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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Like, do they realise that being mind-wiping, identity erasing, slave drivers actually makes them really, really horrible and horrendously offensive people? Do they actually move to change their ways, or is it all about doubling down into turning everyone into obedient blue clones?

    I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.
    Did you even read the story?

    Shadowlands is about finding the right afterlive for you. Its not about being obedient. Its about letting go of the past that might burden you. Hell its shown that Uther can not, and becomes evil.
    And they do not force it.

    Really did you play the expansion? Doubtful i think.

    So let me break it down. Aribter see's all souls and says where you need to go. What your reward, punhistment or next step in (after)life is.
    You go to your version of hell, heaven etc. You do not decided what your faith is. Your actions, your way of thinking ( as far as is know so far in the expansion) dictates your reward/punishment.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I like the aesthetic of their stuff, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to actually want to suffer listening to their NPCs just offending me every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    their NPCs just offending me every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    offending me every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    offending me
    Isn't this a bit too much? It's just a choice in a video game. Relax. There are other covenants for a reason.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    What a dumb analogy. For one, they don't create/birth souls, they take them. Secondly, there's a difference between being born and dying. When you are born you are a blank slate with no experiences, memories and knowledge. When you die you take the memories of you whole life with you. "Don't invade"? Actually, they kind of do. Every time when a person dies and they appear in the land of the living. For all intents and purposes they kidnap the souls.
    Of course they don't create souls - they can't, it's impossible in their world to have babies, because their world follows different set of rules, which you are unable to accept. Yet, you think it's proper to assume that souls should follow the same rules they do in mortal world, even though the rules of mortal world are completely different. To judge anyone, you have to have some kind of reference point: set of rules and values that are used as a metric. But what if you encounter someone who never followed the same rules and values, and probably even couldn't? Do you think it's fair to judge them on the basis of those metrics, even though they themselves never knew them? On what point - some kind of moral high ground? Because that's exactly what sparks conflicts between cultures and leads to wars. You can't judge Kyrians - as a mortal being, you have no tools to do that. You never lived like one of them and you have no empathy for their way of existence. If you think different, you are the invader.

  4. #204
    Actually they do good. If I had an option chose to erase all my negative memories from my life I would gladly do so. I went through the story and I don't find them offensive at all, they seem really peaceful to me. Except Pelagos weird stories about his gender related stuff, which is actually funny.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Of course they don't create souls - they can't, it's impossible in their world to have babies, because their world follows different set of rules, which you are unable to accept. Yet, you think it's proper to assume that souls should follow the same rules they do in mortal world, even though the rules of mortal world are completely different. To judge anyone, you have to have some kind of reference point: set of rules and values that are used as a metric. But what if you encounter someone who never followed the same rules and values, and probably even couldn't? Do you think it's fair to judge them on the basis of those metrics, even though they themselves never knew them? On what point - some kind of moral high ground? Because that's exactly what sparks conflicts between cultures and leads to wars. You can't judge Kyrians - as a mortal being, you have no tools to do that. You never lived like one of them and you have no empathy for their way of existence. If you think different, you are the invader.
    That's funny. Ironic because that applies to all the souls they forcibly insert into their society. No one would care if they were just minding their own business. They take souls from different realms, of different cultures, different moral codes, different everything and force them into their own way of life. Read the whole thread or at least last 2 pages

  6. #206
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    What a dumb analogy. For one, they don't create/birth souls, they take them. Secondly, there's a difference between being born and dying. When you are born you are a blank slate with no experiences, memories and knowledge. When you die you take the memories of your whole life with you. "Don't invade"? Actually, they kind of do. Every time when a person dies and they appear in the land of the living. For all intents and purposes they kidnap the souls.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you agree that Sylvanas and the Jailer have every right to do what they are planning to do simple because they are powerful enough to do it? Gotcha
    How is that "gotcha"? I agree the Jailer has the right to run the Maw as he see's fit as he is put in charge of it but from the lore so far he was jailed there as well. It doesn't give him the right to break free and kill millions to tip the scales. Same as Sylvannas. I never said might equals right.

    I said you don't get a choice on the matter when it comes to the divine. If there is an afterlife then are some things inherently superior to you with the ability to judge you because they're divine and have a superior moral standpoint and have the ability to see all your actions and potential outcomes of said actions. We are not divine. Neither is the Jailer or Sylvannas. You're going back to moralism again.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    That's funny. Ironic because that applies to all the souls they forcibly insert into their society. No one would care if they were just minding their own business. They take souls from different realms, of different cultures, different moral codes, different everything and force them into their own way of life. Read the whole thread or at least last 2 pages
    That's how their world works, and you need to accept it. It's no different than our own world, yes? Our world too has a set of rules. Sun goes up in the morning, it does down in the evening, we are born and we die, all that stuff. And in their world, souls get to be judged by the Arbiter and, depending on the judgment, go to different realms, where they have to follow rules of that realm. Nobody ever asked you in what culture you'll be born and what rules you'll have to follow. It was all forced on you. You can't decide that since tommorow, sun won't go up in the morning - and the souls can't decide that they will go where they please. But you still cling to your own mortal world rules and try to judge Kyrian based on that. Even if they "force" anything, it's because their world works like that. Sun up, sun down... You get the picture.

