't like it.
    Correct. One of the most iconic villains in the entire franchise (the LK/Scourge) has been basically demoted to a bunch of weird Maldraxxus LARP'ers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Honestly, that's one of the worst parts of this expansion. See the signature.

    One of the better things in the Warcraft Universe got demolished in favor of... this. Wow, thanks "Baroness" Draka, you're so much more compelling that Naxxramas & Kel'thuzad.
    "Look guys!!1!1!! It's the Scourge, but even Scourgier this tim1e!!1!" (Signed) Danuser.
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    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    and why does that surprise you? the Scourge only existed for some decades and they're little more than dead people, led by the will of their Lich King, were they supposed to develop their own civilization in like what? 40 years?
    IMO it cheapens the scourge and the lich king since they just copied everything instead of being their own thing. I can forgive things like the Valkyr since their origin was always kinda in the air but things like necropolises, abominations, the plague etc that always had an origin should be kept like that. These retcons only cheapen the previous story and doesn't make the new one cooler either, it just feels like a rehash.

    Hell they even have spider people in maldraxxus for some reason, I guess you're only allowed to keep your form there if you're nostalgiabait

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Krowth View Post
    IMO it cheapens the scourge and the lich king since they just copied everything instead of being their own thing. I can forgive things like the Valkyr since their origin was always kinda in the air but things like necropolises, abominations, the plague etc that always had an origin should be kept like that. These retcons only cheapen the previous story and doesn't make the new one cooler either, it just feels like a rehash.

    Hell they even have spider people in maldraxxus for some reason, I guess you're only allowed to keep your form there if you're nostalgiabait
    like i said think about it, a bunch of corpses stuck in Northrend for a few decades, how could they possibly develop all those things? an entire school of magic, a unique architectural style, bio weapons, abomination factories

    did Nerzhul come up with all that stuff while he was traped in ice? or did a couple of madmen from Cult of the Damn figure it all out?

    the assumed old lore never made any sense as well, so it cheapens nothing

  18. #18
    Banned Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyanu View Post
    the assumed old lore never made any sense as well, so it cheapens nothing
    a unique architectural style
    Blizzard literally stated that the Scourge got its architectural style from the Nerubians, who were the first big target of the Lich King. If you had bothered actually paying attention to the old lore, you'd find it actually does make sense. Quite a bit more than the current trash we put up with.

    Perhaps if you understood the old lore, which you clearly don't, you wouldn't be so ambivalent about it being trashed in favor of new "lore."

  19. #19
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    If the Jailer is linked to the Helm, and somewhat controlled the LK, would that not explain it?
    "We learn from history, that we learn nothing from history." - George B. Shaw

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    Scourge architecture was never original, they got it from the Nerubians. And whether the Nerubians or the Maldraxxians had it first is perhaps not so clear yet, as i seem to recall the devs angling for that discussion particularly.
    The Nerubians got it from the Tol'vir.

    The entities known as obsidian destroyers are actually enslaved titan constructs that were once called the tol'vir. The tol'vir were created to maintain titan lore repositories and titan machinery surrounding the titan cities of Ulduar and Uldum. Not long after the troll empires divided the insectoid kingdom of the aqir, the aqir that travelled north discovered and overthrew the tol'vir society in Northrend. These aqir would eventually become the race we know as the nerubians today, having adapted the tol'vir's architecture for their own purposes.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20100704...pageNo=1&sid=1
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-11-27 at 11:04 PM.

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