So the Scourge was just a Shadowlands ripoff?

[Nerovar]

Aha, so the Tol'vir, who had nothing to do with undeath somehow had that bony style of architecture, and then the nerubians, who had nothing to do with undeath took it, and then the undead Scourge, who had the Lich King, who had artifacts from the Shadowlands, took it, NOT FROM THE SHADOWLANDS, but from the Nerubians, who they then also turned into undead.

What a fascinating story.

The tol'vir probably made the overall shapes (pyramids etc.), nerubians gave it the more creepy look and then finally the Scourge added bones, magic, skulls to form the architecture we know.

I mean, it's not meant to make any sense. It is a retcon after all. We can see this all over the more recent lore. It's usually just less cut-and-dry.

It's not fucking assumed lore if you know Pre Shadowlands lore, it's in there and nobody ever questioned it because it worked.

I feel like at this point Blizzard is trying to gaslight people who played the earlier Warcraft games/versions of WoW.

[Ielenia]

So apparently Ner'zhul and Arthas didn't have a single original bone in their bodies and just copypasted everything they saw in the Shadowlands into Azeroth.

Plagues, Liches, abominations, death knights etc from Maldraxxus.
Val'kyr from Bastion.
San'Layn and gargoyles from Revendreth.

Hell even the architecture is taken from Maldraxxus and the Maw. This makes the scourge feel rather cheap, I don't like it.

... You're acting as if Ner'zhul peered into Shadowlands and was like "y'know what? I'mma copy that!"

You do know that the Lich King did not "create itself", right? The Lich King is a creation from the Nathrezim inside the Shadowlands. The Jailer influenced all of the Scourge through the Lich King's magical armor and weapon.

[Wildberry]

The tol'vir probably made the overall shapes (pyramids etc.), nerubians gave it the more creepy look and then finally the Scourge added bones, magic, skulls to form the architecture we know.

I mean, it's not meant to make any sense. It is a retcon after all. We can see this all over the more recent lore. It's usually just less cut-and-dry.

Honestly, I don't think it's that far-fetched as an idea. Take a look at Orcish architecture for a similar example.

Garrosh explicitly tried to do "Old Horde Revivalism," and yet there were still plenty of differences between, say, the rebuilt Orgrimmar and Hellfire Citadel. The former was an explicit attempt to imitate the latter, but still looked slightly different. It's not far-fetched to assume that between cultural experiences, different material, subsequent architectural innovations, and the jump from Orcish builders to Goblin contractors all played a role.

Given instances such as this, I don't think it's overly surprising that we see a difference between Tol'vir, Nerubian, and Scourge architecture. Even if they're derivatives of the preceding style.

It's certainly more satisfying and makes more sense than: "All that stuff we said about the Scourge is untrue, actually. Here's Maldraxxus, which is basically sum of Scourge architectural, magical, and scientific prowess."

[Krowth]

... You're acting as if Ner'zhul peered into Shadowlands and was like "y'know what? I'mma copy that!"

You do know that the Lich King did not "create itself", right? The Lich King is a creation from the Nathrezim inside the Shadowlands. The Jailer influenced all of the Scourge through the Lich King's magical armor and weapon.

Yeah I know thats the new lore excuse for it, but still feels cheap. All these things had explanations already, what's the point of retconning it for something worse and less interesting. They didn't even try either, when asked about why nerubians have the same architecture they just said they copied it from Maldraxxus too, even though they're supposed to be Void followers, It feels like the new writers just want to shit on the old lore for no reason honestly.

[Nerovar]

... You're acting as if Ner'zhul peered into Shadowlands and was like "y'know what? I'mma copy that!"

You do know that the Lich King did not "create itself", right? The Lich King is a creation from the Nathrezim inside the Shadowlands. The Jailer influenced all of the Scourge through the Lich King's magical armor and weapon.

Doesn't really work with established lore. Prior to Shadowlands Kil'jaeden created the LK and the Dread Lords were only there to guard him. Then again, Nathrezim used to be an inherently demonic species birthed by the Twisting Nether (which also seems to be retconned).

Holding Ner'zhul's spirit helpless in stasis, Kil'jaeden gave him one last chance to serve the Legion or suffer eternal torment. Once again, Ner'zhul recklessly agreed to the demon's pact. Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand-fold. Warped by the demon's chaotic powers, Ner'zhul became a spectral being of unfathomable power. At that moment, the orc known as Ner'zhul was shattered forever, and the Lich King was born.

