The Runecarver is the Primus

[Chickat]

Do you think the Primus is dead or just missing?

[DeltrusDisc]

He was a fool then. He toyed with powers beyond his understanding and was punished as a result. What's the saying, again? "Don't play with fire."

These Eternal Ones are so stupid, Jailer included. You'd think that such "eternal beings" would have more cunning/wisdom.

Sadly they're created by Blizzard, you know, humans.

[Synros]

I think it's always been extremely obvious that the Runecarver is the Primus. The Primus mysteriously went missing, and the Runecarver in a mysterious character who's lost his memory.

1+1=2...

[Shaetha]

You realize I was talking about the eye color of the 'pantheon' beings of each realm.

Don't blame others for your mistakes. Someone getting irritated with you for being what they consider excessively obtuse is not their fault. You getting irritated at being misunderstood is 100% your fault. You openly acknowledge you were misunderstood, and you were very clearly irritated.

To reply to your point: I don't think eye color means anything. Eye color changes for drama in WoW.

[Alanar]

People who think that the finger thing matters to Blizzard "Kilrogg Doubleskull" Entertainment are kidding themselves. Sure, the Runecarver could be someone else, but given that there's literally one other named character of that calibre mentioned and that person just so happens to have last been seen going after the Maw and being aware of the baddie's plan, I'd say it's pretty obvious who he is. Sure, the Man in the Iron Mask take with the Jailer is fun, but Blizz don't do that sort of thing.

Yea, its silly. Its more an oversight then an actuall thing we found out or something.

[Shaetha]

The Primus disappeared recently, as Draka herself died only a few decades ago and remembers the Primus. Runecarver has been imprisoned for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

According to whom was the runecarver imprisoned for years? I genuinely don't know, but I need the answer to be an ally that isn't the runecarver for this to be a valid argument.

[Synros]

The Primus disappeared recently, as Draka herself died only a few decades ago and remembers the Primus. Runecarver has been imprisoned for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

You have to remember that time functions a lot differently in the Shadowlands. The inhabitants there have no concept of time like the living do. What would be a day for us, could be 1 year for them, and visa versa.

[Very Tired]

The Primus disappeared recently, as Draka herself died only a few decades ago and remembers the Primus. Runecarver has been imprisoned for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

I think I remember Thrall and the others mentioning how they couldn't tell how long they have been in The Maw before us players arrived there. It must be some major difference in time there.

[qwerty123456]

After running through the Maldraxxus to Ardenweald again and hearing Bolvar say the helm still resonates with the power of the maw what if the Runecarver is Zovaal and the betrayal the Primus was talking about was forging shit with the power of the maw?

We don't know when helm of domination was crafted and we only have the runecarvers words " I was used by him. The Jailer, they call him. Used to make... to make... Hmm. My memories. Did you take them? No. He took them.
Runecarver says: Used me for his purpose. Then left me here. Bereft of memory for... how long? It matters not. Time, after all, is not a construct of Death." to go on for what he crafted. What if the Jailer/Eternal Ones had tricked Zovaal into making the very chains that bound him in order to stop him? He could have even been the one to remove his own memories in order to infest the Jailer and others with his will which would explain why you can find them all over the place and not locked up somewhere.

Also Ve'nari even warns us: "Before you do so, I offer a word of warning.

No creature imprisoned in that place should be trusted. Tread carefully, mortal.

After all, it would be a shame to lose so valuable a business partner."

It would explain why he kinda has similar vibes to the Primus but also looks different. And if they were brothers it would explain why both were great crafters one went dark and the other devoted themselves to protecting the shadowlands.

[HitRefresh]

Which says nothing about the Shadowlands' denizens changing eye color depending on which zone they're in. Kyrians/Venthyr/whatever trapped in Torghast have the same eye color as Kyrians/Venthyr/whatever everywhere else.

Also lots of stuff in the Maw with blue glowing eyes including the Jailer, which doesn't correlate with the image

- - - Updated - - -

The 5 fingers vs 4 fingers things isn't a point to consider. Remember that the souls that go into the maw (and other realms of the Shadowlands) sometimes have their forms changed.

All of the Jailer' army? Once souls from other worlds, likely some of his guards were once on Azeroth. Other souls refused to work with him even after all their torture, and were chained up inside Torghast. Keeping these 'innocent' souls there means more beings are likely to try and rescue them, meaning potentially more powerful souls for the Jailer, some who may not be so difficult to break or convert.

As such, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that the Primus form changed after being in the maw for so long. He's presented as being a master weaponsmith and master tactician, with unrivalled might. That's a perfect soul to chain up and drain anima from for a very long time.

People might think "If he was so powerful, he wouldn't have been caught", but we saw even Sargeras be taken away from Azeroth by Illidan and the titans. If the Jailor had help from the darker forces of the cosmos, it's entirely possible that the Primus was caught and chained up in order to allow those same forces to try and overthrow the balance in the constant power struggle that goes on in the cosmos.

Another possibility is that the Jailer and the Primus are aspects of the same being - akin to the Night Warrior and Elune, but which were split apart by some higher power for their own ends. Both have similar traits: Capable of commanding a vast army, revered by their followers, master tacticians, incredibly strong, capable of forging incredible weapons, and seemingly able to oversee their entire domain. In regards to weapons, I feel that the Jailer's weapons are the chains, which seem to hold onto and drain souls rather than inflicting physical wounds.

Look at the art book. The concept art of The Runecarver has 4 fingers.

They changed it to 5 on the model for whatever reason, but now you have a concrete reason for the statue having 4 fingers.

Photo from Wowhead for reference:

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/989886.jpg

[ldev]

Notice how somebody else DID provide a source? Yeah try that next time instead of ranting and insulting.

Good for him to provide a source. If I was required to provide source that grass is green or sky is blue, I'd say "piss off idiot".


So yeah, if you debate like this in other subjects - people don't prove you wrong with sources not because you're right, but because they just can't be bothered. It's you, not everyone else.

[Varodoc]

Sadly they're created by Blizzard, you know, humans.

Doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of smart/cunning/manipulative supernatural characters in Warcraft, it's just that these Eternal Ones are dumb. Did the Primus really think he could single-handedly take on the Jailer? Did he think he could play hero and save the entire cosmos all by himself? Is he an ancient cosmic entity or a young fool?

He played with forces he couldn't understand and paid for it dearly, simple enough.

[david0925]

Right now they are making it painfully obvious that the Runecarver is the Primus. Hopefully there is a plot twist that makes sense that he isn't.

As for the argument that people are presenting about time, they are really trying to sell the narrative that time is meaningless in the Shadowlands and that especially souls in the maw are tortured without end that they completely lose sense of time.

[Venziir]

I honestly doubt it, the Primus has been missing for a short time, where as the Runecarver seems to be this ancient being that has been trapped down there for an eternity.

[bowlink]

Right now they are making it painfully obvious that the Runecarver is the Primus. Hopefully there is a plot twist that makes sense that he isn't.

As for the argument that people are presenting about time, they are really trying to sell the narrative that time is meaningless in the Shadowlands and that especially souls in the maw are tortured without end that they completely lose sense of time.

I actually think the runecarver is the jailer atleast the bit that ankers him to the maw.

And the more we give back his memory and break his chains the more we unleash the jailer

[Raisei]

This was my take too.

Another point of evidence is that the Rune Carver is the one that made Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. Who would be better in making these powerful necromantic items then the ruler of Maldraxxus?
The Jailer does not seem to posess necromantic powers as far as we have seen. He has his chains and can turn souls into his Mawsworn, but he hasn't used undead creatures.

Apart from that the Primus is obviously a very gifted rune smith, having made the Rune Blade that opens the Seat of the Primus.

[Enter Name Here]

perhaps the jailer somehow traded places with the runesmith/primus?
in the launch cinematic you could see the jailer chained up in a similar setup. maybe it's the exact same chains.

[DeltrusDisc]

Doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of smart/cunning/manipulative supernatural characters in Warcraft, it's just that these Eternal Ones are dumb. Did the Primus really think he could single-handedly take on the Jailer? Did he think he could play hero and save the entire cosmos all by himself? Is he an ancient cosmic entity or a young fool?

He played with forces he couldn't understand and paid for it dearly, simple enough.

Fair.
I think all the good writers have gone, as we've noticed a distinct decline in clever, smart characters and their choices. Everything is painfully obvious. Hardly anything is a surprise anymore.

[THEORACLE64]

Thrall is Ragnaros logic confirmed

Not at all, seeing as they're clearly totally separate characters.

The voice is the same, the model is the same, the story in that we work with all of the covenant leaders, he conveniently has his memories wiped (that we are gradually restoring) and the fact the Primus is missing and this is the only other main character we interact with outside of that.

It's intentionally obvious that he's the primus.

[Aucald]

Doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of smart/cunning/manipulative supernatural characters in Warcraft, it's just that these Eternal Ones are dumb. Did the Primus really think he could single-handedly take on the Jailer? Did he think he could play hero and save the entire cosmos all by himself? Is he an ancient cosmic entity or a young fool?

He played with forces he couldn't understand and paid for it dearly, simple enough.

I never really thought the Primus went to confront the Jailer singly-handedly - more I think his investigations hit on something the Jailer didn't want the Primus to know, and the Jailer used his agents (such as Sire Denathrius) to take the Primus by surprise.