  8. #208
    The four factions and the endless adventures that poor souls have over there reminds me of the Island in Lost tv-show.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    How is that "gotcha"? I agree the Jailer has the right to run the Maw as he see's fit as he is put in charge of it but from the lore so far he was jailed there as well. It doesn't give him the right to break free and kill millions to tip the scales. Same as Sylvannas. I never said might equals right.

    I said you don't get a choice on the matter when it comes to the divine. If there is an afterlife then are some things inherently superior to you with the ability to judge you because they're divine and have a superior moral standpoint and have the ability to see all your actions and potential outcomes of said actions. We are not divine. Neither is the Jailer or Sylvannas. You're going back to moralism again.
    Sorry I meant to say "got it", not "gotcha!" Eternal Ones aren't divine, they're just powerful. "They're divine" but what do you actually mean by that? What does it actually mean in WoW's universe? Nothing. Every god can be overthrown like it was shown many many times before. No "god" in WoW is inherently superior to mortals, and especially not morally superior. They're not like the Christian God, who's the source of all creation and the judge and also omnipotent. There's no way to defy him. WoW gods aren't like that. They're more like Greek gods who were just like humans, some were assholes, some were kind. The only difference between them and humans was the powerlevel. So when you say that we shouldn't question gods because they're gods, you're basically saying we shouldn't question gods because they're powerful.

  10. #210
    Bloodsail Admiral Malania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Sorry I meant to say "got it", not "gotcha!" Eternal Ones aren't divine, they're just powerful. "They're divine" but what do you actually mean by that? What does it actually mean in WoW's universe? Nothing. Every god can be overthrown like it was shown many many times before. No "god" in WoW is inherently superior to mortals, and especially not morally superior. They're not like the Christian God, who's the source of all creation and the judge and also omnipotent. There's no way to defy him. WoW gods aren't like that. They're more like Greek gods who were just like humans, some were assholes, some were kind. The only difference between them and humans was the powerlevel. So when you say that we shouldn't question gods because they're gods, you're basically saying we shouldn't question gods because they're powerful.
    Divine is godlike. The Eternal's aren't that from my understanding. The first ones are considered godlike with the power to create and order all the realms (Fel, Death, Void, Light, Arcane and the Universe). They made it all.

    The Eternal's were put in place by the first ones and given the power to run their various realms. The Arbiter was given the ability to see your deeds and soul and judge accordingly so it is a divine power from a divine source. Even if the Arbiter itself is not divine. The first ones are not the same as the Greek gods as they didn't create the universe. They are more in accordance with the Abrahamic religions and their creation myths.
    Last edited by Malania; 2020-12-02 at 01:36 PM.

  11. #211
    I think you people need to take a break from playing the game. If certain themes in the game are causing you this much mental and emotional strain... then take a break.

  12. #212
    The Arbiter already showned to be flawed in it's soul judgement , by sending souls to bastion , when those souls clearly didn't had the spine to pass the horrible "tests" inflicted upon them. Those souls clearly do not want to be Kyrians and beg the Kyrian to stop torturing them.

    Of course , the Kyrians don't give a fuck and force the soul to continue throught their mind erasure and soul torture . Some are forcefully converted and brainwashed still but some also rebel till the end and turn into Forsworns. These Forsworns are then culled and erased from reality , because they are a problem to the Kyrian canon of "The Path"

    You should only be sent to bastion if you have the spine to endure their mind and soul torture , wich is clearly not the case . Some Aspirant Kyrians are showned to mentally break at the slighest challenge , like mere words uttered by the player . Those souls may have been noble in their life but they have no buisness being here and going throught the Kyrians challenges/tortures .

    From that point onward , the entire shadowlands is flawed by default , as souls clearly don't go where they should .
    Last edited by naeblis495; 2020-12-02 at 07:40 PM.

  13. #213
    From the character stand point I'm unsure how the covenants are much better then the maw.

    It seems the choices we are presented with are as follows. Death if ones self, eternal military service, food for a forest god, tortured to become something that will likely feed another part of the shadowlands?

    I don't really see how any of these are major improvements over simply joining the jailer. It's kind of a everything sucks situation for our characters isn't it?

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