Though Ner'zhul was agreeable and seemingly anxious to play his part, Kil'jaeden remained skeptical of his pawn's loyalties. Keeping the Lich King bodiless and trapped within the crystal cask assured his good conduct for the short term, but the demon knew that he would need to keep a watchful eye on him. To this end, Kil'jaeden called upon his elite demon guard, the vampiric dreadlords, to police Ner'zhul and ensure that he accomplished his dread task. Tichondrius, the most powerful and cunning of the dreadlords, warmed to the challenge; he was fascinated by the plague's severity and the Lich King's unbridled potential for genocide.

Man, it's really rough when current lore makes less sense than the deranged 9/11 truther conspiracy theories your uncle shares on facebook.

Honestly, I don't think it's that far-fetched as an idea. Take a look at Orcish architecture for a similar example.

Garrosh explicitly tried to do "Old Horde Revivalism," and yet there were still plenty of differences between, say, the rebuilt Orgrimmar and Hellfire Citadel. The former was an explicit attempt to imitate the latter, but still looked slightly different. It's not far-fetched to assume that between cultural experiences, different material, subsequent architectural innovations, and the jump from Orcish builders to Goblin contractors all played a role.

Given instances such as this, I don't think it's overly surprising that, conceptually, we see a difference between Tol'vir, Nerubian, and Scourge architecture. Even if they're derivatives of the preceding style.

It's certainly more satisfying and makes more sense than: "All that stuff we said about the Scourge is untrue, actually. Here's Maldraxxus, which is basically sum of Scourge architectural, magical, and scientific prowess."

You misunderstand; I totally agree with you. It's the "it's from Maldraxxus" retcon that doesn't make any sense. The tol'vir retcon was unnecessary but it's way less intrusive and primarily exists to solve the question of the origin of Obsidian Destroyers.

Yeah I know thats the new lore excuse for it, but still feels cheap. All these things had explanations already, what's the point of retconning it for something worse and less interesting. They didn't even try either, when asked about why nerubians have the same architecture they just said they copied it from Maldraxxus too, even though they're supposed to be Void followers, It feels like the new writers just want to shit on the old lore for no reason honestly.

They primarily care about telling their own stories without regards for consistency/continuity. It's not malevolent - they simply don't care.

[Houle]

If the Jailer is linked to the Helm, and somewhat controlled the LK, would that not explain it?

thats not the point of the discussion lol
the point of the discussion is that blizz retconned the old scourge lore, to make the scourge now a rip-off of shadowlands forces.
same as what you just said abou the LK. the LK used to be its own being, now its basically a jailer copy in the real world (and maybe evn controlled by the jailer the entire time)
it cheapens the original things like scourge and LK, and thats whats pissing people off.

on topic: yeah, blizz fcked the scourge with this addon. funny enough, they fcked all of their big 3 villain factions (legion, scourge, old gods) in the last 3 addons LOL
Blizz had 3 big villain factions in the past: the Burning Legion, the Scourge, and the Old Gods

Legion: turned the BL into dumb brutes who didnt even have Argus under their full control, then ended them

BfA: turned N'zoth and Ny'alotha into a big dumb joke, that lasted a single patch and then got obliterated

SL: turned the LK and the Scourge into cheap copycats who have been manipulated and controlled the entire time

[Ealyssa]

Yeah I know thats the new lore excuse for it, but still feels cheap.

Yeah no, it doesn't. You may not like it, sure. But that doesn't weaken it, at all.

All these things had explanations already

They literally didn't. We never knew where the helm or Frostmourne came from. Only that KJ put Ner'zhul's soul into the helm of domination.

[Kralljin]

I feel like at this point Blizzard is trying to gaslight people who played the earlier Warcraft games/versions of WoW.

It reminds me a lot of Metal Gear Solid franchise, the 4th installment in particular.

While i'm not going into detail of that franchise, the 4th installment is rather notorious for "recontextualizing" elements established in the previous games and somehow attempts to connect its prequels into one singular story to pretend that they've all been just means to end of some mastermind working behind the scenes.

It's same thing here, the old lore, at least Warcraft 3 Era stuff worked, the explanations made sense in the context of the world and lore, yet now are being recontextualized so that anything related to the theme of death has been connected to the Shadowlands all along.

[Cyanu]

the entire arguement was that the Scourge is now cheapened because it got things from somewhere else

what i said is that even in the original take, the scourge had taken everything from somewhere else (dreadlords,nebubians,kj)- the Scourge was never a force of creation/construction/research, so nothing got 'cheaper' here, why does it even matter if it was the Nerubians or Maldraxxus? in fact the Nerubians themselves might have also borrowed things from Maldraxxus... there's nothing deep or complicated about the old lore, you just never bothered to question it because back then you were a kid and now it's part of your childhood and therefore sacred, everyone who disagrees is an delusional idiot blah blah blah

[Xosimos]

thats not the point of the discussion lol
the point of the discussion is that blizz retconned the old scourge lore, to make the scourge now a rip-off of shadowlands forces.
same as what you just said abou the LK. the LK used to be its own being, now its basically a jailer copy in the real world (and maybe evn controlled by the jailer the entire time)
it cheapens the original things like scourge and LK, and thats whats pissing people off.

