Does the Kyrian covenant story make them any less horrendous?

[Xilurm]

How does this relate to or disprove anything I've said? I already gave my opinion on this tired example with a vengeful soul you're repeating, read my post again. If a soul seeks vengeance that means they're not supposed to be doing this job in the first place. If a soul still hasn't made peace with their death and forgiven their murderer then that only means they need more time to heal or they don't belong in Bastion at al. Any serious order will have strict rules its members have to follow. If the order doesn't trust it's members to adhere to the rules then what kind of order is that? You give them centuries of training and a single rule to follow the protocol or there will be consequences. A normal thing, really.

Also Uther had like what, 5 laughable years to accept his past? That's very little time even for mortal souls to heal from their grief. No wonder he was still pissed. That's a weak as fuck example.

Also Kyrians haven't always existed. Archon was the first Kyrian. Someone had to bring the first mortal souls to the Shadowlands.

Ok, well. Blizzard disagrees with you obviously. You're trying to make sense of lore that was never 100% consistent anyways. People here are giving reasons that make sense but you just disagree with them. So, whats the point exactly? What are you trying to prove? That Blizzard are bad writers? That ain't news.

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I understand the concept of needing a neutral party, but at the same time I don't know why that's "needed". I thought the Arbiter is the one making all the decisions? Yeah, Uther threw Arthas into the Maw for story purposes, but why can Kyrians even make those calls to begin with?

I don't even quite understand why Kyrians are needed in the first place, don't souls just go to the Shadowlands and the Arbiter when they die and then transferred off elsewhere?

Arbiter just makes the decision. Kyrians are the one who ferry them. The Oribos cinematic and the way the place looks aesthetically with the souls going to and from the Arbiter doesn't make much sense. Unless the Kyrians just leave the souls in a certain place which we haven't seen yet.

[bagina]

Ok, well. Blizzard disagrees with you obviously. You're trying to make sense of lore that was never 100% consistent anyways. People here are giving reasons that make sense but you just disagree with them. So, whats the point exactly? What are you trying to prove? That Blizzard are bad writers? That ain't news.

Well, this thread is trying to prove that Kyrians are a fucked up society. That's the general topic of the discussion. It's one of the most interesting threads right now imo, I'm having a lot of fun reading it. Beyond that, I don't know, discussing stuff for the sake of discussing stuff is kind of the point of these forums.

And who knows, maybe it was intentional and Blizz will address the issue of memory wiping more thoroughly in the future. Maybe it will be a big plot point.

[Soon-TM]

Oh come on, the Orcs genocidal nature brought them to Azeroth and powered the trip. They wouldn’t have stopped once they arrived either, and many of them never wanted to even after Thrall’s “redemption” of them.

WoW has always had morality tails, even before Arthas.

Oh look, another Danuser/Golden acolyte

Btw you are wrong, especially the last part.

[Malania]

You're judging them on the morality of the living. They aren't alive and they have a purpose imbued into them by the literal judge of your life and deeds. It might not make sense or seem horrendous to us but this is a case of black and white vs blue and orange morality. It's not the same. You can't judge them by our standards because their existence doesn't match up with ours.

[bagina]

You're judging them on the morality of the living. They aren't alive and they have a purpose imbued into them by the literal judge of your life and deeds. It might not make sense or seem horrendous to us but this is a case of black and white vs blue and orange morality. It's not the same. You can't judge them by our standards because their existence doesn't match up with ours.

*self-proclaimed judge. Some people seem to forget that the Arbiter is just some entity in the WoW's cosmos that someone else installed in the afterlife to segregate the souls. She has no real claim to any souls. The perspective of being judged after you die works in Christianity because the judge is simultenously the omnipotent creator and the sole ruler of all reality. He has the credentials basically. The Arbiter is neither of those things. From the perspecitve of a WoW mortal it is absolutely BS. Why should anyone else decide for them?

We will and should judge them from the perspective of the mortals of Azeroth because that's what the PC literaly is. A mortal from Azeroth. And it's their future life, so of course they'd be concerned if something shady was going on. This whole fucking expansion rests upon the idea that we judge Sylvanas from the perspetive of the living.

