Page 4 of 11 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
... LastLast
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from the part where they literally look on and watch Aspirants who fail die (again)?

    All the indicators of dying in the Shadowlands suggest you either then die forever (Ardenweald) or get dumped as trash into the Maw (Revendreth). Either way, they do not treat failure well.

    It’s not a choice the soul makes either, they don’t make it easy to walk away, they just beat you harder into facing the challenges The beatings continue until morale improves. Its also made absolutely clear the Arbiter decides, that you face the trials of Bastion, you either succeed and become a mind wiped slave, forever, or you face some other fate - and seemingly not a good one.
    How does this change anything about the fact that being a part of Bastion is a choice? Because people sometimes fail and die? I mean...okay. People fail and die in Maldraxxus so often that there are literal piles of corpses. Venthyr casually drain souls out of existence. Night Fae choose which souls are "worth" allowing to be reborn. This isn't unique to Bastion.

    I also don't really see any proof anywhere in Bastion that they force you to undergo the trials. Yeah they try to keep you from failing, but they also don't exactly imprison or torture those who fail. The only times they fight the Forsworn are in retaliation from being attacked by them.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  2. #62
    Thats exactly what i was thinking.
    during the story i kept wondering to myself "these bad guys are actually preaching something good, too bad they're killing every1" lol

  3. #63
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    How does this change anything about the fact that being a part of Bastion is a choice? Because people sometimes fail and die? I mean...okay. People fail and die in Maldraxxus so often that there are literal piles of corpses. Venthyr casually drain souls out of existence. Night Fae choose which souls are "worth" allowing to be reborn. This isn't unique to Bastion.

    I also don't really see any proof anywhere in Bastion that they force you to undergo the trials. Yeah they try to keep you from failing, but they also don't exactly imprison or torture those who fail. The only times they fight the Forsworn are in retaliation from being attacked by them.
    The fact that they’re put there by the Arbiter in the first place isn’t a choice.

    The Night Fae swear to protect all the souls until rebirth, it’s only the drought that forces them to make a choice. The souls that end up there are those who’ve done something terrible, but while under the control of others and need to come to terms with it.

    Venthyr don’t just casually drain souls at all, they actually want to see some form of redemption and atonement for the sins of those who land there. Tithing Anima is a part of that and on many levels they seem at some point to accept the necessity of their punishment. One of the NPCs gladly tithes for her partner even. Also they have parties.

    Maldraxxus is another zone I wasn’t fond of, but those who landed there variously relished it and/or got recycled until they were useful. It’s not nice but it never pretended to be.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It’s not a choice the soul makes either
    What makes you believe that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    they don’t make it easy to walk away, they just beat you harder into facing the challenges The beatings continue until morale improves.
    This is false. You have to be ignoring all that is said and happens in the Bastion storyline to think this. Souls that decide to stay in Bastion know what the Path entails and choose to walk it. The anima starvation is causing the ascension to fail, and makes everyone basically feel like shit (as starvation tends to do in real life). And it's exactly because it's supposed to come easy, that they put their recruits through it again and again. It's like flicking a switch and it doesn't work. You flick it a few times again because it's a simple thing that worked before without problem. This is literally said during the quests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Its also made absolutely clear the Arbiter decides, that you face the trials of Bastion, you either succeed and become a mind wiped slave, forever, or you face some other fate - and seemingly not a good one.
    Again this is false, you can even go watch the Uther cinematic to hear them talking about sending him to another covenant because his (also unique) situation is also making him not ascend.

    I'm sorry, but you are ignoring so much that's being said here on these forums, told in-game and shown in the cinematic. Why?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    What people don't want to understand is that : it is DEATH! Dead things have no choice! Their choices are made by death dealers like Kyrians or Necrolords and the like. They didn't even have choice in life as to how they would die, what makes you think that they would have choice after death? Sylavanas is blindly believing that Jailer is trying to give everyone choice but we all know how it is going to end up. Things with power never allow weaker things to have actual meaningful choices. That is what it is. All in all, whether it is living or dead, they have no choice about how they are treated in life and death! Period!
    Seems like these death beings are like living people, and many are complete assholes. I see no reason to help them continue feast on the livings.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    One path
    Posts
    4,202
    There's a very big difference between voluntary servitude and duty via sacrifice and enlightenment compared to forced memory- and identity-wipe to make way for brainwashing to serve and obey without choice altogether. It's pretty easy to see how they became the mawsworn so easily. They're already in some sort of hell as they're not all automatons or peabrained birds of prey. It's like an exercise in why communism doesn't work. You can't eliminate the individual in society and expect individuals to still be accountable.
    Last edited by Tiwack; 2020-11-29 at 11:01 AM.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    There's a very big difference between voluntary servitude and duty via sacrifice and enlightenment compared to forced memory- and identity-wipe to make way for brainwashing to serve and obey without choice altogether.
    Explain to me why that you think it's forced, please. The quests, and Uther cinematic, contradict that statement.