It's possible that I have the wrong idea, but I think you're the one who's mistaken. The OP makes it sound like the discussion was about how the architecture and looks of certain members of the scourge were similar in looks to what is found in the shadowlands.
I completely agree that this new lore lessens the scourges past, btw.

Edit: Perhaps it's about both, actually?

[Depakote]

This is stupid. I mean they can expand on their characters as much as they want, it's their story.

[Wildberry]

the entire arguement was that the Scourge is now cheapened because it got things from somewhere else

The entire argument is that the Scourge is cheapened because all of its influences are now retconned and whereas it used to exist in an organic world with natural crossover to neighboring races & cultures, all of these crossovers and its own innovations have been scribbled over with the words "MALDRAXXUS" and "MAW."

what i said is that even in the original take, the scourge had taken everything from somewhere else (dreadlords,nebubians,kj)- the Scourge was never a force of creation/construction/research,

The problem is that its prior influences were logical and served to firmly ground the Scourge as a part of Azeroth. It's also completely unacceptable as a matter of storytelling to say "Yeah, X, Y, and Z didn't actually happen, A, B and C did. Why are you mad? It's basically the same thing!" The latter statement misses the point entirely.

Also, this line of yours is just objectively factually incorrect, too. As @Kralljin pointed out, Kel'thuzad is credited in multiple canon sources as having created the abomination.

"The abomination is one of the Archlich Kel'Thuzad's most utilitarian creations."

why does it even matter if it was the Nerubians or Maldraxxus? in fact the Nerubians themselves might have also borrowed things from Maldraxxus...

1. Because the Scourge picking up things from the Nerubians serves to bolster both Scourge & Nerubian identity and root both within Azeroth as organic participants in the story. Rather than coming across as lazily grafted on (sort of like how Maldraxxus feels).
2. Why would Nerubians have such a degree of connection to the Shadowlands that they would be capable of recreating Maldraxxus?

there's nothing deep or complicated about the old lore,

You'd be better served if there was, because at least then it would be understandable for you to trip up this much over it.

everyone who disagrees is an delusional idiot blah blah blah

Unironically yes.

It turns out that just dumping new things on the story, and writing them in a manner that they invalidate previous elements of the story is objectively and inarguably bad writing. Who knew?

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This is stupid. I mean they can expand on their characters as much as they want, it's their story.

It's less "expanding" and more "rewriting." Someone can also burn down their house, it is, after all, theirs. It doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Krowth]

the entire arguement was that the Scourge is now cheapened because it got things from somewhere else

what i said is that even in the original take, the scourge had taken everything from somewhere else (dreadlords,nebubians,kj)- the Scourge was never a force of creation/construction/research, so nothing got 'cheaper' here, why does it even matter if it was the Nerubians or Maldraxxus? in fact the Nerubians themselves might have also borrowed things from Maldraxxus... there's nothing deep or complicated about the old lore, you just never bothered to question it because back then you were a kid and now it's part of your childhood and therefore sacred, everyone who disagrees is an delusional idiot blah blah blah

But they didn't copy everything from somewhere else, just the necropolises from the nerubians they killed and raised. The abominations for example were KT's creation but now apparently they always existed in Maldraxxus.

[Selah]

Keep in mind, this new lore sets it up so that Arthas was under the Jailer's influence. So the scourge and the DKs were all designs of the Jailer... who is likely to have seen all of these places and maybe even had a hand in creating them.

[melzas]

This is stupid. I mean they can expand on their characters as much as they want, it's their story.

Well it's true, but adults stuck with mentality of 15 years old, who treat their teenager days favourite game like a sacred thing that needs to be preserved in its pure form don't.

Gameplay has always trumped over lore in wow. Blizzardr tries to make it interesting and all, but it's MMO first and RPG second.

Yes, they need to make adjustments and retcons to the lore, and they have been doing that since freaking vanilla, because otherwise they would end up with a world in which they can't touch anything because lore would be too much of a burden.

I would guess that players that actually care about the lore enough to ponder the origin of scourge architecture are such a tiny minority that honestly Blizzard would be stupid to create their game world around this "consistency". Yeah, shadowlands lore has massive retcons and cheapens the scourge. Whatever. Most players don't give a damn, as long as it looks cool and makes nice background for good gameplay.