[Malania]

*self-proclaimed judge. Some people seem to forget that the Arbiter is just some entity in the WoW's cosmos that someone else installed in the afterlife to segregate the souls. She has no real claim to any souls. The perspective of being judged after you die works in Christianity because the judge is simultenously the omnipotent creator and the sole ruler of all reality. He has the credentials basically. The Arbiter is neither of those things. Form the perspecitve of a WoW mortal it is absolutely BS.

We will and should judge them from the perspective of the mortals of Azeroth because that's what the PC literaly is. A mortal from Azeroth. And it's their future life, so of course they'd be concerned if something shady was going on. This whole fucking expansion rests upon the idea that we judge Sylvanas from the perspective of the living.

That's fair enough but no society has the same rules and views on morality. Some societies practiced cannibalism (including ones on Azeroth) and from our point of view that may be abhorrent, from there's it would be perfectly normal. Who's view are we to judge who is right? This is basically the crux of moralism in all it's forms. Morality is subjective for individuals and societies and subject to moral relativism.

The Arbiter was put in place by the first ones who designed the afterlife and are the closest being as you put it to an omnipotent creator and the rulers of reality. The Arbiter was put there specifically to fulfill the role and ultimately they are the judge set forth by God.

Beyond that, all you can say about the Arbiter and the Kyrians is that they fulfill an ultimate function in the cycle of reality of the Warcraft universe and no more. Whether you agree with what they do or judge them as the PC doesn't really matter when you're talking about death. You don't really get a vote on the matter. According to the lore, this is how the universe was designed and it's above your objections.

[Elkas]

*self-proclaimed judge. Some people seem to forget that the Arbiter is just some entity in the WoW's cosmos that someone else installed in the afterlife to segregate the souls. She has no real claim to any souls. The perspective of being judged after you die works in Christianity because the judge is simultenously the omnipotent creator and the sole ruler of all reality. He has the credentials basically. The Arbiter is neither of those things. From the perspecitve of a WoW mortal it is absolutely BS. Why should anyone else decide for them?

We will and should judge them from the perspective of the mortals of Azeroth because that's what the PC literaly is. A mortal from Azeroth. And it's their future life, so of course they'd be concerned if something shady was going on. This whole fucking expansion rests upon the idea that we judge Sylvanas from the perspetive of the living.

You are failing spectacularly at imagining how the average character in the WoW universe thinks or experiences his life. Instead, you're basically inserting yourself into their minds.

[Krakan]

All covenants are clearly evil.

They either feed off of or enslave others it would be interesting if blizzard had better writers.

Instead everyone is dreading a sylvannas redemption story.

[bagina]

You are failing spectacularly at imagining how the average character in the WoW universe thinks or experiences his life. Instead, you're basically inserting yourself into their minds.

Got anything actually constructive to say? If not then don't reply to me please.

[naeblis495]

I hate those blue automatons.

They force good beings to suffer and rip everything that made them "them" , only to reprogram/brainwash the now empty receptacle to only experience and follow their "path".


"B-but , only selfless souls go to bastion so it's okay for them to suffer for "the greater good", they're made for that! "

That argument is the worst garbage i ever saw . We see many souls straight up refuse to continue the process and ask the other kyrians to stop torturing them, only for them to be forced to continue until they turn into forsworn and for the Kyrians asking us , "champions" to kill them , erasing those poor souls from reality.

That bit alone also prove that the "Arbiter" is flawed as fuck , sending souls to afterlives that are clearly NOT made for them . If those souls were truly made to be Kyrians , they wouldn't complain about the process and would gladly accept to suffer throught the process.

Even the super sadistical bdsm cracked up vampire's system seems 10 000 times better (on paper) . At the end of their process , the soul truly understood what they did wrong ,repent and strive to be something better . The ventyrs achieve that WITHOUT erasing everything about the soul and actually inflict torture to souls that most likely deserved it ( The Arbiter being flawed as hell make the entirety of the afterlife flawed by default) . And if the soul, after thousands upon thousands of years of torture and many chances to change, still doesn't repent and continue to be a sweat goblin , then into the maw they go ,like they deserve .

The whole afterlife of the wow cosmology is an eternal hell hole , full of horrible options . i would rather cease to exist the moment i die than go in any of them .