  8. #68
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    What makes you believe that?
    The Arbiter makes that judgment and the Kyrian take them to where the Arbiter decides.

    If you land in Bastion, you are expected to become Kyrian, that’s how it is. You don’t get to walk away, they just push you until you either succeed or you die - as we’re literally shown when a soul, so traumatised by their death to the Legion is killed by the Legion all over again. And would happen to others without our intervention, and presumably happens with unnerving frequency.

    Try to walk away, you get tortured to death like Nikonos. His only out is literally the Forsworn because no alternative exists other than perma-death or some other layer of hell.

    This is false. You have to be ignoring all that is said and happens in the Bastion storyline to think this. Souls that decide to stay in Bastion know what the Path entails and choose to walk it. The anima starvation is causing the ascension to fail, and makes everyone basically feel like shit (as starvation tends to do in real life). And it's exactly because it's supposed to come easy, that they put their recruits through it again and again. It's like flicking a switch and it doesn't work. You flick it a few times again because it's a simple thing that worked before without problem. This is literally said during the quests.
    No, there’s no ‘decision’ to stay in Bastion. You’re there, you do the trial, you pass or you die. The only leniency is that they don’t set a time limit. There’s nowhere even to walk away to if you do give up, and doing so would be defying the Arbiter, which again, isn’t accepted.

    Again this is false, you can even go watch the Uther cinematic to hear them talking about sending him to another covenant because his (also unique) situation is also making him not ascend.

    I'm sorry, but you are ignoring so much that's being said here on these forums, told in-game and shown in the cinematic. Why?
    I’m not ignoring it, I’ve addressed everything. People keep saying people who end up there get there through choice and get to change their mind, which isn’t how it works at all.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The Arbiter makes that judgment and the Kyrian take them to where the Arbiter decides.
    Ok, but based on what do you think the Arbiter places souls into realms?
    A random whim? Or could it perhaps have anything to do with the sum of all choices they had done in life?

    The point is; only souls who are very likely to be alright with making the sacrifice end up there.

  10. #70
    The cinematic of Devos and Uther displayed why it was so important for them to remain unbiased, otherwise you just get people chucked into the Maw for no reason.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  11. #71
    Jessica, you're not presenting any truthful arguments, or arguing any position at all. You're simply making statements which are made up by yourself. Supplanting what's literally being said in text in-game with your own words, and stating your words to be fact, is insanity.

    You're agenda pushing and not here to have an honest conversation. You'll probably just regurgitate the same tone-deaf statements again and again, willfully ignoring whatever arguments that are put up against them.
    Last edited by Elkas; 2020-11-29 at 01:01 PM.

  12. #72
    kyrians are weird.

    in some parts they make it seem you can take the path at your own pace and just take thousands of years to naturally forget and let go of your mortal life.
    but then in a lot of the quests it's straight up torture to achieve their goals.

  13. #73
    Herald of the Titans Jazzhands's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Who knows.
    Posts
    2,990
    Don't you have to agree to become one of the mind-erased soul carrying things? And if you don't you basically just get moved to another realm?

    I can't entirely remember where I read that. But I was under the assumption that the mind-erasing was more of a self sacrifice than a forced one, the type a "for the greater good"/lawful good type of noble soul would likely agree to do, which happens to be the type of souls Bastion seems to get.

    It could be that once the process is started it's either succeed or die, but I don't think the decision to start said process is forced.
    Last edited by Jazzhands; 2020-11-29 at 01:10 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Except a mind wiped Kyrian did that.
    I always understood it as, Uther's soul had a bit of the Maw magic lingering in it and Devos, because of the constant proximity to Uther, got corrupted by it. I don't think either Uther or Devos are 100% guilty in that specific scenario. With Uther's wounded soul there was no way he'd pass the trials, his only purpose in the Bastion was of a ticking bomb. On the other hand, Devos was exposed to magic that's definitely out of her league, and it happened slowly and steadily, so it was hard to notice something is happening.

    If there's one being I would blame, it's the Archon, completely disregarding the threat, not communicating with the other Eternal Ones, not sending any scouts to check on the Maw, not informing Oribos, nothing. She didn't even check on Uther to see if what Devos is saying is true (and as one of those responsible of the Jailer's imprisonment, she would know well what the Maw magic is). And instead of helping Devos get rid of her doubts and set her on the right path again (as we've seen throughout the questing there are ways), she just demands she stands in line and shuts her off.