[Saltysquidoon]

The fact that Maldraxxus has spider people when the nerubrians are the void affiliated creations of the old gods is all that needs to be said honestly. There is no defence or explanation for this beyond "'member the scourge?"

Maldraxxus is literally nothing but PR mandated naked nostalgia bait and nothing else.

Likewise the plague was something the Lich King encountered in the original lore (in WotLK it was implied that Yogg-Saron created it i seem to recall), not something he made.

You got a source for that? Because World of Warcraft seems to disagree with you.

This is stupid. I mean they can expand on their characters as much as they want, it's their story.

And no one is saying they can't? What blizzard can or cannot do with their own IP it entirely disconnected with the quality of their writing or it's internal consistency.

[bagina]

Maldraxxus triggers me so damn hard.

But they didn't copy everything from somewhere else, just the necropolises from the nerubians they killed and raised. The abominations for example were KT's creation but now apparently they always existed in Maldraxxus.

It's extra stupid to me because abominations looked the way they did only because they were corpses sewn together. The Scourge had buildings where they assembled various constructs from flesh. Bodies decay, meat falls off the bones etc, perfectly logical. It wasn't an aesthetic, there was valid reason they looked like that.

Now however, it turns out the abominations exist in the fucking afterlife. Where decay shouldn't even exist as a concept. All those skeletons and abominations are just an aesthetic without any logic behind it. They just wanted to do another Scourge zone. It takes me right out of the story because it's so forced.

[Nerovar]

And the guys in Maldraxxus coincidentally did the same thing?

No, they changed the explanation I gave you to "the Scourge copied it from Maldraxxus".

I would guess that players that actually care about the lore enough to ponder the origin of scourge architecture are such a tiny minority that honestly Blizzard would be stupid to create their game world around this "consistency". Yeah, shadowlands lore has massive retcons and cheapens the scourge. Whatever. Most players don't give a damn, as long as it looks cool and makes nice background for good gameplay.

"Most players" might not care now but they certainly will once these things amass. The Scourge architecture thing is merely emblematic of the larger change. Believe it or not, WoW is an old game and is mostly played by people who played games like WC1-3 back in the days. It's the universe they've grown attached to. By repeatedly retconning stuff and cheapening their older stories, they risk undermining the identity of the franchise and people will become less involved until they ultimately lose interest. After all, why would you stay engaged in something that could change into any direction anytime? It's death by a thousand cuts.

[Depakote]

Well it's true, but adults stuck with mentality of 15 years old, who treat their teenager days favourite game like a sacred thing that needs to be preserved in its pure form don't.

Gameplay has always trumped over lore in wow. Blizzardr tries to make it interesting and all, but it's MMO first and RPG second.

Yes, they need to make adjustments and retcons to the lore, and they have been doing that since freaking vanilla, because otherwise they would end up with a world in which they can't touch anything because lore would be too much of a burden.

I would guess that players that actually care about the lore enough to ponder the origin of scourge architecture are such a tiny minority that honestly Blizzard would be stupid to create their game world around this "consistency". Yeah, shadowlands lore has massive retcons and cheapens the scourge. Whatever. Most players don't give a damn, as long as it looks cool and makes nice background for good gameplay.

Don't think this is a retcon just an expanding on known lore.

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Maldraxxus triggers me so damn hard.



It's extra stupid to me because abominations looked the way they did only because they were corpses sewn together. The Scourge had buildings where they assembled various constructs from flesh. Bodies decay, meat falls off the bones etc, perfectly logical. It wasn't an aesthetic, there was valid reason they looked like that.

Now however, it turns out the abominations exist in the fucking afterlife. Where decay shouldn't even exist as a concept. All those skeletons and abominations are just an aesthetic without any logic behind it. They just wanted to do another Scourge zone. It takes me right out of the story because it's so forced.

I mean it makes sense really if the helm of domination was stolen and used by the burning crusade. It's not forced, you're just being a bit narrow in your thinking.

[Lord Pebbleton]

WoW's lore is so unbelievably jarring. I never really got into it, but that's exactly because there are a thousand different versions of the same thing.

Retcons are a shameful last resort for a writer. I know because I am a writer myself. It feels wrong to send out a retcon because your own failure at conveying a convincing message is reflected in it.

WoW is not, and will never be, a sound piece of literature, but by now it's probably more retcon than plot. They always try to bite more than they can chew and then they must do compromises to keep the boat floating.

Also, yes, the Scourge IS cheapened when it gets retconned out of its merits.