[Malania]

I hate those blue automatons.

They force good beings to suffer and rip everything that made them "them" , only to reprogram/brainwash the now empty receptacle to only experience and follow their "path".


"B-but , only selfless souls go to bastion so it's okay for them to suffer for "the greater good", they're made for that! "

That argument is the worst garbage i ever saw . We see many souls straight up refuse to continue the process and ask the other kyrians to stop torturing them, only for them to be forced to continue until they turn into forsworn and for the Kyrians asking us , "champions" to kill them , erasing those poor souls from reality.

That bit alone also prove that the "Arbiter" is flawed as fuck , sending souls to afterlives that are clearly NOT made for them . If those souls were truly made to be Kyrians , they wouldn't complain about the process and would gladly accept to suffer throught the process.

Even the super sadistical bdsm cracked up vampire's system seems 10 000 times better (on paper) . At the end of their process , the soul truly understood what they did wrong ,repent and strive to be something better . The ventyrs achieve that WITHOUT erasing everything about the soul and actually inflict torture to souls that most likely deserved it ( The Arbiter being flawed as hell make the entirety of the afterlife flawed by default) . And if the soul, after thousands upon thousands of years of torture and many chances to change, still doesn't repent and continue to be a sweat goblin , then into the maw they go ,like they deserve .

The whole afterlife of the wow cosmology is an eternal hell hole , full of horrible options . i would rather cease to exist the moment i die than go in any of them .

But they did accept it. It was only when Uther came with damage from a maw weapon that one of them became unsure how it happened.

[Jessicka]

But they did accept it. It was only when Uther came with damage from a maw weapon that one of them became unsure how it happened.

Amazing how people think duress and coercion are the same as consent.

[Rageonit]

I think it's easier to understand the Kyrian values if you don't anthropomorphize every sentient creature you meet in this game. Kyrians are not humans, therefore I see no reason why they should follow human ethics. Why you should expect them to? This is why communication between different cultures is so hard (and why we probably couldn't understand "aliens", if we ever met them) - we have a tendency to project our values on every intelligent being we encounter and we're surprised (outraged even) if they don't follow them. Then we try to force our values on them, and then we have wars. So it's probably better for Kyrians to be as un-human as it is, he he, humanly possible

[Eapoe]

The thing is, Kyrians being this way is why the system worked. The righteous, noble, and selfless go there. The people who know what it means to serve and place others (including the world and tenets) above themselves. Having their mind erased and ascending to a higher plane is necessary as it allows them to be impartial and carry out their task as needed. It’s not evil to be indifferent when someone is being delivered to where their life takes them.
I’m sure others have pointed out, but when a being lets their emotions and personal ties overcome them, we get the situation of Uther. Sneaking to Icecrown with another Kyrian to snatch Arthas’ soul and condemn him to the Maw without judgement. Even if Arthas was destined for there, Uther bypassed the entire system for his own vengeance, that he dubbed justice.
Now we have Kyrian doubting themselves and wanting to destroy order.

[bagina]

I think it's easier to understand the Kyrian values if you don't anthropomorphize every sentient creature you meet in this game. Kyrians are not humans, therefore I see now reason why they should follow human ethics. Why you should expect them to? This is why communication between different cultures is so hard (and why we probably couldn't understand "aliens", if we ever met them) - we have a tendency to project our values on every intelligent being we encounter and are we're surprised (outraged even) if don't follow them.

Because they force their "culture" onto souls? It wouldn't be a big deal if they were just some tribe of weirdos that minded their own business. Instead they preach their ideals and indoctrinate a big number of souls that arrive to the afterlife...

@Eapoe
Uther is a retarded example. He's been in Bastion for what, 5 years? That's not enough for a normal human to deal with their grief. Kyrians are said to spend EONS on healing and meditating. Also, don't you see how weird that is? You basically admit that it's okay to erase a suffering soul's memories so it can be an efficent worker. Every time you use this argument you admit that the soul in question wouldn't be ready otherwise, that it still has lingering regrets and grievances. They're not actually ready at all. Read my previous posts itt.

Freaking ANYONE could carry souls if you erased their memories. Their noble deeds in life are inconsequential. No need for any meditations and rituals.

[Rageonit]

Because they force their "culture" onto souls? It wouldn't be a big deal if they were just some tribe of weirdos that minded their own business. Instead they preach their ideals and indoctrinate a big number of souls that arrive to the afterlife...

Try having a child and not forcing your culture onto it. Then let us know how it went
We all force our culture on those who surrounds us. That's how society works, there's no other option. The difference is, you don't enjoy Kyrian culture. Well maybe they wouldn't enjoy yours? It's not like they are invading "our" world (by our, I mean Azeroth in this context) - they only follow their purpose in the Shadowlands. And you can't accept that, because in our culture happiness of an individual is one of the most important values. For them, it is not. Don't judge them by your own rules, they follow different.

[LordTakeo]

The reason for Kyrians being mind-wiped is clearly shown as the right thing when Uther threw Arthas into the Maw, potentially starting the process of freeing the Jailer.

Only the truly selfless go to Bastion, with an infinite amount of afterlives tailored to those who are not willing to make those sacrifices. Even with that Bastion does fully explain why it is needed, Kyrians are given massive amounts of power over life and death, and this kind of power could easily be abused if someone decides that they rather think someone deserves to go to Revendreth or even the Maw, or vice versa.

Ikr? It makes sense why they do it, it's still horrible, but only those who would fit this, people who are the least selfish, are sent to bastion in the first place.

[Malania]

Amazing how people think duress and coercion are the same as consent.

There was none when Uther arrived. Just a statement of fact which basically added up to "You died, for your lifetime of service to others you have been chosen to ascend and help others to do the same eventually. This is how the afterlife works." Ascension isn't a trivial thing, it does offer a lot of power and can't be just given to anyone. They have to be impartial and fair. Go figure?

It's confusing why people think they're entitled to choose an afterlife. If there is a force greater than you with the knowledge and ability to judge you, you don't get a choice on the matter. Take that up with "God".

[bagina]

Try having a child and not forcing your culture onto it. Then let us know how it went
We all force our culture on those who surrounds us. That's how society works, there's no other option. The difference is, you don't enjoy Kyrian culture. Well maybe they wouldn't enjoy yours? It's not like they are invading "our" world (by our, I mean Azeroth in this context) - they only follow their purpose in the Shadowlands. And you can't accept that, because in our culture happiness of an individual is one of the most important values. For them, it is not. Don't judge them by your own rules, they follow different.

What a dumb analogy. For one, they don't create/birth souls, they take them. Secondly, there's a difference between being born and dying. When you are born you are a blank slate with no experiences, memories and knowledge. When you die you take the memories of your whole life with you. "Don't invade"? Actually, they kind of do. Every time when a person dies and they appear in the land of the living. For all intents and purposes they kidnap the souls.

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It's confusing why people think they're entitled to choose an afterlife. If there is a force greater than you with the knowledge and ability to judge you, you don't get a choice on the matter. Take that up with "God".

So you agree that Sylvanas and the Jailer have every right to do what they are planning to do simple because they are powerful enough to do it? Gotcha

[ZenX]

If the system of Shadowlands with its Covenants and the Arbiter was divinely perfect then there would have been no Shadowlands expansion.
All the realms and their mentality is flawed that they are at the point that they are.
Heck; the general outlook of it spells the narrative that the Eternal Ones and their zones seem to have been made/created to bolster the cosmic power of Life whose avatars/envoys are the Wild Gods which are the only ones to be rebirthed while every mortal soul is either fuel or a servant to realm's system.
Perhaps Zovaal was initially only not content with Death essentially being a servant to Life and wanted better conditions yet being imprisioned probably made him bitter to the point that he wants Death's domination as opposed to an equal seating in the high table of cosmic forces.

The whole story is about how the system of Shadowlands aka the path/cycle is horrendous not just the Kyrian. Yet what Zovaal's endgame spells for the rest of the mortal realm of ours will not be any better so we'll have Sylvanas bitching and crying at the end of it all. She might have had good intentions but the way she executed her plan spanning from it has been a cluster fuck.

People wanted real-life like flawed characters thinking it would make the story good and they have it now though the quality of the latter is questionable...