    The Archon talked about the Bastion's duty to the Shadowlands, yet she failed in that regard tremendously.
    Last edited by TickTickTick; 2020-11-29 at 02:54 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Because without them the whole machinery won't work?
    Sometimes it helps if you try to see the bigger picture.

    Who would you rather have serve your food?
    a) A truly neutral person
    b) somebody with baggage, who might judge you or even hate you on their past experiences
    I would take B because i rather not have a braindead slave making my food.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I would take B because i rather not have a braindead slave making my food.
    the braindead slave might be less inclined to piss on your plate.
    but then, you might be too woke to stop people from expressing themselves. like pissing on your plate.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  17. #77
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    19,380
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    Jessica, you're not presenting any truthful arguments, or arguing any position at all. You're simply making statements which are made up by yourself. Supplanting what's literally being said in text in-game with your own words, and stating your words to be fact, is insanity.

    You're agenda pushing and not here to have an honest conversation. You'll probably just regurgitate the same tone-deaf statements again and again, willfully ignoring whatever arguments that are put up against them.
    I state what actually happens, all I get in return is "those who are chosen would be malleable to that sort of existence, and because of that it somehow makes it really their choice"; when it's never their choice, they're just picked from a pool because the Arbiter thinks they'll be sufficiently malleable to turn to that cause, with enough conditioning.

    Then we watch the conditioning, first hand, and what do we see?
    - Conscripts left to die facing their traumas because they're not good enough.
    - Conscripts tortured into keeping going.
    - Forced erasure of memories of family and traditions.
    - Forced radical alteration of appearances to make everyone look the same
    - Eternal tying to a task of carrying others' souls to their next place.
    - Leading through a series of re-education camps to be taught how what they're doing is "for the greater good."

    None of that, for me, is worth the personal cost and loss. And there's no sign of anyone saying it's okay to leave.

  18. #78
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    One path
    Posts
    4,202
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    Explain to me why that you think it's forced, please. The quests, and Uther cinematic, contradict that statement.
    You don't see how they get the souls that are most hardcore about duty and command them to forget all about their old duty in order to fulfill a new duty in their afterlife? It's a recipe for disaster and unbelievable this could've worked at any point altogether.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I would take B because i rather not have a braindead slave making my food.
    In a world where 90% of beings hold some grudge against you, you would swallow a lot of extra-sauce that way...
    Oh, you support the ebon blade, who raided light's hope chapel? Have some spit in your drink.
    Oh, you sided with the scriers, who i disagree with? Have some piss with your soup.
    You agreed with sylvanus? Ain't nothing like some extra self-produced brown salsa for ya!
    Or in shadowlands terms; straight to revendreth, some torture might do you good OR to the maw if they had a bad day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiwack View Post
    You don't see how they get the souls that are most hardcore about duty and command them to forget all about their old duty in order to fulfill a new duty in their afterlife? It's a recipe for disaster and unbelievable this could've worked at any point altogether.
    In Azeroth duty usually ends with death. Just look at any character to this day who got revived; they all chose new callings at that time.
    There is no hardcore-command over the course of Kyrian initiation. It's about meditation and getting to terms with it; thus forgetting about it.
    Heck it beats:
    a) being turned into a vegetable at the mercy of some childish fairy
    b) being turned into a body-less soul getting tortured by vampires on a daily basis
    c) being forced into endless battles

    I mean; just how many of the other covenants have you seen souls progress in?
    - Ardenwead: a total of 1 souls with a lot of effort by a 3rd party
    - Revendreth: no soul has ascended that we know of; except for Kael, who will do so with extensive effort by the adventurers
    - Maldraxus: This one has notably the most "ascended" characters; albeit most of them actually fought for peace in their life and got thrown into yet another endless conflict.
    Last edited by Zmagoslav; 2020-11-30 at 07:57 AM.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    In a world where 90% of beings hold some grudge against you, you would swallow a lot of extra-sauce that way...
    Oh, you support the ebon blade, who raided light's hope chapel? Have some spit in your drink.
    Oh, you sided with the scriers, who i disagree with? Have some piss with your soup.
    You agreed with sylvanus? Ain't nothing like some extra self-produced brown salsa for ya!
    Or in shadowlands terms; straight to revendreth, some torture might do you good OR to the maw if they had a bad day.
    Yep, I would rather deal with real people then some lobotomized slaves.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •